Double Elimination is BROKEN

[alstl]

Double elimination...it's not good for the sport. Pool Needs to play sets, two outta three or three outta five....PERIOD.

Dbl/Elimination.... It's only good for the whiners and for the those that got a bad roll....DBL elimination Keeps more people in the room to spend money the first day and into the wee hours...............Last match START times are often 12-14 HOURS away from initial start time. If the tournament is an Hour away, you must get up at LEAST two to three hours before play starts to eat/shower and get in some practice before play starts, and the proverbial Player Meeting, and Calcutta in some states. A normal first day of play can Easily be a 15 hour day, WHO BENEFITS???????????????????????? Who preforms well after being up that long????


AS a Player,
You need to be at the pool room at Least one hour before Play starts, and after the draw you STILL are Unable to nail down when you play, if not in the first round, the second, or the third or????????????

Pool MUST Follow the formatting of TENNIS....Many are unable to fall into line with the Sleep patterns semi pro events create, it's at the Root of the problem, and I'm SURE why some turnouts are not as Expected. Formatting and event design are Flawed and are geared more towards the business model than the game itself. Players are always looking for an ANGLE as are businesses, they both are Complicit when this matter is looked at from a Real perspective of ''the game'', which seldom if Ever comes before room owner and a gamblers mindset.

Playing sets...scheduling and match TIMES can be controlled.....

I don't follow tennis by my impression is they already know ahead of time who the players are going to be which makes it easier to set up a schedule. That isn't the case with a pool tournament where a random number of players show up to play on a limited number of tables.

 

[Joe T]

I don't follow tennis by my impression is they already know ahead of time who the players are going to be which makes it easier to set up a schedule. That isn't the case with a pool tournament where a random number of players show up to play on a limited number of tables.

Which reminds me of a thought I had the other day; Do we spoil pool players or not ask enough of them? My son signs up for a golf tournament I have to have the check to them at least 7 days prior, he gets a tee time (could be 7am), we don't show up ontime, guess what.

If I were to recommend that all pool players have to register and pay for weekend tournaments no later than then the Wed prior and the tournament was going to start at 9am with all match times for day being scheduled out, I would be told I'm out of my freakin mind, lol and they would be right but that's just because we accept the same old same old, maybe its time we step it up a bit?

 

[Island Drive]

Which reminds me of a thought I had the other day; Do we spoil pool players or not ask enough of them? My son signs up for a golf tournament I have to have the check to them at least 7 days prior, he gets a tee time (could be 7am), we don't show up ontime, guess what.

If I were to recommend that all pool players have to register and pay for weekend tournaments no later than then the Wed prior and the tournament was going to start at 9am with all match times for day being scheduled out, I would be told I'm out of my freakin mind, lol and they would be right but that's just because we accept the same old same old, maybe its time we step it up a bit?

Yep, when you let others Slack, you yourself are at the core of the problem. Enabling anyone to continue their bad habits is Typical of pool room antics. We all know how that effects those that need to ''grow up'', they just continue on being incompetent. Enablers are worse that those looking to be enabled. I raised my two daughters by NOT allowing this behavior on both sides of the fence, I'm now Extremely proud of who they have become., and who their TRUE FRIENDS ARE.

 

[336Robin]

Stepping Up a Bit

Which reminds me of a thought I had the other day; Do we spoil pool players or not ask enough of them? My son signs up for a golf tournament I have to have the check to them at least 7 days prior, he gets a tee time (could be 7am), we don't show up ontime, guess what.

If I were to recommend that all pool players have to register and pay for weekend tournaments no later than then the Wed prior and the tournament was going to start at 9am with all match times for day being scheduled out, I would be told I'm out of my freakin mind, lol and they would be right but that's just because we accept the same old same old, maybe its time we step it up a bit?

I have to agree with this to an extent, sure some people will show wanting in but there isn't any reason that people couldn't be better about pre payment etc.

As far as stepping up a bit I just feel that there are a lot of things in pool that should. I see that the Double Elim format isn't a great value for the player. I know that Modified Round Robin is because you will play more matches and at least you will get to play some if youre on the losers side of things however you cant pack the numbers into a place that you could with Double Elim, its just a fact but the value is in the play and the fact that people really cant leave the room and go get food somewhere else. So it is good for the Room Owner.

