DRAW STROKE: Dropping your elbow or not.
- Thread starter JoeyA
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Two things needed to draw a shot, tip low enough at impact, and cue that is already reached max acceleration just at time of impact (not after); everyone is different, but the most agree that holding cue with tip two diamonds a way from CB will generate lots of power, but tip contact will not always be exact and holding cue with tip 6" from CB is accurate but power lacks if you holding butt lightly. Anywhere between that is a player is comfortable and used to is good.
I suggest searching for the previous threads regarding the subject, a lot of good points from every "side" are made there, no need to duplicate them again here.
Neil, I'm not picking on you, but the statements you made in this thread are extremely naiive.
Being able to control you body in a precise manner, has nothing to do with how healthy you are (fat = unhealthy), or how old you are. Its an innate ability.
Buddy Hall was skinny as a rail when he was younger. Now he's several hundred pounds. He certainly lost the "endurance" of being able to play, but he still plays at a pro level.
Pro Baseball players, especially in the past, were very fat, WHILE in their primes. They were still able to hit the ball and catch the ball better than a college kid with a 6 pack that does not have the same control of his body.
I work with a guy who is 55, 300lbs, and hasn't exercised in 20 years. However, his entire youth he was a top level martial artist. I think he reached a 4th degree blackbelt in his 20's, and was an expert in weapons. He can no longer do a pull-up due to his weight, but he can still kick with full force and come within 1" of your face, without hitting you.
I play pool when I can with a guy who is 80, has had a stroke, and has one eye. He will beat the pants off everyone in this thread, except CJ, even today. He is so frail it looks like he is going to fall over. When he comes to the table, he doesn't even have any energy for a warm up stroke. He just holds the tip at the CB, for a second or two, pulls back once, and fires. And he controls the entire game like you wouldn't believe, unless you saw it for yourself. His name is Henry Patcheye.
I go to a Crossfit gym. We do a lot of olympic lifts there, which is all about controlling your body in a very precise and explosive way. Its not simply flexing your bicep to do a curl like what goes on in most LA Fitness type gyms. In that gym, I am extremely lean, 12% body fat, and very healthy. But I can't control the barbel to save my life. The people with the control of their bodies, can perform the complicated movements necessary for a successful lift.
Its simply a matter of athleticism. Its something you have or you don't. It doesn't depend on your level of health or fitness. You can have a junkie high on dope that has this ability beat the snot out of someone in a baseball hitting contest if his opponent does not have the athleticism.
While I agree with you that a longer backswing and forward cue speed is important to power, Max would have to "raise" his elbow on the backswing to get a longer backstroke which was not illustrated in his video.
I like your comment about relaxed arm muscles for generating speed and a relaxed grip to keep the cue on it's intended path, but the smooth transition from back to front stroke is at least as important to speed as well as accuracy.
JoeyA
One word: genetics.
very good points
and to add to the above. Someone mentioned grip and being light. That is something you hear everyday, but..... I was taking a golf lesson from a top instructor and the question came up on grip. He said if you ever shake hands with Jack Nicklaus, which he has, and look at his grips you would realize Jack Nicklaus holds his clubs tight. Grip pressure is relative. Mr. Nicklaus may think he holds it loosely compared to his ability to grip things with much strength. The same can probably be said about a cue and the grip.
and to add to the above. Someone mentioned grip and being light. That is something you hear everyday, but..... I was taking a golf lesson from a top instructor and the question came up on grip. He said if you ever shake hands with Jack Nicklaus, which he has, and look at his grips you would realize Jack Nicklaus holds his clubs tight. Grip pressure is relative. Mr. Nicklaus may think he holds it loosely compared to his ability to grip things with much strength. The same can probably be said about a cue and the grip.
Wow, really? Keep telling yourself that, don't bother looking at his near flawless pitching motion. Genetics is a good answer though when you have no other clue.
I can agree that dropping the elbow is reasonably necessary with a power stroke. Not that it aids in the power stroke in the least but rather, it makes the deceleration much easier on the arm. If the majority of strokes in pool were power strokes, I would concede that elbow drop is a potential necessity. Since power strokes aren't as common in snooker, I suppose that is why you don't see much elbow drop with the top snooker players.
I'm done arguing this point. I have my beliefs on this and feel like everyone is welcome to whatever one they feel most comfortable with. If you like dropping your elbow, drop it like there isn't any tomorrow then if that makes you happy.
You're preaching to the choir, but FWIW, truer words were never spoken. I think you are exactly right.
