Dragon World 14.1 Tournament, is still the World 14.1 Championships

[nathandumoulin]

I know that for many of the 14.1 players, this event has nothing to do with money. It's about the love of 14.1 and the prestige of winning the title. The WPA may not sanction this event as a world championship, but until there is a 14.1 event that has a bigger field and more money, I can fully understand why the players want it recognized as a championship title event.

To further that argument, 8ball, 9ball and 10ball are very popular games globally. 14.1 however, is small in comparison and is predominantly American. As such, the field will likely reflect that (which it does), and expecting event promoters to generate equal money added is unreasonable.

I'm far too uneducated about such things to decide who's right or wrong, but I figured I'd take a quick second to give my 2 cents. In either case, thanks Jerry for taking the time to explain the WPA side of things a bit more clearly.

 

[Cameron Smith]

If the WPA had never sanctioned this event as a world championship, I would agree with everyone that it is not a Worlds tournament. However it was sanctioned in 2006,2007,2008 and 2010. It's the same bloody tournament from the same organizers in the same city (I think) and it has far more money added than it has in the past. The field contains the best 14.1 players in the world and my only complaint is that the qualifiers are only held in the US. It just doesn't make any sense to call it a World championship one year and National Tournament another year, from a marketing perspective Dragon needs to have some sort of continuity with the event.

From an outsiders point of view it just feels like too many politics going on here, and since Dragon Promotions is trying to keep the World 14.1 Championships alive and WPA doesn't appear interested in 14.1 at all....well I'm more inclined to side with the former.

 

[Wortguy]

To further that argument, 8ball, 9ball and 10ball are very popular games globally. 14.1 however, is small in comparison and is predominantly American. As such, the field will likely reflect that (which it does), and expecting event promoters to generate equal money added is unreasonable.

exactly what i was thinking while reading this thread...

I'm far too uneducated about such things to decide who's right or wrong, but I figured I'd take a quick second to give my 2 cents.

me too!:thumbup:

 

[maxeberle]

I know that for many of the 14.1 players, this event has nothing to do with money. It's about the love of 14.1 and the prestige of winning the title. The WPA may not sanction this event as a world championship, but until there is a 14.1 event that has a bigger field and more money, I can fully understand why the players want it recognized as a championship title event.

To further that argument, 8ball, 9ball and 10ball are very popular games globally. 14.1 however, is small in comparison and is predominantly American. As such, the field will likely reflect that (which it does), and expecting event promoters to generate equal money added is unreasonable.

I'm far too uneducated about such things to decide who's right or wrong, but I figured I'd take a quick second to give my 2 cents. In either case, thanks Jerry for taking the time to explain the WPA side of things a bit more clearly.

Well said sir. Exactly. This is about passion, love of the game, legitimacy and history, to name a few.

I'm betting the WPA had no plans to do a World 14.1 until they saw Charlie's tournament get a great reception, and then for personal/political reasons decided to find a way to end the sanctioning. (This is just a hunch so by all means defend yourself)

Jerry thanks for explaining some of the WPA stuff. Also for blaming me for the problems of professional pool lol. The truth of the matter was that there was no World 14.1 Championship until Charlie started it in 2006, with HUGE international support. The Asian players were not there because they don't play much straight pool but we have had a few players including Kunihiko Takahashi in this years event...

Jerry the WPA's work with 9 and 10 ball has been great, still with much to work out (no less than Charlie may have to work out with this event)

I am however confident to defend my position on this legitimate World 14.1 Championship (there are not 3 of them, maybe in 9 ball yes). Until the WPA actually thinks they have it figured out, they should not try and ruin a perfectly good thing (almost perfect just like the WPA lol) that the players and fans have going.

Obviously some guys claim to be 300 time world champion and such, but in this case, with this event, that has been, is, and will continue to be a legitimate title in the eyes of history.

I do believe I'm on the right side of doing the right thing for the sport in this situation, and that as this debate becomes more public, the rest of the world will agree.

Jerry I'm not trying to dog what the WPA does unless they go too far. Sometimes power has a way of trying to do that, in all industries.

Thanks, gotta run,
Max

 

[maxeberle]

If the WPA had never sanctioned this event as a world championship, I would agree with everyone that it is not a Worlds tournament. However it was sanctioned in 2006,2007,2008 and 2010. It's the same bloody tournament from the same organizers in the same city (I think) and it has far more money added than it has in the past. The field contains the best 14.1 players in the world and my only complaint is that the qualifiers are only held in the US. It just doesn't make any sense to call it a World championship one year and National Tournament another year, from a marketing perspective Dragon needs to have some sort of continuity with the event.

