Double Kiss Banks

Tennesseejoe

Tennesseejoe

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
How can I be able to tell if a bank shot will double kiss? I just play them by feel now but are there some rules of thumb to go by such as when the object ball is frozen to a rail? One inch off the rail? Angle of cue ball?

Will this bank go?

CueTable Help

 
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Good question...you're making me think.

With the two types of banks (crossover and non-crossover) I don't know of any hard and fast rules for double kissing. Most of us, as you say you do, just do it by feel and experience.

The usual variables (rails, humidity, english & speed) might allow you to make a bank one day that is impossible on another day or another table.

There seems to be enough lattitude in the variables to where I will still occassionally try a bank that I know won't go and get surprised when I make it.
 
Good questions and I look forward to the replies. My own sort of gut feel guidelines are that 1)if the OB is close to the rail (0-2") and 2)the angle betwen the CB path and the path the OB will take off of the rail is less than about 30 deg and 3) there is more than a 1/2 ball hit on the CB, I start looking for a double kiss and look for ways to avoid it.

On the example you show, I think if you shoot that ball naturally it will probably double kiss. However it might be made by overcutting it, putting low LH english on the CB to put RH spin on the OB and shoot hard to compress the rail and shorten the bank. All of this courtesy of "Banking With the Beard"

In a casual game I would try it. With money on the line not so sure if I would bank or shoot safe
 
Hey Joe,

I personally don't know any systems for kisses but on your bank example. I would say this isn't a kiss shot but it is close.

If you shoot it soft it will have a much higher chance of double kissing. If you hit it harder the ball will compress further into the rail giving the cue ball more time to get out of the way of the second kiss. Draw will also assist in getting the cue ball out of the kiss zone and shortening the rebound angle of the object ball off the rail which will allow you to hit slightly thinner and still make it.

Not sure if this was what you were asking but these are some thoughts on this shot.

merry christmas,

Dudley

CueTable Help

 
Tennesseejoe said:
How can I be able to tell if a bank shot will double kiss? I just play them by feel now but are there some rules of thumb to go by such as when the object ball is frozen to a rail? One inch off the rail? Angle of cue ball?

Will this bank go?

CueTable Help

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YES!!!!

I judge a kiss by the distance both balls are off the rail. If the cue ball travels the same distance the object ball travels then a natural kiss could occur...SPF=randyg
 
I have heard Danny Diliberto talk about this on one of the accustats videos on youtube. He didn't say much about his system, but he said it was very easy and a lot of top players don't know it. I don't know much about it, so I'm also curious about the answers to your question.
 
The bank you diagramed is roughly a 5-10 bank, meaning that the natural bank point is at 0.5 diamonds at the cushion. To hit the natural bank point, this shot requires about a 12 degree cut. Because of this degree of cut, the cue ball goes clear. Had the shot not involved a moderate cut, it would be a double kiss.

You can use the 30-degree rule to try to visualize whether the cue ball will be in the path of the banked ball.
 
Will this bank go?
..............................................................

Yes - In fact, this one's a hanger.


For banks in general:

1. Object Ball frozen<or very close to rail>

If the angle requires a full-ball hit, or greater, a kiss is
unavoidable - unless there is some kind of trick shot available,
eg. 'hop' the CB

2. Cross-over Banks

As mentioned above - the general guideline is: if the CB path<contact to
rail to kiss point> is equal to the OB path<contact to rail to kiss point>
then the kiss is 'on'. Many of these shots can be made by altering
the 'natural' CB path with spin, draw, stun, etc.

Some, there is no way to avoid a kiss - only a good deal of very
detailed experience will enable you to tell the difference.

Dale
 
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As drawn, this bank goes all day. On a crossing bank a good "rule of thumb" is that if you can't shoot the cue ball past the object ball into the corner pocket - there's a good chance of a kiss. Doesn't mean you can't beat it sometimes with spin or speed.
So... If in your diagram you move the cue ball to the foot spot, the 1 banks cross corner, no kiss. If you put the cue ball on the spot & move the 1 out from the rail where the cue ball can't be shot past it into the pocket - there's a kiss. Good info for playing safeties, too. Learned this from Grady Mathews. Works for a wide range of angles & distances.
 
Tennesseejoe:

As diagrammed, and as others have said, this bank is an elementary one; no spin need be applied, just center ball, and a firm hit. You'll regret leaving that bank for a good One Pocket player, as both pdcue and mdavis228 allude to. Even some of today's 9-/10-ball players won't shy away from this bank, and will go for it, because it's considered a high-percentage shot.

