Does English Alters Cue Ball Path Even if there's no contact with Rail?

J

Jun Hao

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I was told that applying outside english with bottom spin would open up the angle of the cue ball path after contact with object ball. Can anyone verify how true is that?

Others said that the effect of english on cue ball is negligible when it doesn't contact the rail.
 
The cb path definitely does change, if only slightly.
For example, on a near straight-in shot, you can throw the object ball in with outside english to 'hold' the cue ball and stop it from drifting to the side.
Also, an extreme example would be shooting a straight in shot with a masse stroke to create an angle that isn't there.
Here's an example from our own CJ Wiley:
http://m.youtube.com/index?&desktop_uri=/#/watch?v=ro23cwXJ4qY
 
my understanding is english ie hitting the cue ball off the vertical axis does not influence the tangent line
it only has effect on the rebound off the rail
in your first example above if you "throw" a ball in you are changing the contact point and therefore the tangent line
its the change in contact point that makes the cue ball take a different path
im speaking only about what happens from contact of object ball and cue ball
we all know we can "swerve" a ball by elevating the cue and putting
english on the cue ball
also english causes squirt
in a way that is altering the direction of the cue ball
 
Jun Hao said:
I was told that applying outside english with bottom spin would open up the angle of the cue ball path after contact with object ball. Can anyone verify how true is that?

Others said that the effect of english on cue ball is negligible when it doesn't contact the rail.
Click to expand...

Envision this....I'm holdin' a beach ball and I center punch it directly to you. Doing this a second time I punch the beach ball two fist widths to the right of center. The ball comes at you straight forward but a little left (right if your receiving the ball) seeing as I hit the ball on the right and pinched it left due to the center of mass came from that angle.

With a cue ball being struck two tips right of center or 3 o'clock, the above change of direction is so finite, that most beginners are unable to relate to or see the concept. The ball also turns back the other way a little as spin lets out.
 
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You can throw a ball up to 45 degrees if you use outside english. Not sure how you want us to verify how it's true, other than to tell you to go talk to a physicist. I'm not doing derivatives with force/friction/kinetic/potential energy at 8 in the morning.

The cue ball contacting anything with spin will make it change paths. Just imagine the object ball as a rail in itself, and that might make it slightly clearer for you.
 
victorl said:
The cb path definitely does change, if only slightly.
For example, on a near straight-in shot, you can throw the object ball in with outside english to 'hold' the cue ball and stop it from drifting to the side.
Also, an extreme example would be shooting a straight in shot with a masse stroke to create an angle that isn't there.
Here's an example from our own CJ Wiley:
http://m.youtube.com/index?&desktop_uri=/#/watch?v=ro23cwXJ4qY
Click to expand...

It doesn't drift to the side because you hit it straight on. Anyone who's been around pool for awhile will have seen when someone hits a straight stop shot with side english & the CB stops dead, sits there & spins in place. If you cut the ball at all it will move sideways, english or no english. To answer the OP question, the people who told you the effects are negligible would be correct. For all practical purposes it's not worth thinking about. What is worth thinking about is that using side english allows one to cut the ball thicker or thinner & that will change the tangent line path. This is useful in many situations.
You originally stated "outside english with bottom spin" which of course will change the CB path after it starts out down the TL. When it changes depends on speed. Follow & draw change the path, side english does not.
 
sparkle84 said:
It doesn't drift to the side because you hit it straight on. Anyone who's been around pool for awhile will have seen when someone hits a straight stop shot with side english & the CB stops dead, sits there & spins in place.
Click to expand...

There is a subtlety here. If you hit it squarely straight on, and the object ball moves to the left a bit (say 3 degrees) because of the throw, then that same force that pushed the object ball to the left will push the cueball to the right (equal, opposite, action/reaction), and the cueball will drift to the right a bit.

In the shot you're talking about, I think you have cut the wrong way by say a degree. Then the 3 degree throw turns into a net 2 degree throw and the cueball stays in place because the tangent effect balances the throw effect.
 
Jun Hao said:
I was told that applying outside english with bottom spin would open up the angle of the cue ball path after contact with object ball. Can anyone verify how true is that?
Click to expand...

It does.

Where is this useful? Sometimes on straight in side pocket shots, I use english with stun to throw the cue ball over a little, like 6 inches to a foot. I find it a little easier to control the distance this way versus using only stun and aiming off center.
 
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TATE said:
It does.