From an outsiders point of view it just feels like too many politics going on here, and since Dragon Promotions is trying to keep the World 14.1 Championships alive and WPA doesn't appear interested in 14.1 at all....well I'm more inclined to side with the former.

Thank you, great post Cameron.

And to Jerry, just so you know, on a personal note I've always liked you and been a fan of your commentary. I admire that you've traveled the world promoting pool, and working near the game you love.

I also find the guys at the WPA to be great guys.

I am however allowed to voice my professional opinion, especially as the players too often remain quiet.

The above quoted post says it pretty well.

Ok off to play some 14.1... peace :thumbup:

Max

 

[The Renfro]

If the WPA had never sanctioned this event as a world championship, I would agree with everyone that it is not a Worlds tournament. However it was sanctioned in 2006,2007,2008 and 2010. It's the same bloody tournament from the same organizers in the same city (I think) and it has far more money added than it has in the past. The field contains the best 14.1 players in the world and my only complaint is that the qualifiers are only held in the US. It just doesn't make any sense to call it a World championship one year and National Tournament another year, from a marketing perspective Dragon needs to have some sort of continuity with the event.

From an outsiders point of view it just feels like too many politics going on here, and since Dragon Promotions is trying to keep the World 14.1 Championships alive and WPA doesn't appear interested in 14.1 at all....well I'm more inclined to side with the former.

This is still the World Straight Pool Championship..... The bar needs to be set at different heights for different disciplines.... Johny B. is World Banks champ as far as I am concerned and Shane is the World All around champion.... Until you have an event come to the table with more cash... Better players AND MORE prestige certain events should be grandfathered by the WPA and they should understand why...... If a promoter wants to host a world championship he may be daunted to bump heads with the current holders of World Tourneys in 8ball 9 ball and 10ball.... But hey! Charlie is only adding 35... I can do 14.1 and own the World Championship venue for 45k......... Looks like a SMART way to grow promotions.... If someone does THAT the WPA can take the title venue away... Until then Charlie OWNS IT.......

 

[Mark Griffin]

14.1

I think Jerry explained the situation quite well.
Most do not understand what the WPA does - or their responsibilities. It is their job to protect the title "WORLD", and that is what they are doing.

I respect Max and his opinions - but I have to agree with Jerry's viewpoint.

There have been way too many events being called world events - all that does is make the 'real' world event title mean a lot less.

Dragon Promotions has done a lot for pool - and everyone thinks I make these posts because I have a problem with CW and others. Not True. But I do have a problem with promoting an event that will confuse the public.

I have made these points on several threads because all of these issues could have easily been avoided. By DP and CW. They are the ones that called this a 'World Tournament' - knowing that this would mislead the public.

They have tried to tell the world this is the 71st time this event has occurred. Has anyone looked at the previous champions listed? How about the fact that many of these were not tournaments - but rather challenge matches? Do you think Willie Mosconi played in an event for Dragon Promotions? Or Irving Crane or Luther Lassiter (and many more)

That is misleading - and maybe could even be called deception. The question should be - why did DP do this? Perhaps they should have called this the 3rd World Tournament - that would be far more accurate. But it still is NOT a world championship!

As Jerry pointed out, there has to be guidelines to have a recognized World Championship. With WPA recognition, other Federations will send their top players to make an event truly an international event. Without WPA sanctioning, an event is really nothing more than just a tournament.

There seems to be a fascination in using the name World in a pool tournament. It cheapens the game and the title for everyone.

It just seems that there can only be one world sanctioning body. That is the WPA. If DP wants their event sanctioned by WPA, then they have to meet the requirements, just like everyone else has to.

Then there will be standards for the industry - which hopefully will help all events grow. I know these are tough times for everyone - but we do not need any more intentional controversy.

Mark Griffin

 

[lfigueroa]

Could someone please explain to me why we aren't having, or aren't calling what's happening in NJ, "The US 14.1 Open?

I know I'm going to feel stupid after I hear the simple explanation, but I'll get over it.

Lou Figueroa

 

[azhousepro]

Because you can't call the US 14.1 Open a World Championship.

Just this week I had to remove a story that was posted on the site because the authors referred to Shane Van Boening as a World Champion based on a story about him winning the Predator International World Championship.

While I am certain that the event Shane won had a tough field of players, it was not a World Championship.

Mike

Could someone please explain to me why we aren't having, or aren't calling what's happening in NJ, "The US 14.1 Open?

I know I'm going to feel stupid after I hear the simple explanation, but I'll get over it.

Lou Figueroa

 

[Mark Griffin]

14.1

Lou,

Just so you know (and the other that are interested),

CSI has been granted use of the name: US OPEN STRAIGHT POOL CHAMPIONSHIP.