Now if the object ball were a bit closer to the rail (e.g. as an example of randyg's theorem, "If the cue ball travels the same distance the object ball travels then a natural kiss could occur"), this bank is still make-able without a kiss, by using a tip/tip-and-a-half of center outside english (center righthand, in this case), reducing the cut angle slightly on your aim, and hitting HARD. The outside english, combined with the hard speed, will scoot the cue ball to the right, and the hard speed will shorten the bank angle (nullifying/canceling the outside english's tendency to lengthen the bank angle), as well as compressing the object ball into the cushion to give the cue ball more distance/chance to get out of the way.

mdavis228's info is spot-on for crossover banks (i.e. crossing the face of the object ball with the cue ball). There's a well-known crossover bank of this nature in One Pocket, where the object ball is against the cushion of the long rail, about half a diamond (or even less!) from your opponent's pocket (the upper left pocket, in your Wei table diagram). The cue ball's near the foot spot, and with a very firm hit, you can cross the face of that object ball, compressing it into the cushion, and have the cue ball "escape" in time for the object ball to spring off the cushion, and go rocketing into your pocket (the bottom left corner pocket in your Wei table diagram). The key is a center ball hit, hit HARD. I know the first time I personally saw this bank performed years back, my eyes just about popped out of my head -- I thought it was a "lucky high-speed double-kiss," or that something was wrong with the cushions on that table to allow that seemingly physics-impossible shot to happen. (I thought that shot would be a "definite scratch into my opponent's pocket" cutting the object ball like that to get the angle needed for the cross-the-face bank to work. I was obviously wrong.) I later learned to master that shot as I cut my teeth on the great game of One Pocket. I personally can make that shot a very high percentage of the time when the object ball is very near the knuckle of my opponent's pocket on the long rail -- no scratch.

Kudos to randyg, Dale ("pdcue"), and mdavis228 for the great info!

-Sean
 
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sfleinen said:
Tennesseejoe:

As diagrammed, and as others have said, this bank is an elementary one; no spin need be applied, just center ball, and a firm hit. You'll regret leaving that bank for a good One Pocket player, as both pdcue and mdavis228 allude to. Even some of today's 9-/10-ball players won't shy away from this bank, and will go for it, because it's considered a high-percentage shot.

Now if the object ball were a bit closer to the rail (e.g. as an example of randyg's theorem, "If the cue ball travels the same distance the object ball travels then a natural kiss could occur"), this bank is still make-able without a kiss, by using a tip/tip-and-a-half of center outside english (center righthand, in this case), reducing the cut angle slightly on your aim, and hitting HARD. The outside english, combined with the hard speed, will scoot the cue ball to the right, and the hard speed will shorten the bank angle (nullifying/canceling the outside english's tendency to lengthen the bank angle), as well as compressing the object ball into the cushion to give the cue ball more distance/chance to get out of the way.

mdavis228's info is spot-on for crossover banks (i.e. crossing the face of the object ball with the cue ball). There's a well-known crossover bank of this nature in One Pocket, where the object ball is against the cushion of the long rail, about half a diamond (or even less!) from your opponent's pocket (the upper left pocket, in your Wei table diagram). The cue ball's near the foot spot, and with a very firm hit, you can cross the face of that object ball, compressing it into the cushion, and have the cue ball "escape" in time for the object ball to spring off the cushion, and go rocketing into your pocket (the bottom left corner pocket in your Wei table diagram). The key is a center ball hit, hit HARD. I know the first time I personally saw this bank performed years back, my eyes just about popped out of my head -- I thought it was a "lucky high-speed double-kiss," or that something was wrong with the cushions on that table to allow that seemingly physics-impossible shot to happen. (I thought that shot would be a "definite scratch into my opponent's pocket" cutting the object ball like that to get the angle needed for the cross-the-face bank to work. I was obviously wrong.) I later learned to master that shot as I cut my teeth on the great game of One Pocket. I personally can make that shot a very high percentage of the time when the object ball is very near the knuckle of my opponent's pocket on the long rail -- no scratch.

Kudos to randyg, Dale ("pdcue"), and mdavis228 for the great info!

-Sean
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By the same token as using outside english, one could use inside english to increase the angle of the cut and clear the cue ball, yes?
 
I would say this isn't a kiss shot but it is close.
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Even if you cut this shot at the "natural bank angle" it won't kiss, but in fact you have to overcut it because of the the large amount of contact-induced throw you get, so there's really no chance of a kiss.

