Does Backhand English Reduce Deflection?
- Thread starter LastTwo
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Well, if you really want lessons and want to take it from a person who knows Efren's game as well as anyone in this country, call Alex at Shooters in Riverside.Zorro said:
You might be able to convince him to have some lessons.
909-785-9588
Alex also knows how Efren aims. No gimmicks and claims from some other person who claims to have taken lessons from Efren.
Heck, even Alex's stick is the same brand and taper than Efren's.
It should since Efren took his stick.
titlistsucker
Deceased
Efren doesnt coaches as far as i know.. but he likes to give advice.. but u have to know Tagalog though.. Saw him at one of the San Miguel Asian 9 Ball tours where he dropped by Singapore. 
Zorro said:
It is all personal preference...I mainly use the Aim and Pivot method...However there are times...(usually longish shots) where I know I really need to stay center CB and make sure I make the OB, but at the same time I really need to have some left or right to lengthen or shorten the angle off the rail......In this type of case I will set up for a center ball and make sure I swipe just a little to the needed side of the CB to make sure it does not "kill" off the rail, but not enough to bring "squirt" into the equation.......(Hopefully this made sense)
titlistsucker
Deceased
btw it will be a futile effort for u to imitate his stroke and does nothing for your game.. He uses a pumping Pinoy kinda stroke, but not as pronounced as Bustamante..
If u want to imitate any player, try Yang.. Very orthodox and effective.
i dont claim that he coaches me.. just gave me some advice thats all..
If u want to imitate any player, try Yang.. Very orthodox and effective.
i dont claim that he coaches me.. just gave me some advice thats all..
Hi Pete...I don't know if I fully understand what you're saying here. Are you saying that the ball skids less if you apply draw on the ball? And are you saying throw and squirt or the same thing? I'd have to disagree on those points, but maybe i'm just misunderstanding you.pete lafond said:
You're absolutely right! Talking about all this technical crap probably won't help your game a single bit, or maybe it will help some people. But it is certainly interesting and fun to talk about for a few of us. I think that's why pool is such a unique and profoundly intricate game. I don't think there's any coincidence that the majority of the pool players are technically minded. But then again, if you have the sheer natural talent, you don't have to be technically minded at all? You don't need to analyze all the angles, coefficients of friction, angular momentums, tangent lines...etc. Some people just go by pure intuition and they play the game at a world class level. I doubt Efren analyzes all this stuff at the level of detail of this thread...I don't know if he even finished elementary school. But he's the best player in the world because of his extraordinary talent, intuition, and experience. Last I check, i don't think any of the world champions had degrees in physics.pete lafond said:
drivermaker
Banned
jsp said:
Don't get your spirits up over something that means absolutely nothing other than the fact that dark colors blend in with the original post and it's hard to determine who said what when responding.
If you ever strike a nerve with me, the red you see will be your blood.
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drivermaker
Banned
Zorro said:
Now why on Earth would you make a post like this, when you just said in a previous post, "I've tried to do the swiping/swooping described by others here and I cannot imagine why anyone would want to do this. I can get all the english I could ever want doing it my way".
Hey...if that's the case...keep doing it YOUR way and stay at the level you are and have always been. Why bother??
Swiping and swooping should come more natural to you than anyone else on here. YOU'RE ZORRO FOR CHRISSAKE!!! If you can swipe and swoop with your sword to carve a "Z" in somebodys shirt or on the back of their ass...C'MON!!
He told me in person
Efren just said that you line up the shot like your shooting a stop shot and rotate or pivot from your bridge for whatever english that you want to put on it.
In other words your stroke goes straight through the CB at an angle to the original aim line. It's much easier to show than to tell. HE SHOWED it to me. I ignored him for THREE YEARS. Don;t let ANYONE tell you that it doesn't work. IT DOES. Just practice your stroke and make sure your original aimline is correct. If your missing, even using a predator, it's either because your original CP to CP aimline was off or your stroke wasn't straight on the stroke line.
Zorro said:
Efren just said that you line up the shot like your shooting a stop shot and rotate or pivot from your bridge for whatever english that you want to put on it.
