Does it EVER make sense for a pool hall to re-felt the table, but not re-level it?

[CreeDo]

I've seen both processes but I'm not an expert. So I'm asking just to see if there's something obvious I'm overlooking.

My impression is that leveling is always done at the same time as re-felting. Maybe because it helps or makes sense to do it while the rails are off. But maybe that isn't required?

Is there any good mechanic who would voluntarily re-felt the cloth, then walk away and come back at a later date to do the leveling? Is there some reason that might make sense?

Basically I'm astounded that the pool hall with the worst equipment in northern VA refelted some of their tables but didn't bother leveling them at all. You can still watch a ball drift off six inches, in the same areas it did before.

Who runs a pool hall and spends money on the cloth, but doesn't give a shit about leveling it?
What mechanic walks away from a table knowing it plays like garbage?

 

[bazkook]

I kinda know what you mean. One of the better local pool halls in my area needed their tables refelted bad and so far 1 of 3 have been done. It plays a million times better. You used to be able to pinch the cloth and pull the cloth well above the top of the rails. My one gripe is that they were too cheap to spend a little more and get Simonis. They ended up getting Championship.
The previous owner used an gentleman who did horrible work and was paid only a couple hundred dollars at the most to recover 3 tables. The people who recovered the tables this time were paid more and the work reflects it.
It goes back to the old saying: you get what you pay for!

 

[FatherofAiming]

Please understand that leveling cannot be done while the rails are off. This is an obvious point of contention because the rails are connected to the slate.

Furthermore, when you have removed the rails in order to re-cloth the table, you would like to wait a short time before leveling the table because it may settle slightly into the floor.

I do not know the situation at the pool hall that you speak about.

But you are showing signs that you have not made your knowledgable in table mechanics, and there is no reason to allow yourself to become angry at something that is beyond your understanding.

 

[johnqbs]

It happens with more than just billiards.

This problem is with a lot of services not just billiards. Some time you get what you pay for and other times you don't. What I think is the dividing factor from a well done job to a crap job is the lack of knowledge on behalf of the person paying for the work. From what I have seen over the years if the bar or pool hall owner does not play some pool He or She may not have a clue as how a table should play or know what it may need to fix it. Take care, john

 

[onepocketron]

Putting new cloth on a table and then not making sure it is level doesn't make sense to me. If the table is not level, the balls will roll off even worse as the cloth tends to be faster, so the balls do not need to be struck with much pace. The slower the speed/pace, the more the ball will roll off.
The hall I play from levels the tables when they are recovered.

 

[CreeDo]

That's actually pretty much exactly why I was asking. I know I lack knowledge in this area, so rather than just assume the worst, I decided to ask.

I guess it makes sense to me that you don't level while the rails are off, the rails themselves can affect it. But is there a reason that you know of to not relevel on the same day, vs. making a second trip? Table mechanics are so few and far between, they sometimes have to drive over 100 miles.

The reason I'm upset is not really that they put on new cloth and seemingly 'forgot' the other important part. It's actually because this pool hall is run by someone who doesn't play and doesn't care, and just wants to maximize profits from the bar.

They waited until three different tables had rips in the cloth the size of my forearm before finally caving in and getting new cloth. And from what I hear, they only caved in because people were publicly posting pictures of the cloth.

I'm wondering if the mechanic charges separately for levelling, and to save that extra dollar, the owner said "ok, just re-felt the table, don't bother leveling it".

Please understand that leveling cannot be done while the rails are off. This is an obvious point of contention because the rails are connected to the slate.

Furthermore, when you have removed the rails in order to re-cloth the table, you would like to wait a short time before leveling the table because it may settle slightly into the floor.

I do not know the situation at the pool hall that you speak about.

But you are showing signs that you have not made your knowledgable in table mechanics, and there is no reason to allow yourself to become angry at something that is beyond your understanding.

 

[DogsPlayingPool]

Yeah, at least check the level. Not sure it is required on the Diamond Pro Ams though. I believe the leveling system on those can be used with the table assembled. I believe this because the table is shipped assembled except for the legs.

