Does Backhand English Reduce Deflection?
- Thread starter LastTwo
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drivermaker
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LastTwo said:
Backhand english is the answer to deflection.
LastTwo said:
I have argued that the two are exactly the same. All the angles are identical, just that players arrive at the same position by two different alignment methods.
The only difference is if a swooping across the face of the ball motion is used, which it commonly is by players in order to reduce deflection, or learn to judge it more accurately.
See diagram below which attempt to show that the end point for both BHE and parallel english, i.e. The bridge position, ball contact wit cue, angle of deflection is identical.
The confusion arises over the fact that there appears to be no deflection for BHE from the alignment method through the center of the ball with cue at different angle. Paralel aligners could rotate their cue to the center ball position and see they are aligned to the contact point too.
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There is going to be a war over semantics here...I can smell it.
Some points to try to clarify things as I see them.
1. Parallel English as some people call the alternanative or typical method of just lining up with english, should never be parallel, unless you like missing.
2. Back Hand English still requires hitting straight through the cue ball, not swiping or swooping across it.
Right DM? Fred?
Some points to try to clarify things as I see them.
1. Parallel English as some people call the alternanative or typical method of just lining up with english, should never be parallel, unless you like missing.
2. Back Hand English still requires hitting straight through the cue ball, not swiping or swooping across it.
Right DM? Fred?
Colin is correct - they are the same (imagine a little man sitting on the cue during the stroke, both methods will look the same to him).
The difference though, is in your aiming and setup. Depends whats easier for you to use and master. With backhand you needn't go through the tortured calculation of amount of deflection per amount of force used. With parallel English you can use the exact same setup and stroke each time. You get what you pay for.
The difference though, is in your aiming and setup. Depends whats easier for you to use and master. With backhand you needn't go through the tortured calculation of amount of deflection per amount of force used. With parallel English you can use the exact same setup and stroke each time. You get what you pay for.
It negates defelection. I didn't believe it until I was told to set up a shot and test it out.
I placed the cue ball on the foot spot. Line up the shot like you are trying to go perfectly straight up and down the table so the cue ball comes back to hit the tip. Now with your backhand pivot as far left or right as you want and strike the cue ball. It will still go perfectly straight down the table until it hits the rail obviously.
Koop
I placed the cue ball on the foot spot. Line up the shot like you are trying to go perfectly straight up and down the table so the cue ball comes back to hit the tip. Now with your backhand pivot as far left or right as you want and strike the cue ball. It will still go perfectly straight down the table until it hits the rail obviously.
Koop
Colin Colenso said:
If backhand english requires you to go straight thru the ball, albeit from a different angle than centerball alignment, what is the system called that I see some pros using where they swoop left or right of the ball when they use sidespin? I've never seen anyone do that using center, only when they apply left or right english.
drivermaker
Banned
LastTwo said:
That's also backhand english. Just another way of applying it.
LastTwo said:
It is often called Tuck & Roll, or sometimes just refered to as swiping or swooping...or maybe I made up swooping...swiping is a better term I think.
Here is a thread on Tuck & Roll http://www.azbilliards.com/vbulletin/upload/showthread.php?t=8967&highlight=tuck
Swiping actually pushes the CB further away from the path of deflection. It might cause problems with low deflection cues but be very useful for higher deflection cues.
Also, swiping can increase the English that can be applied without causing a miscue. This is also true with draw, where you might call swiping diving instead as the tip travels more downward as it hits the CB.
Edit: And yes, it's effectively a form of Backhand English, executed with a swipe. Though it will require slightly different aiming that straight cueing Bankhand English.
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drivermaker
Banned
Colin Colenso said:
Well Colin...it's true that Tuck & Roll is a form of backhand english and works that way...but the way you apply or perform it is a little different.
Backhand
I don't know about everyone else, but the only time I use backhand english is when I need to apply extreme english. I disregard cue ball deflection cause I believe that is almost nil, and deflection reduction is not the goal. However there is much greater shaft deflection.
I do not use it for the purpose of minimizing cue ball deflection, only to apply greater english effects.
I don't know about everyone else, but the only time I use backhand english is when I need to apply extreme english. I disregard cue ball deflection cause I believe that is almost nil, and deflection reduction is not the goal. However there is much greater shaft deflection.