In other words your stroke goes straight through the CB at an angle to the original aim line. It's much easier to show than to tell. HE SHOWED it to me. I ignored him for THREE YEARS. Don;t let ANYONE tell you that it doesn't work. IT DOES. Just practice your stroke and make sure your original aimline is correct. If your missing, even using a predator, it's either because your original CP to CP aimline was off or your stroke wasn't straight on the stroke line.
Alex translated for me.
Efren was visiting Alex when he told me and Alex translated. although when Efren's sitting there showing me what he's doing and explaining it, even in tagalog it's pretty easy to follow.
titlistsucker said:Efren doesnt coaches as far as i know.. but he likes to give advice.. but u have to know Tagalog though.. Saw him at one of the San Miguel Asian 9 Ball tours where he dropped by Singapore.
Efren was visiting Alex when he told me and Alex translated. although when Efren's sitting there showing me what he's doing and explaining it, even in tagalog it's pretty easy to follow.
TEchnical crap
I'm hearing people on this forum say that talking all this technical crap is USeless?
That is the dumbest thing I've ever heard. I'll tell anyone, ANYONE right now that if you don't understand these concepts you cannot play great pool.
In answer to someone's previous post about collision induced deflection, yes when a cueball strikes abother ball, the CB stays in contact with the OB and causes some deviance, what I said though is that with NO SPIN on the ball that is the desired aim point. NOT the desired contact point. If you're using parallel shift then you need to manually adjust for that, but not when you're using aim and pivot or BHE.
Let me explain why. First if there is no spin on the CB at the point of contact the amount of time that the contact takes place is negligable, therefore the deviance is also negligable.
Second, when there is spin, the spin will counteract the effect by imparting opposite spin on the OB. For instance, if you apply right hand english on a corner shot into the far left corner the CB will be spinning CC. When it makes contact with the OB it does two things. First, The CB will maintain contact longer with the OB because the spin will throw the ball to the left , second, it imparts a slight amount of closckwise spin on the OB. Yes, this longer contact would normally cut the angle shorter; however, You have to remember that the contact point is no longer the same as the aimpoint because of squirt.
This compensates for the longer duration of contact.
Now for the usefullness of this knowledge. Anyone who tries to tell me that this knowledge isn't absolutely necesary in playing excellent pool, I will tell to go pound sand.
This is why. Say you have a nineball sitting in the middle of the back rail and you are shooting on the eight in the side.
You screwed up on your shape on the eight and are dead straight in. Now if the eight was sitting right in the pocket you could cheat the pocket for your shape but if you're 12 inches out and the CB is another 12 inches from the eight you're screwed. IF you understand all of these concepts then you know that you can aim straight in and pivot to the one oclock position on the CB and if you stroke straight through not only will the eight go, but the CB will follow into the far rail and spin up toward the right corner for shape on the nine.
This is just an example but for high level play you should know exactly where that CB is going to go and to do that you have to understand all of these concepts because the contact point will be different and therefore the CB will not follow the original Tangent line. Sure you do develop a feel for it and there is really no way to get around the necesity for some type of practice and feel; but to say that learning about these concepts is useless is asinine!
I thought for THREE YEARS that this system couldn't possibly work. I didn't even try it. Efren Reyes told it to me and I still didn't believe it. I'm sorry but you're wrong you can come up with all of the excuses in the world of physics for why it shouldn't work and why it should be different on different tables and felts and cues but that doesn't change the fact that it does work.
I Taught a friend right after PHJ came out. I taught him for 6 months and he became an A- player, now he's a 9 in the apa. Don't tell me there are no shortcuts. Have you been playing for 2 years and are a 9 in the APA?
I personally don't play in leagues and could care less to start, but you can't argue with those results.
This friend had bought a predator pool cue and stated that he couldn't use the aim pivot system with that cue. he said that this was because the predator cues have less deflection. I said let me see that cue and let him play with one of my Mcdermotts while I tried this predator. The system worked just fine with the predator. I played no differently with it than with my own cue. In fact I told my friend this and challenged him to try it again but to make sure that he stroked straight through the ball. It worked for him as well.