I just think that if we offer value to players, more people might feel like playing and that's just a start, pool has a long way to come and its evident that some of the things done in the past haven't been as attractive to people anymore.

Sure the game hasn't changed but for my $50 I would come out ahead playing 5 a game with someone and at least enjoying the fight for it by getting to play more rather than going 2 and out if Im drawing world beaters. That's no fun. You can get all of the spot in the world but if you never see a ball then....well sort of an empty feeling....

 

[alstl]

Which reminds me of a thought I had the other day; Do we spoil pool players or not ask enough of them? My son signs up for a golf tournament I have to have the check to them at least 7 days prior, he gets a tee time (could be 7am), we don't show up ontime, guess what.

If I were to recommend that all pool players have to register and pay for weekend tournaments no later than then the Wed prior and the tournament was going to start at 9am with all match times for day being scheduled out, I would be told I'm out of my freakin mind, lol and they would be right but that's just because we accept the same old same old, maybe its time we step it up a bit?

I'm guessing there is a reason why it isn't done that way. Probably has something to do with limiting the number of players in your tournament to such a small number the owner would lose money.

 

[336Robin]

Losing Proposition

I'm guessing there is a reason why it isn't done that way. Probably has something to do with limiting the number of players in your tournament to such a small number the owner would lose money.

Just from what Ive seen in a lot of instances having a Pool Tournament ends up being a losing proposition..... when the owners goes adding a bunch of money. I think they do it hoping to build something and they do it more for promotion of the room. Most room owners slow down on it after awhile and that should tell you something. I would say they don't feel like that get a bang for their buck promotion wise.

Friend of mine told me that the players would leave his room and go to Mc Donalds instead of spend 3 dollars more and get a nice meal or order something cheap from him and yeah he stopped running tournaments.

He did do a Modified Round Robin for the WPBA and he told me the room did okay and he had added a nice amount to it.

 

[Roger Long]

Which reminds me of a thought I had the other day; Do we spoil pool players or not ask enough of them? My son signs up for a golf tournament I have to have the check to them at least 7 days prior, he gets a tee time (could be 7am), we don't show up ontime, guess what.

If I were to recommend that all pool players have to register and pay for weekend tournaments no later than then the Wed prior and the tournament was going to start at 9am with all match times for day being scheduled out, I would be told I'm out of my freakin mind, lol and they would be right but that's just because we accept the same old same old, maybe its time we step it up a bit?

I don't think you're out of your mind at all, Joe. We spoil the players. Promoters and TD's give them all the options, and reserve no options for themselves.

I don't know how it is in other areas, but in Arizona there is no such thing as a tournament that makes money. Under the best of circumstances, the very best any tournament might do is to be a break even proposition for the owner. So if owners and promoters are going to lose money anyway, why don't they take some of the control away from the players by guaranteeing the added money no matter how few players sign up, but have a cutoff time for sign-ups, just as you suggested? After a while, the players would get used to the idea that they had better play by the new rules if they want to play at all.

Roger

 

[Joe T]

I have to agree with this to an extent, sure some people will show wanting in but there isn't any reason that people couldn't be better about pre payment etc.

As far as stepping up a bit I just feel that there are a lot of things in pool that should. I see that the Double Elim format isn't a great value for the player. I know that Modified Round Robin is because you will play more matches and at least you will get to play some if youre on the losers side of things however you cant pack the numbers into a place that you could with Double Elim, its just a fact but the value is in the play and the fact that people really cant leave the room and go get food somewhere else. So it is good for the Room Owner.

I just think that if we offer value to players, more people might feel like playing and that's just a start, pool has a long way to come and its evident that some of the things done in the past haven't been as attractive to people anymore.

Sure the game hasn't changed but for my $50 I would come out ahead playing 5 a game with someone and at least enjoying the fight for it by getting to play more rather than going 2 and out if Im drawing world beaters. That's no fun. You can get all of the spot in the world but if you never see a ball then....well sort of an empty feeling....

I agree with adding value for the player.