I do not use it for the purpose of minimizing cue ball deflection, only to apply greater english effects.
LastTwo said:
I believe the Beard called that "swooping into the english." I call it "dynamic backhand english." The Filipinos might be describing this when they say "Carabao English."
In the end, at the moment of contact, it's the same as backhand english. I don't think the added motion adds or detracts. Those who can control it, more power to them.
Fred
I think the only way this works is if you subconsciously blend your speed and elevation such that squirt and swerve cancel out. If people can do this consistently, then they don't have to worry about anything. Lots of people swear they are doing parallel aiming, so it mustn't be out of the question.Colin Colenso said:
It doesn't require straight through shooting, but it's more easier
, IMO, to shoot straight through. Others I've seen who are ton better than I'll ever be seem to have no problem swooping, swerving, tucking & rolling, etc. Fred
LastTwo said:
I think the term deflection needs to be defined in this case.
Are you talking about "shaft" deflection, or are you talking about "ball" squirt.
My logic...(which may be wrong) tells me that shafts deflect, balls squirt.
That being said...I don't know the physics behind it, but my personal findings are that using BHE you get "more" spin....this lets you stay closer to center ball which will in turn reduce the adjustments for "ball squirt" even more.
With paralell english you "must" adjust for "squirt"...Once you know how to apply BHE with your specific cue...BHE adjust for "squirt" for you...
Fred....aka cornerman posted a specific shot that I think helps you understand and get the "feel" for BHE......It's a straight in simple shot that you hit using BHE and the CB will sit in place spinning like a top....
Interesting thread. I agree with Colin. Backhand and parallel english are exactly the same thing, but ONLY at the points of contact. In backhand english, the cue tip contacts the cue ball in a "swooping" motion, while in parallel english it contacts the cue ball in straight trajectory. Although the paths to the cue ball and follow throughs are different in both cases, the exact moments of contact are exactly the same. The point of contact between the cue tip and the cue ball, and also the direction of the "force vector" (if you like physics) applied to the cue ball are identical for BHE and PE. Therefore, both will squirt (I like using "squirt" instead of "deflection") exactly the same amount (of course assuming both strokes are done with equal force). As Williebetmore concisely put, the only practical differences from the shooter's perspective are the alignment and setup (and of course the way you stroke the ball).
*NOTE - My definition of backhand english is imparting a swooping motion with the backhand. To me, going straight through the ball, no matter the setup and alignment, should still be considered parallel english.
*NOTE - My definition of backhand english is imparting a swooping motion with the backhand. To me, going straight through the ball, no matter the setup and alignment, should still be considered parallel english.
Hi Fred,Cornerman said:I think the only way this works is if you subconsciously blend your speed and elevation such that squirt and swerve cancel out. If people can do this consistently, then they don't have to worry about anything. Lots of people swear they are doing parallel aiming, so it mustn't be out of the question.
It doesn't require straight through shooting, but it's more easier
Fred
I don't know of any cue that has zero deflection when played off-center, so therefore the line the CB will take must diverge from the line of the cue. That's why I think, that when people say they are aligning parallel, that they are mistaken. A lot of people say they are doing or achieving things they are not or cannot.
On swooping, I think this is a kind of naturally adapted Backhand English. A lot of players who actually think they are cueing straight and hitting center ball do this to turn the OB to the truer angle, eliminating the throw. Also helps them to align when playing with purposeful heavy english as they are looking at the line more through the center line when aligning. I've seen a lot of snooker players who do this quite well.
Not starting a snooker argument
jsp said:
Hi jsp,
I think Backhand English should really be called something like Backhand Alignment for English. It is really an alignment methodolgy, not a type of English.
Some players use this method cueing straight through english and others with the swoop.
It may make more sense to say swoop english is a different type of english.
Koop said:
It may simply be part of my stroke more often than I think, I'm just not aware of it except in those intentional extreme shots. Though I would say there are many different stokes we use to accomplish different tasks. Auther "Babe" Cranfield who was my teacher used it quite regularly, so probably picked it up from him. He would actually move his bridge in a twist like fashion at times as I also catch myself doing. Generally speaking there are probably lots of things we do when we play pool that we are not aware of, and backhand english is one for me. I just used it and never defined it kinda like naming an aiming systems.