Does Ball Weight Effect Throw?

[Pidge]

I ask because I've noticed it does, but it could be down to other factors also.

Example 1 - all things identical, with the exception of the object balls. The only difference between the 2 different sets of balls are set 1 is 1oz lighter than set 2. Would either set throw more, both CIT and SIT whilst using the same CB for both sets and performing identical shots for both?

Example 2 - all things identical, this time with the exception of set 1 being 1/4 of an inch smaller than set 2, but they both weigh the same. The CB matches set 2, so is larger than set 1. Would either set throw more, both CIT and SIT for identical shots?

If the answer is yes, what degree of difference would you see in the outcome?

I know this question will appeal to a certain few on here and I fear the answers may go way beyond my physics knowledge but bring it on. I'm always up for learning, so bring out my inner nerd!

 

[Buckzapper]

Today scientists believe that mass is equivalent to energy and the total mass before and after a given process is exactly the same only if the energy gained or lost in the process is taken into account. The equivalence of mass and energy was deduced from the theory of relativity. The concept is of importance in calculations dealing with fast-moving particles contained in pool balls, and may predictably be calculated, but the farther away from point of impact, the greater variance in the widening of angle is seen. In everyday processes the amount of mass redirected by a pool cue tip as energy, however diligent the stroke is to deliver it on a tangent line, regardless butt elevation, elbow twist, wrist snap and dead matter poke, is insignificant and the law of conservation of mass is still considered to hold true, in regards to one-dimensional inertia, such as the striking of a pool ball.

 

[pt109]

I have a very limited experience with an over-size cue-ball.
....but I do know that a big cue-ball over-cuts a smaller object-ball.
....for the same reason an airborne cue-ball over-cuts....
...it creates a different contact point.

I've only gambled about 3 times like this so I don't know about the SIT or CIT......
....but I would think that outside spin would cut more.

Thickness of cloth is a very big factor, also.

 

[AtLarge]

I have a very limited experience with an over-size cue-ball.
....but I do know that a big cue-ball over-cuts a smaller object-ball.
....for the same reason an airborne cue-ball over-cuts....
...it creates a different contact point. ...

No. If the CB is larger than the OB, it will create a thicker hit (smaller cut angle) than would a same-sized CB aimed at the same place on the OB.

For example (and ignoring collision-induced throw and any effects from hopping created by the difference in sizes), aiming the center of the CB at the edge of the OB will produce a 30° cut if the CB is the same size as the OB, a cut of less than 30° if the CB is larger, and a cut of more than 30° if the CB is smaller.

Your likening it to an airborne CB is incorrect. An airborne CB of the same size as the OB does hit above the OB's equator, but the hit is "farther around" the OB (if that makes sense) than it would be if the CB were on the table, creating a larger cut angle. On the other hand, a larger CB also hits above the OB's equator, but the hit is not as far around the OB as it would be for a same-sized CB, creating a smaller cut angle.

 

[highkarate]

i play mostly with a measle ball which in many cases is slightly larger and heavier than the other balls in the set. not to discount any of the previous responses but in my experience the size of the ball doesnt really cause you to over/under-cut the balls, nor does it apply a noticable amount more throw. the main factor i account for when switching cue balls is deflection. a lighter cue ball will deflect more, and a heavier one will deflect less, so when you use outside english on a cut it might seem like youre throwing it more but really its just deflecting less. also, the cloth is a big factor as previously stated

 

[pt109]

No. If the CB is larger than the OB, it will create a thicker hit (smaller cut angle) than would a same-sized CB aimed at the same place on the OB.

For example (and ignoring collision-induced throw and any effects from hopping created by the difference in sizes), aiming the center of the CB at the edge of the OB will produce a 30° cut if the CB is the same size as the OB, a cut of less than 30° if the CB is larger, and a cut of more than 30° if the CB is smaller.

Your likening it to an airborne CB is incorrect. An airborne CB of the same size as the OB does hit above the OB's equator, but the hit is "farther around" the OB (if that makes sense) than it would be if the CB were on the table, creating a larger cut angle. On the other hand, a larger CB also hits above the OB's equator, but the hit is not as far around the OB as it would be for a same-sized CB, creating a smaller cut angle.

Hm...something to think about.
.I always assumed they over-cut from a gambling experience...
..I was making thin cuts that I usually bank.
Will test this on Saturday with a pool and snooker ball.
..thanx

 

[naji]

I ask because I've noticed it does, but it could be down to other factors also.

Example 1 - all things identical, with the exception of the object balls. The only difference between the 2 different sets of balls are set 1 is 1oz lighter than set 2. Would either set throw more, both CIT and SIT whilst using the same CB for both sets and performing identical shots for both?

Example 2 - all things identical, this time with the exception of set 1 being 1/4 of an inch smaller than set 2, but they both weigh the same. The CB matches set 2, so is larger than set 1. Would either set throw more, both CIT and SIT for identical shots?