 

[Roger Long]

I'm guessing there is a reason why it isn't done that way. Probably has something to do with limiting the number of players in your tournament to such a small number the owner would lose money.

Usually, the owner loses money anyway, especially in rooms where the regular daily trade is already decent. The more players a good room draws to a tournament, the more money they lose because they have to displace normal business that would have been there without the tournament. Tournament players just don't spend the kind of money that social players do.

Roger

 

[Island Drive]

I don't think you're out of your mind at all, Joe. We spoil the players. Promoters and TD's give them all the options, and reserve no options for themselves.

I don't know how it is in other areas, but in Arizona there is no such thing as a tournament that makes money. Under the best of circumstances, the very best any tournament might do is to be a break even proposition for the owner. So if owners and promoters are going to lose money anyway, why don't they take some of the control away from the players by guaranteeing the added money no matter how few players sign up, but have a cutoff time for sign-ups, just as you suggested? After a while, the players would get used to the idea that they had better play by the new rules if they want to play at all.

Roger

I attended a pro event years ago in Vegas. The promoters called my match, I showed up at the correct time, my opponent was late/actually Never showed up. Because he was one of the top 5 in the world they rescheduled and did not forfeit that player. I've also had a TD that I called before I left CO, he knew I would be coming/driving 500 miles one way, I kept in touch during the drive there, only to arrive finding me and my partner were both forfeited in the first round, Lubbock TX, and Rog U know who I mean.

 

[Roger Long]

Here is a great example of why double elimination is broken:

I just read on the front page where it is announced that Tommy Kennedy had won the Tiger Southeast Open 9-Ball Tour stop this past weekend in Vero Beach, FL. But upon clicking on the article I read that 1st and 2nd places were actually split between Tommy and Anthony Meglino at 3:30am after Tommy had sat in the hot seat watching Meglino shoot lights out all through the losers' side. How exciting is it to see two guys quit? Was anyone other than the two players and the pool room staff still awake at that time? How exciting was it for the owner who had to put up $500 and then stay there until 3:30am just to see no clear winner? Who benefits from tournaments like this? Can anyone, really?

Roger

 

[Roger Long]

I attended a pro event years ago in Vegas. The promoters called my match, I showed up at the correct time, my opponent was late/actually Never showed up. Because he was one of the top 5 in the world they rescheduled and did not forfeit that player. I've also had a TD that I called before I left CO, he knew I would be coming/driving 500 miles one way, I kept in touch during the drive there, only to arrive finding me and my partner were both forfeited in the first round, Lubbock TX, and Rog U know who I mean.

Well, they didn't call it Texas Express for nothing.

Roger

 

[Paul Schofield]

To have all players sign up well in advance, there must be a sense of urgency. Players know that as long as there are spots open, they can get in, no matter what is advertised. The fear of being locked out of an event and having to go on a waiting list is the only thing I am aware of that incentivises players to enter early. A promoter needs that waiting list. To get that waiting list, he has to have a reputation of running a great tournament with good value for all the players, especially for the players who never win a match. So, it is all on the promoter's shoulders, as it should be.

 

[Masayoshi]

No, I'm sorry, I didn't mean that it should start exactly when I get there. But yeah, even that is possible with today's tech.

Now, here's how it happens. I get there an hour early to practice. Buy table time, drinks, etc. and bring a friend who might like to get into pool.

At 7:15, the TO is still filling out forms. He takes a phone call from one of the best players in town who is going to be late. I see the chart and I have a bye in the first round.

One hour later and the auction is about over and play is going to start. But first, the TO has to go out and have a smoke (in public, btw).

Two hours later, my turn is almost here!!! (Can't you just feel the market value from my having come to the pool hall, yet?) I check the chart again and the TO surprises me that my bye has been changed to where I'm now playing the good player who finally lowered himself to a our level and decided to finally show up. The excuse from the TO?: "He gets a break as he plays pool more often than you do." I see now where I am positioned on the pool totem pole. Me no likey.

After 3 hours of rip-roaring fun, I'm in the losers' bracket and my friend, who thought he might like to take up pool again, had to go home before he got divorced.

I'm right behind him.

Does THIS sound like a long-term business plan?