I ended up taking the predator and he kept the McDermott, but I was just using it as a break cue.
Yes to get to that level you have to have a good visual spatial ability and a lot of practice, but to say that having that knowledge or talking about it in this thread is just thearetical is ridiculous.
I want to say something else here as well. When I started playing seriously about 12 years ago, I watched a couple videos on basics and read I think one book, beyond that and what Efren told me that one time I have learned everything I have stated here on my own. Now mind you at one point I was playing 10-15 hours a day six days a week, but I discovered squirt and throw on my OWN through years of practice. I ended up learning the terms through various people and until coming to this site I didn't know the term squirt.
The point here is that people shouldn't have to go through years of playing hours a day to figure out these concepts. We as pool players should be willing to share our knowledge with them and help to bolster the sport. Hell, I don't blame people for not making pool bigger than it has been when people are so adverse to giving out knowledge or helping the poorer players. NO most pool players just suffice it to take their money until they don't want to play any more. Maybe it's easier for me to say that since I don't play for money, but come on, this attitude is what keeps pool from being huge. I mean it's an awesome game that's inexpensive and fun to play, especially when you can get better at it. There is no better feeling than breaking and running out and not letting your opponent even step up to the table.
Understanding the concepts is the important thing, not the terminology. We use squirt and throw but what we really mean is the tendency of the cue to push the CB off line when stroking through it off center and the tendency of two balls making contact with spin throwing off the line of intersection through extended contact. The terms used to describe those definitions don't matter as long as the person understands the concepts and the ramifications of their use. To truly play the game correctly though you NEED to understand those concepts.
To say no just play the game and learn through practice is asinine, you WON'T learn to play the game that way. You WON'T know where the CB is going to go even if you are able to pocket balls. Atleast not without playing for hours and hours a day and for years and years while paying serious attention to what is happening on the table.
I'm hearing people on this forum say that talking all this technical crap is USeless?
That is the dumbest thing I've ever heard. I'll tell anyone, ANYONE right now that if you don't understand these concepts you cannot play great pool.
In answer to someone's previous post about collision induced deflection, yes when a cueball strikes abother ball, the CB stays in contact with the OB and causes some deviance, what I said though is that with NO SPIN on the ball that is the desired aim point. NOT the desired contact point. If you're using parallel shift then you need to manually adjust for that, but not when you're using aim and pivot or BHE.
Let me explain why. First if there is no spin on the CB at the point of contact the amount of time that the contact takes place is negligable, therefore the deviance is also negligable.
Second, when there is spin, the spin will counteract the effect by imparting opposite spin on the OB. For instance, if you apply right hand english on a corner shot into the far left corner the CB will be spinning CC. When it makes contact with the OB it does two things. First, The CB will maintain contact longer with the OB because the spin will throw the ball to the left , second, it imparts a slight amount of closckwise spin on the OB. Yes, this longer contact would normally cut the angle shorter; however, You have to remember that the contact point is no longer the same as the aimpoint because of squirt.
This compensates for the longer duration of contact.
Now for the usefullness of this knowledge. Anyone who tries to tell me that this knowledge isn't absolutely necesary in playing excellent pool, I will tell to go pound sand.
This is why. Say you have a nineball sitting in the middle of the back rail and you are shooting on the eight in the side.
You screwed up on your shape on the eight and are dead straight in. Now if the eight was sitting right in the pocket you could cheat the pocket for your shape but if you're 12 inches out and the CB is another 12 inches from the eight you're screwed. IF you understand all of these concepts then you know that you can aim straight in and pivot to the one oclock position on the CB and if you stroke straight through not only will the eight go, but the CB will follow into the far rail and spin up toward the right corner for shape on the nine.
This is just an example but for high level play you should know exactly where that CB is going to go and to do that you have to understand all of these concepts because the contact point will be different and therefore the CB will not follow the original Tangent line. Sure you do develop a feel for it and there is really no way to get around the necesity for some type of practice and feel; but to say that learning about these concepts is useless is asinine!