 

[CreeDo]

Putting new cloth on a table and then not making sure it is level doesn't make sense to me. If the table is not level, the balls will roll off even worse as the cloth tends to be faster, so the balls do not need to be struck with much pace. The slower the speed/pace, the more the ball will roll off.
The hall I play from levels the tables when they are recovered.

That's exactly the case here. People were saying "my god, its' actually worse than before". It always had the exact same rolls, but now the cue ball can literally travel a foot further than it used to and get vacuumed into pockets, seemingly out of nowhere.

I don't know how involved and time consuming it is to level the table (maybe 1/2 hour per table is what I've seen in the past) but there really is no point, I can enjoy fairly new cloth on actual LEVEL tables in a half dozen other places.

 

[thommy]

Please understand that leveling cannot be done while the rails are off. This is an obvious point of contention because the rails are connected to the slate.

Furthermore, when you have removed the rails in order to re-cloth the table, you would like to wait a short time before leveling the table because it may settle slightly into the floor.

I do not know the situation at the pool hall that you speak about.

But you are showing signs that you have not made your knowledgable in table mechanics, and there is no reason to allow yourself to become angry at something that is beyond your understanding.

Whoah!!

The new cloth is gonna change the weight of the table enough to make it sink into the floor???????

And you can't level the table with the rails off?????????


WHERE IS THE REAL KING COBRA WHEN WE NEED HIM??????????


It looks to me like you sir, are the one with the lack of knowledge.

 

[Majic]

Please understand that leveling cannot be done while the rails are off. This is an obvious point of contention because the rails are connected to the slate.

Furthermore, when you have removed the rails in order to re-cloth the table, you would like to wait a short time before leveling the table because it may settle slightly into the floor.

I do not know the situation at the pool hall that you speak about.

But you are showing signs that you have not made your knowledgable in table mechanics, and there is no reason to allow yourself to become angry at something that is beyond your understanding.

What have you been drinking? or.......

 

[reverend]

Whoah!!

The new cloth is gonna change the weight of the table enough to make it sink into the floor???????

And you can't level the table with the rails off?????????


WHERE IS THE REAL KING COBRA WHEN WE NEED HIM??????????


It looks to me like you sir, are the one with the lack of knowledge.

As far as the settling thing, that's not going to happen if the table has been there a while. RKC will tell you the same thing about the rails being bolted on the table before you can get a true leveling. The table must be leveled 3 times or so before it can really be level. Before the slate, with the slate on, and rails bolted. This is simplified of course, but that's the process.

As far as the mechanic coming back at a later date and leveling it, or "forgetting" about it, that's not right either. 1 of 2 things happened. The table owner paid for the tables to get covered AND leveled or he didn't.

When I am recovering tables in a pool room, they are usually pretty close to level in the first place and just need a minor adjustment. In that case I do that for no charge. Now on the other hand, if I have never worked on the table before, and the slate needs major adjusting, such as taking the slate off and or taking all the wedges or shims out and starting, the customer is charged accordingly. This all needs to be discussed before the job is started, and usually included in a bid.

 

[FatherofAiming]

Whoah!!

The new cloth is gonna change the weight of the table enough to make it sink into the floor???????

And you can't level the table with the rails off?????????


WHERE IS THE REAL KING COBRA WHEN WE NEED HIM??????????


It looks to me like you sir, are the one with the lack of knowledge.

You could level the table with the rails off , but you will also have to level the table when the rails are put back on. Again this is obvious and does not need to be questioned.

The force of putting the rails back on can cause some settling of the table. So it is beneficial to wait a short period, it does not need to be days if the table was already in it's current location. Again there is nothing to argue about here.

I'm not sure where you're coming from.

 

[CreeDo]

As far as the mechanic coming back at a later date and leveling it, or "forgetting" about it, that's not right either. 1 of 2 things happened. The table owner paid for the tables to get covered AND leveled or he didn't.

That's pretty much the main thing I wanted to have answered... I was hoping there was some obscure reason a mechanic might choose not to level right away. I'd always thought it was a package deal, if you get one you always get the other.