Jeff Livingston

PS I quit playing golf on a Tuesday afternoon when it took 3:15 to play 9 holes and the club wouldn't refund my money for the cart of the back nine when I had to go home to live an actual life.

You have 2 options: a) continue going to that tournament and put up with the TD who's only real fault in your rant is letting a player come in late or b) stop going to the tournament. Its not the TD's fault you are constrained on time and I doubt he ever promised an end time.

Like I said, pool tournaments are not for you, neither is golf or any activity that takes more than a couple of hours apparently. If you are at a casino, would you bet more money than you can afford? No? Then why would you partake in an activity that takes up more time than you can afford?

PS I don't see why the golf club should be obligated to refund you. Its not their fault you had to leave. If you had to leave in the middle of a movie, should the movie theater also be obligate to refund you? Or is it your fault for managing your time poorly?

 

[Roger Long]

To have all players sign up well in advance, there must be a sense of urgency. Players know that as long as there are spots open, they can get in, no matter what is advertised. The fear of being locked out of an event and having to go on a waiting list is the only thing I am aware of that incentivises players to enter early. A promoter needs that waiting list. To get that waiting list, he has to have a reputation of running a great tournament with good value for all the players, especially for the players who never win a match. So, it is all on the promoter's shoulders, as it should be.

This is where you and I disagree, Paul. I would not have a waiting list. I think the sense of urgency would come once you developed a policy and then stuck to it. Players could either sign up by the deadline or they wouldn't get to play at all. And as I said earlier, I would put up a respectable prize fund and guarantee it no matter how few players signed up by the deadline. That's where the value added would be: those who signed up by the deadline would be rewarded accordingly. Once the players who got locked out saw that someone else won easy money, they would want to make sure they paid attention to the new policy the next time.

And for another "as I said earlier:" tournaments are not money-makers. They are more like investments. As the old saying goes, a crowd draws a crowd, so you need to have activities like leagues and tournaments going on just so the better business doesn't walk in and walk right back out again because the place looks dead. As a room owner, you know that does happen, Paul.

So, since tournament players don't make you any money, why try to draw as many of them as can possibly be squeezed through the door? Why not go for smaller fields that could be controlled so that reasonable start and end times could be counted on?

Roger

 

[Paul Schofield]

This is where you and I disagree, Paul. I would not have a waiting list. I think the sense of urgency would come once you developed a policy and then stuck to it..........................

So, since tournament players don't make you any money, why try to draw as many of them as can possibly be squeezed through the door? Why not go for smaller fields that could be controlled so that reasonable start and end times could be counted on?

Roger

Roger, You can voice a differing opinion any time. It is welcome here.

I could not agree more with limiting the field and length of races so that the field can count on the tournament ending at a predictable and respectable time.

 

[336Robin]

Modified Round Robin Scheduling

Roger, You can voice a differing opinion any time. It is welcome here.

I could not agree more with limiting the field and length of races so that the field can count on the tournament ending at a predictable and respectable time.

Roger and Paul,

Scheduling and Smaller Fields are something that has to be done in Modified Round Robin.

You have to know the duration of the event and you have to know the duration of both segments, the Round Robin part and then the finals which is usually Double or Single Elimination.

Generally speaking if a 2 day event you plan the races to encompass the entire day on Saturday and you try to keep people busy, leave the owner some tables for his regular business and accept the fact that you cant allow but so many in the field. This puts pressure on the TD for scheduling correctly. If he just throws it down without some thought he will either finish too soon or run late.

Although confusing at first I think the format can be easily explained to people on how to handle it. The race decisions and size of the pools are made after the board is drawn when you start doing that likely late comers are just too late. Where a double elim or single board can have byes there aren't as many chances for that with modified. If you end up with an odd number its possible that one more showing makes it easier to divide the crowd into pools so one late player might get in but its enough to do and write out the board to discourage the TD from letting them do it.