If the answer is yes, what degree of difference would you see in the outcome?

I know this question will appeal to a certain few on here and I fear the answers may go way beyond my physics knowledge but bring it on. I'm always up for learning, so bring out my inner nerd!

Good question for Dr. Dave.

 

[3andstop]

Today scientists believe that mass is equivalent to energy and the total mass before and after a given process is exactly the same only if the energy gained or lost in the process is taken into account. The equivalence of mass and energy was deduced from the theory of relativity. The concept is of importance in calculations dealing with fast-moving particles contained in pool balls, and may predictably be calculated, but the farther away from point of impact, the greater variance in the widening of angle is seen. In everyday processes the amount of mass redirected by a pool cue tip as energy, however diligent the stroke is to deliver it on a tangent line, regardless butt elevation, elbow twist, wrist snap and dead matter poke, is insignificant and the law of conservation of mass is still considered to hold true, in regards to one-dimensional inertia, such as the striking of a pool ball.

I don't know what the hell I just read, but I totally agree.

 

[Bob Jewett]

According to the current theory, the mass is not important. The most important factor is the coefficient of friction (stickiness) between the balls. That directly gives the ratio of sideways force to pushing force (tangential versus normal) during the collision.

But the COF depends on the material and its hard to change the mass as much as you've listed without changing the material in the ball.

 

[Pathetic Shark]

I ask because I've noticed it does, but it could be down to other factors also.

Example 1 - all things identical, with the exception of the object balls. The only difference between the 2 different sets of balls are set 1 is 1oz lighter than set 2. Would either set throw more, both CIT and SIT whilst using the same CB for both sets and performing identical shots for both?

Example 2 - all things identical, this time with the exception of set 1 being 1/4 of an inch smaller than set 2, but they both weigh the same. The CB matches set 2, so is larger than set 1. Would either set throw more, both CIT and SIT for identical shots?

If the answer is yes, what degree of difference would you see in the outcome?

I know this question will appeal to a certain few on here and I fear the answers may go way beyond my physics knowledge but bring it on. I'm always up for learning, so bring out my inner nerd!

I don't know if UK 8 ball ball size has prompted this or not, but throw is annoyingly small in that game.

Carry on.

 

[Pidge]

I don't know if UK 8 ball ball size has prompted this or not, but throw is annoyingly small in that game.

Carry on.

No it hasn't as it happens, it was a game around my mates house on his barbox and the set of balls he used were very light compared to mine and threw more. Perhaps it was because his were a bit "grubby".

It is true though about the UK 8 ball throw. Makes it hard to throw a ball on purpose, but makes it a hell of a lot easier to judge and pocket balls. Its a nice balance between high squirt and low throw.

 

[Pathetic Shark]

No it hasn't as it happens, it was a game around my mates house on his barbox and the set of balls he used were very light compared to mine and threw more. Perhaps it was because his were a bit "grubby".

It is true though about the UK 8 ball throw. Makes it hard to throw a ball on purpose, but makes it a hell of a lot easier to judge and pocket balls. Its a nice balance between high squirt and low throw.

I like throw. Makes the game more interesting. A lot of throw with tiny pockets would be a challenge, however...

 

[CreeDo]

Today scientists believe that mass is equivalent to energy and the total mass before and after a given process is exactly the same only if the energy gained or lost in the process is taken into account. The equivalence of mass and energy was deduced from the theory of relativity. The concept is of importance in calculations dealing with fast-moving particles contained in pool balls, and may predictably be calculated, but the farther away from point of impact, the greater variance in the widening of angle is seen. In everyday processes the amount of mass redirected by a pool cue tip as energy, however diligent the stroke is to deliver it on a tangent line, regardless butt elevation, elbow twist, wrist snap and dead matter poke, is insignificant and the law of conservation of mass is still considered to hold true, in regards to one-dimensional inertia, such as the striking of a pool ball.

This reminded me of:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7D0BeLz5blM#t=71

 

[Bavafongoul]

Question: Does Ball Weight Effect Throw?

Answer: YES

Does a heavy hammer drive the nail differently than a light weight hammer? Technically speaking, not really as both do the same task but each hammer definitely performs entirely differently with some tasks......just like a light or heavy cue ball does with some shots.

Wait and listen for the echo......here it comes again......YES.

 

[dr_dave]

According to the current theory, the mass is not important. The most important factor is the coefficient of friction (stickiness) between the balls. That directly gives the ratio of sideways force to pushing force (tangential versus normal) during the collision.

But the COF depends on the material and its hard to change the mass as much as you've listed without changing the material in the ball.

I agree. Ball weight alone does not affect throw.

For the all of the effects ball weight differences cause, see the following video:

HSV B.49 - Cue ball and object ball weight/size difference effects

and the ball weight and wear resource page.