I'm really wondering if I can expect him to return at some point and level the table, or if the table is stuck this way forever. I'd just ask the owner if he were available... but he chooses to hide, never comes into his own establishment to make sure it's running correctly.

Maybe the mechanic said "ok, the cloth is done for the agreed price, but now it needs leveling. I estimate it's gonna take 2 or more hours to level it because it's in bad shape." ...and then the owner said "no, I won't pay X dollars for that" and this is the result.

 

[macguy]

I've seen both processes but I'm not an expert. So I'm asking just to see if there's something obvious I'm overlooking.

My impression is that leveling is always done at the same time as re-felting. Maybe because it helps or makes sense to do it while the rails are off. But maybe that isn't required?

Is there any good mechanic who would voluntarily re-felt the cloth, then walk away and come back at a later date to do the leveling? Is there some reason that might make sense?

Basically I'm astounded that the pool hall with the worst equipment in northern VA refelted some of their tables but didn't bother leveling them at all. You can still watch a ball drift off six inches, in the same areas it did before.

Who runs a pool hall and spends money on the cloth, but doesn't give a shit about leveling it?
What mechanic walks away from a table knowing it plays like garbage?

Unless the slates have moved or not lining up it makes no difference. After the table is covered it can be leveled and re-leveled any number of times during the life of the cloth. When I was in the pool room business I often had someone come over and say they thought there may be a roll in a table. After a quick check if the table was out it was no problem to get the table back to level in a few minutes. You never know what people do to the tables even attempting to life them that will get the out of level. You just have to fix the problem and it should not require calling a mechanic, it is part of the business to know how.

 

[OneIron]

You could level the table with the rails off , but you will also have to level the table when the rails are put back on. Again this is obvious and does not need to be questioned.

The force of putting the rails back on can cause some settling of the table. So it is beneficial to wait a short period, it does not need to be days if the table was already in it's current location. Again there is nothing to argue about here.

I'm not sure where you're coming from.

I know Mark Gregory checks the level on the bare slate. Then checks it again before he puts the rails on. And then again after the rails are installed.

I think the short answer to the op's question is "sloppy work".

I play on bar boxes in league play where the rails are installed upside down. There are plenty of hacks out there claiming to be table mechanics.

And I can't, for the life of me, understand why you would pay a mechanic to install cheap cloth. If you're covering a table, dig a little deeper and buy Simonis.

 

[derangedhermit]

[...]I can enjoy fairly new cloth on actual LEVEL tables in a half dozen other places.

This is your answer. Tell the owner or manager that you are taking your business to room X and room Y because they keep their tables with decent cloth, cushions, clean, and level. Take your friends with you if you can, and make it known to acquaintances why you are splitting.

If the room owner / manager is aware of the problem, shown the problem, and does nothing, then they are not going to change their habits in the future. Play somewhere else.

I won't play on some tables in my current room because of loose, therefore dead, cushions (#3, #7), or because they are very out-of-level (#1, #12). I tell whoever is running the room at the moment what I'm doing and why - they can't fix what they don't know about. I make sure they know. I'm down to playing on only 2 of the 4 9' tables. They aren't fixing things, so I'm looking for a new room now.

 

[The Renfro]

Please understand that leveling cannot be done while the rails are off. This is an obvious point of contention because the rails are connected to the slate.

Furthermore, when you have removed the rails in order to re-cloth the table, you would like to wait a short time before leveling the table because it may settle slightly into the floor.

I do not know the situation at the pool hall that you speak about.

But you are showing signs that you have not made your knowledgable in table mechanics, and there is no reason to allow yourself to become angry at something that is beyond your understanding.

Well at least we have Identified pocket point's new alias...... and once again you are showing your total lack of knowledge...

The rail bolts can loosened if there is a a major lean and the shims adjusted or if the roll of is minor you can tap the wedges under the slate frame without loosening the rails.....

Most tables are leveled at setup and the shims have a habit of compressing or moving over time... Or most likely the table gets moved and then releveling is about the leg levelers....

I have seen some tables assembled by bad mechanics where you would really want the rails and bedcloth off and actually relevel all 3 pieces but usually a tuneup doesn't require much more than telling the table mechanic which table and where the lean is to get it taken care of.....