This format can be designed to help a player and a room owner. A player gets more play win or lose. The room owner knows they are staying in place and will do food and drink business with him and that's where he recovers his added money. If he has tables left for customers he might even end up with spectators which bring in money also. The board is laid out so people can see the stats and its something people tend to dwell on trying to find out who is coming out ahead in the different pools. Since everyone plays everyone within the pool. Its possible your pool might be light and you get to the finals where as in a double elim or single elim your continued luck through the field is much less guaranteed. If you are in a pool of 8 people you would only have to be better than 4 or 5 of them depending on how many the TD wants to hit the finals from each pool. Its the finals where upsets can occur and when a mediocre player gets a chance to play some its possible they get in a groove and hit a speed they don't normally have because of all of the previous play. Then you can see some excitement watching a up comer take someone out that maybe he shouldn't have under other circumstances of single or double elimination.

I think this format could be the new one for pool but getting people educated in how to use it and getting people to run it are different matters because TD want to be able to charge the room more than this format might allow. However when people stay in place they do more business in the room and not across the street.

 

[Paul Schofield]

Robin, Run your format in your area for a given length of time. Prove to yourself that it DOES work and has legs. Find out if people like it. Then come back here and post charts and share your experience. Tournament Directors are not going to run trials for you to see if something works. Good luck.

 

[336Robin]

Modified Round Robin

Robin, Run your format in your area for a given length of time. Prove to yourself that it DOES work and has legs. Then come back here and post charts and share your experience. Tournament Directors are not going to run trials for you to see if something works.

Paul
I intend to. I was planning on doing it at 150 and Out once fairly soon and again after I retire in October but....they closed what a shame. I imagine I will run a few here local though. I studied it pretty in depth it appears more complicated than it is and I have assisted in running one already. So I did get to see how its done where the Rubber Meets the Road.

I dont think TDs are going to be wild about it anyway because I was planning on keeping to 48 and on 10 tables to start with.

This kind of tournament if kept to 2 day events just wont allow for the 70/80 people to a field without extremely short races and that takes the quality from it.

Have you ever played a similarly structured event?

 

[Island Drive]

Another Idea

Roger and Paul,

Scheduling and Smaller Fields are something that has to be done in Modified Round Robin.

You have to know the duration of the event and you have to know the duration of both segments, the Round Robin part and then the finals which is usually Double or Single Elimination.

Generally speaking if a 2 day event you plan the races to encompass the entire day on Saturday and you try to keep people busy, leave the owner some tables for his regular business and accept the fact that you cant allow but so many in the field. This puts pressure on the TD for scheduling correctly. If he just throws it down without some thought he will either finish too soon or run late.

Although confusing at first I think the format can be easily explained to people on how to handle it. The race decisions and size of the pools are made after the board is drawn when you start doing that likely late comers are just too late. Where a double elim or single board can have byes there aren't as many chances for that with modified. If you end up with an odd number its possible that one more showing makes it easier to divide the crowd into pools so one late player might get in but its enough to do and write out the board to discourage the TD from letting them do it.

This format can be designed to help a player and a room owner. A player gets more play win or lose. The room owner knows they are staying in place and will do food and drink business with him and that's where he recovers his added money. If he has tables left for customers he might even end up with spectators which bring in money also. The board is laid out so people can see the stats and its something people tend to dwell on trying to find out who is coming out ahead in the different pools. Since everyone plays everyone within the pool. Its possible your pool might be light and you get to the finals where as in a double elim or single elim your continued luck through the field is much less guaranteed. If you are in a pool of 8 people you would only have to be better than 4 or 5 of them depending on how many the TD wants to hit the finals from each pool. Its the finals where upsets can occur and when a mediocre player gets a chance to play some its possible they get in a groove and hit a speed they don't normally have because of all of the previous play. Then you can see some excitement watching a up comer take someone out that maybe he shouldn't have under other circumstances of single or double elimination.

I think this format could be the new one for pool but getting people educated in how to use it and getting people to run it are different matters because TD want to be able to charge the room more than this format might allow. However when people stay in place they do more business in the room and not across the street.

I'd much rather see two separate One Day Saturday events, than the samo final sixteen on a Sunday after a burn out night of Sat evening play. Sundays are generally for families and church for the working ''Many'', who have the fund$. Don't allow those who played in the first Sat. event to play in the second one. This may also allow the room to be more Open for the night time Sat. players/bangers/drinkers etc. who pay the rent.