Draw and Drag Draw

[Patrick Johnson]

I'm trying to come up with a graphic that explains visually how the cue ball goes from draw spin to no spin to follow spin throughout the course of a "drag" shot. I'd be interested to hear if this one is clear enough, especially to those who aren't real familiar with the concept.



Thanks for your comments,

pj
chgo

 

[Bob Jewett]

I'm trying to come up with a graphic that explains visually how the cue ball goes from draw spin to no spin to follow spin throughout the course of a "drag" shot. ...

The graphic looks fine to me. A small nit is that the draw rubs off in about equal parts in equal times which means that you lose fewer RPMs per foot at the start of the shot than later on. That is, you lose a constant number of RPMs per second, not RPMs per foot.

 

[David Beck]

Nice diagram. It's clear and understandable. The follow portion threw me for a second, since technically stun just turns into natural roll, but I get the concept.

 

[Flex]

Looks good to me, Pat. Great graphic.

Flex

 

[iusedtoberich]

Does everyone agreed with the terminology? I understand the graphic and the shots, but I was never sure of the terminology of all the stages, especially the "drag" stages.

 

[softshot]

could be just me.. but an interesting note..

the cueball seems to follow the same distance after contact as it rolled after losing slide... if that makes sense

for example.... if I lose slide 1 diamond away from my OB.. I get almost exactly one diamond of follow after contact..

within reason..

this is not a proven fact.. to my knowledge.. but it's a nice rule of thumb I use when gauging how much follow I want after contact..

the draw the stop and the drag... are simply 3 different phases of the same shot..

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Does everyone agreed with the terminology? I understand the graphic and the shots, but I was never sure of the terminology of all the stages, especially the "drag" stages.

I'm open to suggestion on the terminology too.

pj
chgo

 

[henho]

Terminology in pool is always variable and there are numerous examples of the same term meaning many other things. Just explain what you specifically mean in your application.

In addition to a shot where the draw effect is gone by the time the cb and ob make contact, I've heard drag-draw refer to a shot where the cueball and object ball are not straight-on, draw is applied to the cueball, and the cueball first moves along the tangent line before the draw takes effect and the cueball comes back. THe cueball "drags" across the table and then the draw acts. However, the usage you illustrate seems more common.

CueTable Help

 

[SJDinPHX]

Is this an A.S thread in disguise ?

PJ, All good player's use this shot often. I've heard it called "stun forward" or "kill forward', does it really need a name? If you can execute it properly, it can be stroked soft, firm, or warp speed with the same amount of roll after contact.
Nice graphic though, Colin would be proud of you.

Dick <----hits that shot well.

 

[Jal]

I'm trying to come up with a graphic that explains visually how the cue ball goes from draw spin to no spin to follow spin throughout the course of a "drag" shot. I'd be interested to hear if this one is clear enough, especially to those who aren't real familiar with the concept.

The diagram is very clear. Two issues though.

Others use the terms "sliding" and "stun" interchangeably, as does the diagram. This can be confusing since stun is a particular instance of sliding.

For the amount of tip offset indicated, the distance to natural roll would be much shorter relative to the distance to stun, roughly one-quarter more. (It varies greatly with tip offset.)

Jim

 

[BWTadpole]

Interesting little tidbit about a uniform sphere going from sliding to rolling on a flat surface:

As long as there is friction, a sphere will stop sliding and begin to roll once it is traveling at 5/8ths its original speed.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Nice diagram. It's clear and understandable. The follow portion threw me for a second, since technically stun just turns into natural roll, but I get the concept.

Natural roll is by far the most common kind of follow. You rarely get more and when you do it lasts a very short time before becoming natural roll follow.

pj
chgo

 

[Patrick Johnson]

...does it really need a name?

Maybe so instructors and beginners can talk about it...

pj
chgo

 

[Patrick Johnson]

The diagram is very clear. Two issues though.

Others use the terms "sliding" and "stun" interchangeably, as does the diagram. This can be confusing since stun is a particular instance of sliding.

Do you mean because a cue ball is always sliding some unless it's rolling naturally?

For the amount of tip offset indicated, the distance to natural roll would be much shorter relative to the distance to stun, roughly one-quarter more. (It varies greatly with tip offset.)

What's the range of differences for different tip offsets? Is 1/4 more the maximum?

Thanks for the comments,

pj
chgo

 

[Patrick Johnson]

...As long as there is friction, a sphere will stop sliding and begin to roll once it is traveling at 5/8ths its original speed.

I'll take your word for it, but I'm surprised it's not one of those 5/7 deals (there seem to be a lot of those in pool).

pj
chgo

 

[Patrick Johnson]

The graphic looks fine to me. A small nit is that the draw rubs off in about equal parts in equal times which means that you lose fewer RPMs per foot at the start of the shot than later on. That is, you lose a constant number of RPMs per second, not RPMs per foot.

Thanks. I think that much subtlety may be beyond my simplified graphics, but I'll give it some thought. I appreciate the info, as always.

pj
chgo

 

[Colin Colenso]

The terminology I'm most used to, which I think is prevalent in snooker circles is the stun-through, or stun-run-through. Coming back some say stun back, though the term doesn't seem to be common. Usually just a little screw is used instead.

Colin

ps. And Dick was right. A+ for the graphics!

 

[Bigkahuna]

Patrick,

A couple of things:

I tend to use terms that best describe the action best. This probably comes from the fact I am always working with players below my ability. So, I might say "right or left" and "running and check or reverse" as opposed to outside and inside english. So, I think for the action you are trying to describe I call this "skid zone stop". This is where you are applying draw to the cue ball but counting on the ball striking the object ball during the time it is skidding before getting to natural roll. I find myself using this shot often on longer straight shots where I need the cue to stop but want to limit side to side movement that might happen if I am hitting the ball harder.

Usually this "skid area", (when I am using it), is 8 to 12 inches and your graphic shows this to be very small. Very nice job on the graphic though.

 

[JohnnyOzone]

Nice job, man.

You could also use a stripe on the ball to show the same thing.

The only nit I have to pick is the use of the term "stun run through"
This is a different type of shot than a draw drag shot - even one that only follows just a little bit.

For me, ANY shot with the type of action you are portraying (other than the cueball coming back toward you) I call a draw-drag shot.

 

[Jal]

Do you mean because a cue ball is always sliding some unless it's rolling naturally?

Yes. If the term "sliding" has become synonymous with "stun", that's fine with me (who cares!). But I'm not sure if it has, or if some feel the ball is doing something special with respect to the cloth at the stun stage.

What's the range of differences for different tip offsets? Is 1/4 more the maximum?

If the cueball is struck at (1/2)R below center, ignoring some minor moderating effects such as vertical squirt and any initial bounce, the distance to natural roll would be 1.16 the distance to stun, or 16% more. At (2/5)R below center, the ratio would be 1.28. At (1/4)R, 1.63. And if struck at centerball, it would be infinity. So it changes quite rapidly.

I don't think your intent was to portray this to scale, but if you wanted to....

Jim