I thought for THREE YEARS that this system couldn't possibly work. I didn't even try it. Efren Reyes told it to me and I still didn't believe it. I'm sorry but you're wrong you can come up with all of the excuses in the world of physics for why it shouldn't work and why it should be different on different tables and felts and cues but that doesn't change the fact that it does work.
I Taught a friend right after PHJ came out. I taught him for 6 months and he became an A- player, now he's a 9 in the apa. Don't tell me there are no shortcuts. Have you been playing for 2 years and are a 9 in the APA?
I personally don't play in leagues and could care less to start, but you can't argue with those results.
This friend had bought a predator pool cue and stated that he couldn't use the aim pivot system with that cue. he said that this was because the predator cues have less deflection. I said let me see that cue and let him play with one of my Mcdermotts while I tried this predator. The system worked just fine with the predator. I played no differently with it than with my own cue. In fact I told my friend this and challenged him to try it again but to make sure that he stroked straight through the ball. It worked for him as well.
I ended up taking the predator and he kept the McDermott, but I was just using it as a break cue.
Yes to get to that level you have to have a good visual spatial ability and a lot of practice, but to say that having that knowledge or talking about it in this thread is just thearetical is ridiculous.
I want to say something else here as well. When I started playing seriously about 12 years ago, I watched a couple videos on basics and read I think one book, beyond that and what Efren told me that one time I have learned everything I have stated here on my own. Now mind you at one point I was playing 10-15 hours a day six days a week, but I discovered squirt and throw on my OWN through years of practice. I ended up learning the terms through various people and until coming to this site I didn't know the term squirt.
The point here is that people shouldn't have to go through years of playing hours a day to figure out these concepts. We as pool players should be willing to share our knowledge with them and help to bolster the sport. Hell, I don't blame people for not making pool bigger than it has been when people are so adverse to giving out knowledge or helping the poorer players. NO most pool players just suffice it to take their money until they don't want to play any more. Maybe it's easier for me to say that since I don't play for money, but come on, this attitude is what keeps pool from being huge. I mean it's an awesome game that's inexpensive and fun to play, especially when you can get better at it. There is no better feeling than breaking and running out and not letting your opponent even step up to the table.
Understanding the concepts is the important thing, not the terminology. We use squirt and throw but what we really mean is the tendency of the cue to push the CB off line when stroking through it off center and the tendency of two balls making contact with spin throwing off the line of intersection through extended contact. The terms used to describe those definitions don't matter as long as the person understands the concepts and the ramifications of their use. To truly play the game correctly though you NEED to understand those concepts.
To say no just play the game and learn through practice is asinine, you WON'T learn to play the game that way. You WON'T know where the CB is going to go even if you are able to pocket balls. Atleast not without playing for hours and hours a day and for years and years while paying serious attention to what is happening on the table.
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parallel shift
I didn't really explain why parallel shift requires manual adjustment and BHE doens't, so here goes.
When you parallel shift what you are doing is shifting the line of the cuestick on a parallel line with the original aimline, because of this the cuestick will stay in contact with the CB for a longer period of time than with BHE.
By pivoting from the original bridge position you reduce the amount of deflection by limiting the amount of time that the cuestick makes contact with the CB. This makes adjusting manually not necesary. Using BHE also imparts more spin on the CB. It does this because when using parallel shift the Stick maintains contact longer and therefore PUSHES the spin out of the CB that it would normally impart on it. It is this combination of increased spin and reduced squirt that allows automatic adjustment for squirt and throw.
If you doubt it just try it, but make sure you are stroking straight through the CB before you write it off.
I didn't really explain why parallel shift requires manual adjustment and BHE doens't, so here goes.
When you parallel shift what you are doing is shifting the line of the cuestick on a parallel line with the original aimline, because of this the cuestick will stay in contact with the CB for a longer period of time than with BHE.
By pivoting from the original bridge position you reduce the amount of deflection by limiting the amount of time that the cuestick makes contact with the CB. This makes adjusting manually not necesary. Using BHE also imparts more spin on the CB. It does this because when using parallel shift the Stick maintains contact longer and therefore PUSHES the spin out of the CB that it would normally impart on it. It is this combination of increased spin and reduced squirt that allows automatic adjustment for squirt and throw.
If you doubt it just try it, but make sure you are stroking straight through the CB before you write it off.
titlistsucker
Deceased
For those who still cannot understand the technicalities that Jaden is trying to impart, cant visualise or simply cant believe its so simple, u can buy a copy of the deflection tape by Bert Kinister. Think it pretty much demonstrate how it works.
It does need a bit of practise though, cos u would subconciously try to "right" the stroke when stroking across.
Anyway if u think your own method of manual compensation works.. stick to it then..
Bgrds
RC
It does need a bit of practise though, cos u would subconciously try to "right" the stroke when stroking across.
Anyway if u think your own method of manual compensation works.. stick to it then..
Bgrds
RC
I can't recommend any tapes sorry?
Because I learned these concepts on my own, I haven't seen any tapes or read any books on the subject, so I can't make any recommendations. I can say that if you are in CAli and can make it to San Diego, then I may be at college billiards or oncue in mid jan of 06 or later or you can find Chris Rose he plays mostly out of college. I taught him and he has a good enough grasp of the concept to teach it to anyone else plus he'll prbably teach it to you for the cost of a soda or a meal. I'll teach just to help the sport. I rarely play for money, so you don't have to worry about me hustlin ya.
Because I learned these concepts on my own, I haven't seen any tapes or read any books on the subject, so I can't make any recommendations. I can say that if you are in CAli and can make it to San Diego, then I may be at college billiards or oncue in mid jan of 06 or later or you can find Chris Rose he plays mostly out of college. I taught him and he has a good enough grasp of the concept to teach it to anyone else plus he'll prbably teach it to you for the cost of a soda or a meal. I'll teach just to help the sport. I rarely play for money, so you don't have to worry about me hustlin ya.
Jaden,
Nice explaination in laymen terms. I will try this terminology on some students next week. I always have alway avoided this area because of the confusion that always comes next. Just for the hell of it I will use your words/explaintion and see how confused the look on their faces. I agree that knowledge can't hurt but these guys go on tilt with almost anything new...should be fun for me and who knows what for them...LOL
Nice explaination in laymen terms. I will try this terminology on some students next week. I always have alway avoided this area because of the confusion that always comes next. Just for the hell of it I will use your words/explaintion and see how confused the look on their faces. I agree that knowledge can't hurt but these guys go on tilt with almost anything new...should be fun for me and who knows what for them...LOL
jsp said:
It is true that balls will skid less when the cue ball is struck low. The reason I mention this is to show that there exists more grap when the CB is not spinning. If you have ever had the misfortune of playing in a room were skids are common, you will learn this fast. Low english reduces the grab (skid occurs when there is grit or some textured surface on the balls and the grabbing effect is enhanced.)
titlistsucker said:
Just an opinion.
The technicalities are introduced because of friction. In a frictionless environment no would be talking about this stuff. The real knowledge here is understanding how to minimize friction or working with the effects of it through feel and experience, not systems. But these are variables. Just as different tips can cause more draw (more friction) than others, so do the balls used, the felt and the condition of equipment all change things. And yes humidity and your personal stroke also. There is no magic in determining how all shots will work with all these effects. It is experience that dictates a players ability simply because these things are constantly changing. Some cue balls are even lighter and heavier than the rest of the set and this also causes change. How do we adapt? Our minds do it for us based upon experience, not some system. Use a system, I say you lose. More importantly you lose your creative aspects 'cause systems are finite.
So what is needed is a general understanding of what causes things to occur, not a system to compensate for them. The only system should be a very simple one, ball to the pocket. Shoot pool until you understand how to make proper contact through feel and experience. Quickly you will learn, because of your knowledge of applied friction, that some balls have to be cut more than others. Also what is learned for those that enjoy the challenge is how to spin cut and do a whole bunch of other very effective shots. Pool is creative stuff and that's the fun of it.