We hope to see if we can have the first event in 2013.

It will probably be in Las Vegas which (unfortunately) does not have all of the great 14.1 players the East Coast is blessed with - but we are going to try and make it work.

Mark Griffin

 

[dr9ball]

Mark,

Will CSI promote a true World 14.1 Championship in the next few years?
Inquiring minds want to know.

Thanks,

Rufus

I think Jerry explained the situation quite well.
Most do not understand what the WPA does - or their responsibilities. It is their job to protect the title "WORLD", and that is what they are doing.

I respect Max and his opinions - but I have to agree with Jerry's viewpoint.

There have been way too many events being called world events - all that does is make the 'real' world event title mean a lot less.

Dragon Promotions has done a lot for pool - and everyone thinks I make these posts because I have a problem with CW and others. Not True. But I do have a problem with promoting an event that will confuse the public.

I have made these points on several threads because all of these issues could have easily been avoided. By DP and CW. They are the ones that called this a 'World Tournament' - knowing that this would mislead the public.

They have tried to tell the world this is the 71st time this event has occurred. Has anyone looked at the previous champions listed? How about the fact that many of these were not tournaments - but rather challenge matches? Do you think Willie Mosconi played in an event for Dragon Promotions? Or Irving Crane or Luther Lassiter (and many more)

That is misleading - and maybe could even be called deception. The question should be - why did DP do this? Perhaps they should have called this the 3rd World Tournament - that would be far more accurate. But it still is NOT a world championship!

As Jerry pointed out, there has to be guidelines to have a recognized World Championship. With WPA recognition, other Federations will send their top players to make an event truly an international event. Without WPA sanctioning, an event is really nothing more than just a tournament.

There seems to be a fascination in using the name World in a pool tournament. It cheapens the game and the title for everyone.

It just seems that there can only be one world sanctioning body. That is the WPA. If DP wants their event sanctioned by WPA, then they have to meet the requirements, just like everyone else has to.

Then there will be standards for the industry - which hopefully will help all events grow. I know these are tough times for everyone - but we do not need any more intentional controversy.

Mark Griffin

 

[lfigueroa]

Because you can't call the US 14.1 Open a World Championship.

Just this week I had to remove a story that was posted on the site because the authors referred to Shane Van Boening as a World Champion based on a story about him winning the Predator International World Championship.

While I am certain that the event Shane won had a tough field of players, it was not a World Championship.

Mike

But... but... doesn't this get a tad tricky: judging the bona fides of each tournament title?

Lou Figueroa

 

[lfigueroa]

Lou,

Just so you know (and the other that are interested),

CSI has been granted use of the name: US OPEN STRAIGHT POOL CHAMPIONSHIP.

We hope to see if we can have the first event in 2013.

It will probably be in Las Vegas which (unfortunately) does not have all of the great 14.1 players the East Coast is blessed with - but we are going to try and make it work.

Mark Griffin

oh, that makes sense.

And about the East Coast guys -- 'bout time they had to travel further than the Turnpike to play

Lou Figueroa

 

[Mark Griffin]

14.1

Mark,

Will CSI promote a true World 14.1 Championship in the next few years?
Inquiring minds want to know.

Thanks,

Rufus

Rufus,

There are no plans of CSI doing a World's Straight Pool Championship. We would be unable to get the funds together (in a sustainable manner) that could guarantee the event for several years. The only way is through donors or charity - I don't see that happening soon.

There were several well known enthusiasts that were going to put together some money a few years ago but the added was raised to $75,000. That was too high for us to attain.

Mark Griffin

 

[The Renfro]

I think that any winner of a WPA World Championship tournament should be known as A WPA World Champion...... The winner of the this 14.1 tournament.can be known as the DP 14.1 World Champion.... One is ambiguous as the other at this point in cue sports development and promotion and I will recognize both....


I actually lean less towards recognizing WPA champions as world champions because there so few Americans in the fields..... The World Straight pool will have the best straight pool players in the world attending... That gets my nod..........

To me the winner of the US Open will be a World Champion because the best players in the world will be there. Whether or not the WPA recognizes them as a world champion really doesn't matter to me.....

I wouldn't mind seeing a similar effort to the WPA here in the US and we can call it the WPO... The WPO can promote and grow the sport in the West.... The BCA has neither the desire or the vision.....

Imagine the title bouts between champions where the belt can be traded and they can attempt to unify them until the tournaments the following year.... C'mon Mark and Sunny!!!

Boxing has quite a few sanctioning bodies... No one entity should ever have a monopoly on World Championship titles just because they say so....