Where is this useful? Sometimes on straight in side pocket shots, I use english with stun to throw the cue ball over a little, like 6 inches to a foot. I find it a little easier to control the distance this way versus using only stun and aiming off center.
Click to expand...

Tate, it doesn't. You understand the results, but not the "why". English has no effect until the cb hits the rail. What is happening in your case, is that using english, you get squirt with the cb. That causes you to hit the ob off center, but the throw from the english brings the ob back on line, making the ball. Hitting the ob off center, you now have changed the tangent line off the ob, making it appear that the english had an effect on the tangent line. It does not.
 
mikepage said:
There is a subtlety here. If you hit it squarely straight on, and the object ball moves to the left a bit (say 3 degrees) because of the throw, then that same force that pushed the object ball to the left will push the cueball to the right (equal, opposite, action/reaction), and the cueball will drift to the right a bit.

In the shot you're talking about, I think you have cut the wrong way by say a degree. Then the 3 degree throw turns into a net 2 degree throw and the cueball stays in place because the tangent effect balances the throw effect.
Click to expand...

Perhaps you're right. I'm not too interested in the physics of stuff like this that comes up frequently on the forum. More interested in real world results that can be used on a pool table. And the result that I've gotten tens of thousands of times over the past 50 yrs. is that I can throw a ball left or right & have the CB stop dead with no sideways movement. Whether I'm aiming an infinitesimally small distance left or right doesn't change the fact that you can throw a ball & still have the CB stop in place.
 
Does English Alters Cue Ball Path Even if there's no contact with Rail? - Today, 01:12 PM

I surely don´t know everything but what I think I see is that it´s a lot of good answers but not always the answer for the question - see above, in OP´s headline. I may of course have interpreted the question wrong - have been wrong on occasions............:wink:

My answer - Of course it does, topspin, side, backspin etc etc etc. A good player can make the cueball dance using english, look at a trickshot artist showing masse shots.

The tangent line, throw however is a different thing. It always start with the same tangent line but depending on amount of english, which english etc the cue grabs the cloth and makes another path. Friction take place.

Every sport using balls are the same. Golf you use the friction of the air to make draws, fades etc. But I guess on the moon were a golfball would travel a much greater distance it would take a real mean ugly snaphook I guess to produce the slightest of draw:-).

Chrippa, btw you all - have a real nice weekend, - now off to play some:)
 
Its about the "Tube"

Explain why Jim Reid says that if you keep the cb in the imaginary "Tube" to the ob, you can use any type of spin on the cb and the ob will not be effected.?
 
truman said:
Explain why Jim Reid says that if you keep the cb in the imaginary "Tube" to the ob, you can use any type of spin on the cb and the ob will not be effected.?
Click to expand...

I'm happy to support Jimmy and the sale of his DVD's. However, not everything he believes is right.
 
Jun Hao said:
I was told that applying outside english with bottom spin would open up the angle of the cue ball path after contact with object ball. Can anyone verify how true is that?

Others said that the effect of english on cue ball is negligible when it doesn't contact the rail.
Click to expand...
As others have said, pure sidespin won't change the CB's path. But the shot you describe has bottom sidespin, which creates masse (because the stroke is at least a little downward through the ball), changing the CB's path before and sometimes after contact with the OB.

pj
chgo
 
How about fuzzy cloth, small chunks of chalk or debris? You might be able to change the line, but not by much.
 
Patrick Johnson said:
As others have said, pure sidespin won't change the CB's path.
Click to expand...
This is true with stun shots; but with follow and draw shots, sidespin does slightly alter the CB path. As others have pointed out, Diagram 3 in my May '05 "90/30-degree-rule English effects" BD article shows the effect (and how small it is).

Patrick Johnson said:
But the shot you describe has bottom sidespin, which creates masse (because the stroke is at least a little downward through the ball), changing the CB's path before and sometimes after contact with the OB.
Click to expand...
Good point. Sidepsin can have a large effect on the resulting CB path on certain types of shots due to swerve and throw effects. Masse shots and after-collision masse shots are extreme examples of how the CB path can be changed both before and after OB contact (and before cushion contact). These shots use lots of cue elevation, but the same effects happen to a much lesser extent on normal shots (with only a small amount of cue elevation). And as you point out, the effects will be greater on draw shots, where the cue is less level than with follow shots.

Even with a level cue (and no swerve), throw can be used to help hold or "kill" (and even reverse) the CB's motion. Here's a demo of the effect:
Much more info and demonstrations related to this topic can be found here:

Here are two more examples where sidespin is used to help change the CB path:

Regards,
Dave
 
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