Regards,
Dave

 

[Bavafongoul]

Dr.Dave....you posted "Ball weight (assuming the CB and OB are the same weight) does not affect throw.", however, your answer disregards the OP's question about different ball weights. Your reply was predicated on the two balls in question, i.e., cue ball & object ball, being the same weight, which is a entirely different proposition than the OP's question about "different" weights.

Therefore, it would otherwise seem that indeed, this really does matter when there's a difference in weights of the two balls. Otherwise you would have posted that the weight of the two balls is not a factor which I submit would be have been completely fallacious and you're too much of an expert to get that wrong. It was the phrasing you used to answer the OP's question that caught my attention since different weight cue balls will not identically perform which any experienced pool player can attest to.

 

[dr_dave]

Dr.Dave....you posted that ball weight does not affect throw under the assumption that the cue ball and object ball were the same weights.

Actually, I've edited my post to remove the qualification.

Assuming the ball surfaces have the same friction properties in the comparison, and assuming the same line-of-centers hits are being created in the comparison, then the amount of throw should not vary with CB or OB weight.

However, if the weight difference is due to size differences, and a person aims the same way they normally do (with equal-size balls), then there will be different amounts of perceived throw. For example, a larger CB will create a slightly fuller hit than expected (with normal aim), and this will give the perception that the OB is being thrown more (even though it isn't).

CB and CB weight and size differences also has a dramatic effect on CB path. For more info and demonstrations, see:

HSV B.49 - Cue ball and object ball weight/size difference effects

Regards,
Dave

 

[Andrew Manning]

However, if the weight difference is due to size differences, and a person aims the same way they normally do (with equal-size balls), then there will be different amounts of perceived throw. For example, a larger CB will create a slightly fuller hit than expected (with normal aim), and this will give the perception that the OB is being thrown more (even though it isn't).

CB and CB weight and size differences also has a dramatic effect on CB path. For more info and demonstrations, see:

HSV B.49 - Cue ball and object ball weight/size difference effects

Regards,
Dave

Shouldn't the size difference create another significant variable here, in that the CB and OB won't be colliding at the equator, and thus there will be a downward component to the impulse at contact? A larger CB, in addition to cutting the OB, will also trap the OB against the cloth to some extent. I would think this would result in greater pressure at the point of contact, and thus a greater frictional force given the same coefficient of friction. Am I wrong?

-Andrew

 

[Banks]

I have a very limited experience with an over-size cue-ball.
....but I do know that a big cue-ball over-cuts a smaller object-ball.
....for the same reason an airborne cue-ball over-cuts....
...it creates a different contact point.

I've only gambled about 3 times like this so I don't know about the SIT or CIT......
....but I would think that outside spin would cut more.

Thickness of cloth is a very big factor, also.

I agree with this. With a larger CB, the contact point will be below the equator of the CB, so unless you're aiming with that part of the ball, it will appear to overcut since contact is not made until after the center would normally contact the OB. Also, a forward-rolling CB would push down onto the OB, squirting it over further. This is all my guestimation, of course.

With a heavier CB, I would also think that a heavy CB with the same spin will not have as large a kick in the direction of the spin, because the weight will tend to drive the OB in the same direction more so than a lighter weight CB. So, natural CB-OB throw - more, spin-throw - less.. again, would be my guess. Unless, of course, that same amount of weight being spun towards the OB causes more throw. Maybe it's a matter of the weight/speed ratio for the friction? Ugh. Damnit, it's Friday, this shouldn't be happening.

I'll just stick with my idea of the over-sized CB. :embarrassed2:

 

[CJ Wiley]

Big Cue Ball.....this messes up big table players AND bar table players.

No. If the CB is larger than the OB, it will create a thicker hit (smaller cut angle) than would a same-sized CB aimed at the same place on the OB.

For example (and ignoring collision-induced throw and any effects from hopping created by the difference in sizes), aiming the center of the CB at the edge of the OB will produce a 30° cut if the CB is the same size as the OB, a cut of less than 30° if the CB is larger, and a cut of more than 30° if the CB is smaller.

Your likening it to an airborne CB is incorrect. An airborne CB of the same size as the OB does hit above the OB's equator, but the hit is "farther around" the OB (if that makes sense) than it would be if the CB were on the table, creating a larger cut angle. On the other hand, a larger CB also hits above the OB's equator, but the hit is not as far around the OB as it would be for a same-sized CB, creating a smaller cut angle.

We played a lot with the Big Cue Ball, Metal Flake and "Mud Ball" back on the road. This is where I had such a big advantage using the 'Touch of Inside' (TOI)....it actually makes playing with the Big Ball much easier.....I used to "trap" players on a big table, using a Big Cue Ball.....this messes up big table players AND bar table players.