WBO WORLD BOXING ORGANIZATION

WBA THE WORLD BOXING ASSOCIATION

WBC WORLD BOXING COUNCIL

NABF NORTH AMERICAN BOXING FEDERATION

IBO INTERNATIONAL BOXING ORGANIZATION

WBF WORLD BOXING FOUNDATION

WBU WORLD BOXING UNION

IBF-USBA INTERNATIONAL BOXING FEDERATION
UNITED STATES BOXING ASSOCIATION

ABC ASSOCIATION OF BOXING COMMISSION

AIBA AMATEUR INTERNATIONAL BOXING ASSOCIATION

IFBA INTERNATIONAL FEMALE BOXER'S ASSOCIATION

WSO THE WORLD SPORTS ORGANIZATION

PABA PAN ASIAN BOXING ASSOCIATION

CPBF CANADIAN PROFESSIONAL BOXING FEDERATION

IKF INTERNATIONAL KICKBOXING FEDERATION

 

[azhousepro]

I don't think so. The winner of a World Championship is World Champion. Those who don't win a World Championship are not. I think that Shane winning the US Open title was a major accomplishment. It would be for any player. But it wasn't a World Championship.

Busty finally won a World Championship last year and I would be willing to bet that it meant a lot to him. A World Championship should be a major accomplishment. Few chances and very tough fields. If you have a World Championship every month, then it kind of lessens the title.

Just my opinion though.

Mike

But... but... doesn't this get a tad tricky: judging the bona fides of each tournament title?

Lou Figueroa

 

[geocheren]

since the WPA wont sanction the currently tournament as a 'WORLD' Championship, maybe they could recognize this as an 'Interim' World Championship, due to the fact that no other promoter out there holding a 14.1 tournament with the field and prize as big as this. 'Interim' will have fine print that it was the closest to a sanctioned 'World Championship' but was not sanctioned due to the few points short of the necessary requirements. Its basically a marker for closest to a world championship that any promoter comes close to meeting WPA requirements.

On another note (sorry for slight topic change), what I found peculiar is that there was no 2008 and 2009 World 9 Ball Champion, but in 2010, the Qatar Open was renamed the World 9 Ball Championship.
The first Qatar Open, called 'Qatar World Open 9-Ball', happened in 2008, and was won by Dennis Orcullo with first place being $40K.
Then in 2009, then called 'Qatar International Open' it was won by Mika Immonen, prize being $40K again.
In 2010, the annual event was called the 'World 9-Ball Championship' with Francisco Bustamante winning the first place prize of $36K.
What happened to get the Qatar Open renamed to 'World 9-Ball Championship' and have the first place prize reduced by $4K?
Shouldnt the WPA recognize the previous Qatar Open winners as WPC of that year, because it didnt have a WPC for 2008 and 2009, and that the Qatar open would later be recognized (or renamed) as the WPC anyway?

 

[The Renfro]

I don't think so. The winner of a World Championship is World Champion. Those who don't win a World Championship are not. I think that Shane winning the US Open title was a major accomplishment. It would be for any player. But it wasn't a World Championship.

Busty finally won a World Championship last year and I would be willing to bet that it meant a lot to him. A World Championship should be a major accomplishment. Few chances and very tough fields. If you have a World Championship every month, then it kind of lessens the title.

Just my opinion though.

Mike

http://www.azbilliards.com/thepros/2000showtourney2010.php?eventnum=442

http://www.cuesportsindia.com/global/2010/wpa/WPA9BKO.htm

Take a look at the final 32 in each of the tournaments you mentioned... I personally think I'd take the final 32 at the Open... And if Busty had won in 2009 he would have won more money but only been crowned 2009 Qatar Open champion.... What changed it from the Qatar to the World besides the WPA hanging the sign on it???

 

[azhousepro]

Jerry can correct me on this, but I would guess there was no entry fee when it was a World Championship.

Mike

What changed it from the Qatar to the World besides the WPA hanging the sign on it???

 

[softshot]

so let me get this straight .. NO world championship AT ALL is preferable to circumnavigating the bureaucracy?

I believe that the largest tournament with the largest group of best 14.1 players should be the world championship by default..

if DP is the only one putting on a world tournament... an arbitrary group sanctioned by NONE of the competing players doesn't like it.. So we have no 2011 champion??

lets "FIX" NFL football by not having a super bowl...

the 14.1 crowd is far from dominant..we have the smallest slice of pools tiny little pie.. the fact that we have the best players seems to be lost in all this..

I think DP should be allowed to use the world championship title until someone else puts up a bigger purse.. and draws an equal or larger field..