If my stance is correct and I have addressed the cue ball properly I have found that there is no need to drop the elbow. I can accelerate through the shot, follow through, and finish with my elbow still in the correct position.
If I notice my elbow dropping it is usually a sign that I did something wrong.
If I notice my elbow dropping it is usually a sign that I did something wrong.
This might be true for me as well but only on non-power draw shots. If my elbow drops on power draw shots, it drops and there is no internal discussion about it.
If the elbow drop happens and I did what I set out to do, as far as the shot is concerned, then I have no problem with my elbow dropping.
JoeyA
Seems like whole book could be written about this. Hard to make a real point in just a few sentences either way. Oh wait! There IS a book written about this! In fact, it was written by one of the best instructors on the planet! It's called "Play Great Pool" by Mark Wilson and Donald Wardell.
Hmmmm…having pitched through college and having studied the mechanics (in depth) of many pitchers, including Nolan Ryan, I think I have a clue as to what I'm talking about. His mechanics were very good, as were the mechanics of many of his peers that weren't able to retain their velocity through the course of their careers. By your theory, every pitcher with solid mechanics that throws 95 mph+ early in their career should be able to retain that for 20 years. Not the case AT ALL. He was able to retain velocity, in large part, to his genetics. This is a quote from the man himself, "Your work ethic has a lot to do with staying away from a career-threatening injury," Ryan said. "But the biggest thing is genetics. There were a lot of pitchers who wanted to pitch as long as I did. But because of their body type or injury, it didn't allow them to play as long as I did." The rest of the article can be found here, http://articles.philly.com/2011-03-31/sports/29366270_1_genetics-sports-medicine-nolan-ryan. Citing mechanics as the primary reason for his ability to retain velocity is an easy answer when you have no other clue.
I say if it works for you and you are happy with it, then keep doing it that way. Best of rolls to you JoeyA.
it's more about developing more touch and "feel" for the pocket/cueball connection
That's funny, and so true.
I hung around some of the greatest players in the world in my teenage years and not once did anyone bring up the "pendulum stroke".....or mention anything about what the arm was doing. It was purely about the hand, the tip and the cue ball.......the cue is primarily a "delivery system" for the tip to influence the cue ball's desired reaction.
The object ball reflects {the result of} how the tip contacts the cue ball and our hand receives the physical feedback that we call "touch and feel". That's why the TOI is the "touch" of inside.....it's more about developing more touch and "feel" for the pocket/cueball connection through the tip contacting inside of center.
The best advice I could give to a new, up and coming player is to "become the cue ball," and gauge your pre shot routine in accordance with this outcome. If this seem so simple or esoteric, do yourself a favor and at least "put it on a shelf" for later examination. 'The Game is the Teacher'
That's funny, and so true.
I hung around some of the greatest players in the world in my teenage years and not once did anyone bring up the "pendulum stroke".....or mention anything about what the arm was doing. It was purely about the hand, the tip and the cue ball.......the cue is primarily a "delivery system" for the tip to influence the cue ball's desired reaction.
The object ball reflects {the result of} how the tip contacts the cue ball and our hand receives the physical feedback that we call "touch and feel". That's why the TOI is the "touch" of inside.....it's more about developing more touch and "feel" for the pocket/cueball connection through the tip contacting inside of center.
The best advice I could give to a new, up and coming player is to "become the cue ball," and gauge your pre shot routine in accordance with this outcome. If this seem so simple or esoteric, do yourself a favor and at least "put it on a shelf" for later examination. 'The Game is the Teacher'
In snooker no elbow drop because the hold butt tight for those power shots and utilize muscles..
I haven't caught all of this discussion but I took notice when you posted this. A lot of the reason that some pitchers can throw at a higher velocity and for a longer duration has to do with their bio-mechanics. How long or short their tendons are, how strong they are and how quickly they recover from minor or major tears. You most also consider what other pitches that they throw and how they throw them. If they have a high velocity curveball that they throw almost completely overhanded (Release point at 12 O'clock) than the chances for premature injury are greater than say a sidearm pitcher releasing the ball at 10 O'clock. Add to that the pitchers height and weight and diet and now you have 50 different factors as to why one pitcher could last longer than another. The computations are endless. Body mechanics is a great place to start but it is far from the only determining factor.
No offense Wiley, but I tend to shy away from the vague philosophical advice. I don't want to become the Cue Ball, it gets beat up, yelled at and has chalk all over it. Maybe that works for you, great, but it comes off a little too touchy feely for me.