Draw will also assist in getting the cue ball out of the kiss zone and shortening the rebound angle of the object ball off the rail which will allow you to hit slightly thinner and still make it.
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Draw might help keep the CB out of the way, but it won't shorten the rebound angle. Draw (or follow) reduces throw, and you need more throw, not less, to shorten the rebound angle.

pj
chgo
 
...one could use inside english to increase the angle of the cut and clear the cue ball, yes?
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Only if the cut angle is less than half ball, and then only if you add just a little inside english. Adding too much inside english, or adding any if the cut angle is half ball or more, will actually reduce the "braking" spin transferred to the OB.

pj
chgo
 
Dudley said:
Hey Joe,

I personally don't know any systems for kisses but on your bank example. I would say this isn't a kiss shot but it is close.

If you shoot it soft it will have a much higher chance of double kissing. If you hit it harder the ball will compress further into the rail giving the cue ball more time to get out of the way of the second kiss. Draw will also assist in getting the cue ball out of the kiss zone and shortening the rebound angle of the object ball off the rail which will allow you to hit slightly thinner and still make it.

Not sure if this was what you were asking but these are some thoughts on this shot.

merry christmas,

Dudley

CueTable Help

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i personally shoot that bank soft to medium with a little inside english
 
Randy:
If the cue ball travels the same distance the object ball travels then a natural kiss could occur.
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Yes, if the CB and OB are moving at about the same speed. This happens when the cut angle is about 45 degrees. If the cut angle is less than 45 degrees the CB will travel slower than the OB, so the kiss is on when the OB has farther to travel. If the cut angle is more than 45 degrees the CB will travel faster than the OB, so the kiss is on when the CB has farther to travel.

pj
chgo
 
"When the balls line up on a straight line to the facing of the middle of the corner pocket the bank is kiss". (According to Banking with the Beard p.70). A good easy rule to remember.
Others are out there on 2 or 3 railers but more difficult to spot sometimes. Does anyone have a rule on that or can they draw 2 or 3 railers with double kisses in them so I can avoid them in the future.
Was just reading Banking with the Beard again to shoot some one pocket shots when this was posted.
 
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mdavis228 said:
As drawn, this bank goes all day. On a crossing bank a good "rule of thumb" is that if you can't shoot the cue ball past the object ball into the corner pocket - there's a good chance of a kiss. Doesn't mean you can't beat it sometimes with spin or speed.
So... If in your diagram you move the cue ball to the foot spot, the 1 banks cross corner, no kiss. If you put the cue ball on the spot & move the 1 out from the rail where the cue ball can't be shot past it into the pocket - there's a kiss. Good info for playing safeties, too. Learned this from Grady Mathews. Works for a wide range of angles & distances.
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Grady Matthew's video "Finer points of pool" (video T183) details that cross corner bank you described. I bought mine at http://www.seyberts.com/catalog/Assorted_Videos-239-1.html .

That alone without all the other great information was worth the price of the tape to me.

All 3 Grady Mathew's videos should be required viewing for interested parties. He doesn't dwell on anything (probably knows there's a rewind function).
 
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Tennesseejoe said:
How can I be able to tell if a bank shot will double kiss? I just play them by feel now but are there some rules of thumb to go by such as when the object ball is frozen to a rail? One inch off the rail? Angle of cue ball?
Click to expand...
FYI, here are some good videos on this topic:


Enjoy,
Dave
 
"When the balls line up on a straight line to the facing of the middle of the corner pocket the bank is kiss".
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This is a well known principle (since long before Freddie described it), and I think it's usually close to correct, but only when the CB and OB will bank into each other's path. I think it works as often as it does because when the CB and OB are lined up with the pocket their relative distances from the rails are about proportional with their relative speeds for that cut angle.

pj
chgo
 
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Tennesseejoe said:
How can I be able to tell if a bank shot will double kiss? I just play them by feel now but are there some rules of thumb to go by such as when the object ball is frozen to a rail? One inch off the rail? Angle of cue ball?

Will this bank go?

CueTable Help

Click to expand...

For a decent Banker, this shot is almost a hanger. I'd like to shoot this all day for my cash. The best information I see on this thread is contained in post #9 by MDavis. If you look from the cue ball toward the corner pocket and the object ball is in the way, there is a kiss there. Like he said you can sometimes beat that kiss by the use of english. Good info here!
 
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