I used to make a punch list for the poolroom I played in regarding loose rails/bad rails and slate level issues... If it was leg leveling I did it for them because the tables got moved monthly for carpet cleaning.....

They used the same bad mechanics the pool room I worked for in college had used and I knew without a list they would throw cloth on the tables... grab their check and run for the hills....

No telling How many times I yanked rails off between cloth changes to replace feather strips where they just got in too much of a hurry to make their dollar bills yall..... some strips were cut so bad I could lay toothpicks on top of the cloth and press them in beside the feather strips to pull the cloth back into place... was a short term fix until I could yank a rail but that's the quality they paid for... They went lowest bidder every time......

I still don't know why they ever trimmed the strips... I always set them with a rubber hammer and the grooves weren't worn from years of recovering.......

 

[realkingcobra]

I've seen both processes but I'm not an expert. So I'm asking just to see if there's something obvious I'm overlooking.

My impression is that leveling is always done at the same time as re-felting. Maybe because it helps or makes sense to do it while the rails are off. But maybe that isn't required?

Is there any good mechanic who would voluntarily re-felt the cloth, then walk away and come back at a later date to do the leveling? Is there some reason that might make sense?

Basically I'm astounded that the pool hall with the worst equipment in northern VA refelted some of their tables but didn't bother leveling them at all. You can still watch a ball drift off six inches, in the same areas it did before.

Who runs a pool hall and spends money on the cloth, but doesn't give a shit about leveling it?
What mechanic walks away from a table knowing it plays like garbage?

Leveling the pool table should always be a step taken during changing the cloth. Problem is that most table mechanic's only want paid to install the cloth and not do anything extra so they can get in and out of the job. If they do anything to level the table, it's mostly just adjusting the feet of the table to level the frame, but not the slates as that can take considerably longer...and don't feel that the location owner will pay extra for that level of work....so, it don't get done. Yes, you can level a pool table with the rails on or off, only problem is...unless the rails are off the mechanic can't level the slates as they need to be leveled with the rails and bed cloth off first in order to get to the slate screws used to mount the slate so they can be backed out to level the slates as needed.

Another problem is that most table mechanic's don't really know how to level the slates, so their mind set is like...."I didn't set the table up first, so I'm not going to take the slates apart and redo them in order to make the table level"....as they're really only there to install the cloth, get paid for that work....and get out the door to the next job.

When I change the cloth on a pool table....it don't matter what kind of table it is....I ALWAYS level the slates if needed, but yes I do charge extra for that...but that service is not an option to the owner of the pool table....meaning, I already checked the level of the slates and determined before the work starts...that the level of the slates is going to have to be corrected...so, when I get into the slates to level them right, that's when I determine how much extra the bill is going to be. If the owner don't want the slates leveled...because they don't care....then I don't care either right along with the owner....and leave, because it's not right to install new cloth....and NOT level the pool table(s).

Glen

 

[realkingcobra]

Please understand that leveling cannot be done while the rails are off. This is an obvious point of contention because the rails are connected to the slate.

Furthermore, when you have removed the rails in order to re-cloth the table, you would like to wait a short time before leveling the table because it may settle slightly into the floor.

I do not know the situation at the pool hall that you speak about.

But you are showing signs that you have not made your knowledgable in table mechanics, and there is no reason to allow yourself to become angry at something that is beyond your understanding.

Slate is leveled first with the rails off. Then you can attach the rails and check for slate level changes because of the rails being bolted down to the slate because yes, the rails can change the level of the slate slightly because some of the rails may not be 100% flat on the bottom side which attach's to the slate, causing minor changes in the slate level, to which you'd then adjust out the minor changes in the level to accommodate the rails being bolted down to the slates. Once that's done then you'd go ahead and install the bed cloth and finish up putting the table back together again.

As far as the table settling again to the floor because of installing new cloth, not a chance if the tables been there for any kind of time-frame of more than 30 days or more.

Glen

 

[thommy]

THANK YOU GLENN:thumbup: