DRAW STROKE: Dropping your elbow or not.

[CJ Wiley]

"it's always best to learn how to play music from those that aren't musicians".

Aptitude for pool and aptitude for instruction or critique of instruction can be mutually exclusive. One does not require the other. Don't all the instructors say you don't have to play at pro level to teach people? I thought I heard something like that.

KMRUNOUT

I think "they" said "it's always best to learn how to play music from those that aren't musicians".....or something like that.

 

[CJ Wiley]

I like to put players though drills

I totally agree with being very precise with where one hits the cue ball. Care to explain how being that precise fits in with your previous statements of no one being able to hit the center axis of the cb? Which is your whole premise of using TOI?

It's a drill......I'll get into the details of how it's done, and will need (for best results) to be on video asap.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CJ Wiley View Post
Yes, I like to put players though drills that increase their connection between the hand, TIP and cue ball. This requires a specific PART of the hand, a particular PART of the TIP and of course the TOI of the cue ball.

I suggest the image of "cutting the cue ball with a scalpel" to get extremely precise coming down on the cue ball. It's difficult to explain how this is done if writing, maybe I'll make a short you tube clip since we're done with the Million Dollar Documentary.

'The Game is the Teacher' - Stay in the learning mode, it's amazing with we all can learn.

 

[one stroke]

Good point. Don't think I will be trying the side arm thing anytime soon. Just making the same point as CJ; seems like the good players just focus on the tip of the cue, the hand and the cue ball. I know of several good local players who are the same way. Folks say they are natural players but I think maybe they have figured out something some of the rest of us might have missed.

Yes thats correct ... thats becuase they usualy are not trying to force feed thier style of play witch worked for them but maynot work for someone else,,.



1

 

[Neil]

Yes thats correct ... thats becuase they usualy are not trying to force feed thier style of play witch worked for them but maynot work for someone else,,.



1

No matter how many times you repeat that same old worn out line, it won't make it be true, no matter how much you wish it was. Actually, the truth is just the opposite. The instructors are willing to teach several methods of play, as the many students on here have attested to. Unlike some pros on here that scoff at and ridicule any way but there own.

 

[Neil]

It's a drill......I'll get into the details of how it's done, and will need (for best results) to be on video asap.

How did I know you wouldn't actually answer the question....ever think of running for politics?

 

[one stroke]

No matter how many times you repeat that same old worn out line, it won't make it be true, no matter how much you wish it was. Actually, the truth is just the opposite. The instructors are willing to teach several methods of play, as the many students on here have attested to. Unlike some pros on here that scoff at and ridicule any way but there own.

The truth is always worth repeating , yes there are instructors who teach different methods by no stretch of the imagination is that all, a good instructor is well versed in different styles of mechanics and play to fit the individual


1

 

[CJ Wiley]

there are similarities to how each and every champion player performs.

Yes thats correct ... thats becuase they usualy are not trying to force feed thier style of play witch worked for them but maynot work for someone else,,.

1

No two pool players look the same at the table, however there are similarities to how each and every champion player performs. It's like building any structure, it starts with a firm foundation, then incorporating a pre shot routine that rehearses every aspect of the shot BEFORE you get down to shoot.....then, we can perform "as if" we've already made each shot. There is a systematical way of achieving this that I learned many years ago in Toronto Canada - snooker players understand this procedure very well, however, pool is slightly different.

This is the "difference that makes the difference" between the amateur and professional. 'The amateur practices until they "can" do it right, the professional practices until they "can't" do it wrong"....'The Game is the Teacher'

 

[Slasher]

One has to wonder, just how high can you pile philosophical bullshit before it comes tumbling down on you.

 

[CJ Wiley]

"different methods"

The truth is always worth repeating , yes there are instructors who teach different methods by no stretch of the imagination is that all, a good instructor is well versed in different styles of mechanics and play to fit the individual


1

What "different methods" are you referring to? Can you name 3 of them?

 

[rexus31]

I haven't caught all of this discussion but I took notice when you posted this. A lot of the reason that some pitchers can throw at a higher velocity and for a longer duration has to do with their bio-mechanics. How long or short their tendons are, how strong they are and how quickly they recover from minor or major tears. You most also consider what other pitches that they throw and how they throw them. If they have a high velocity curveball that they throw almost completely overhanded (Release point at 12 O'clock) than the chances for premature injury are greater than say a sidearm pitcher releasing the ball at 10 O'clock. Add to that the pitchers height and weight and diet and now you have 50 different factors as to why one pitcher could last longer than another. The computations are endless. Body mechanics is a great place to start but it is far from the only determining factor.

You are correct and validate my point. The bio mechanics you are speaking to is what I referred to (Nolan Ryan as well) as genetics. Physical mechanics (throwing motion) also plays a role but it has been proven to be a secondary reason for longevity as the motion of throwing an object overhand with great velocity is a very unnatural motion, regardless of physical mechanics, for the human body to perform. Thus, the breakdown of most pitchers as their careers advance. Those that do sustain velocity and have longer careers have bodies that better cope with the stresses of overhand throwing.

 

[The Renfro]

If I am in stroke and playing a lot I can put the cueball on the headstring bridge on the head rail and accurately hit the cueball on the break with accuracy... I found out I could do this because someone said I shouldn't drop my elbow or I would never be accurate and I picked something that was pure elbow drop and sword thrust in it's nature....

I think the skill that separates the pros from the also rans is their ability to know where the tip of the cue is and be able to control what the tip is doing at all times.. For some this comes naturally.. For those that it does not come naturally to they will need to rely on the pendulum and strict rote techniques to control the tip...

I told a friend of mine I would bet that Buste could basically take his cue one handed and flick it at you and leave a blue mark on your nose and you would hardly even feel it and it definitively wouldn't hurt.... He told Buste that and Francisco laughed and he said he thought he could likely do it....

This is also where the guys that shine can get away with elevating the cue however/whenever they want and force the cueball to their will while so many others struggle to play center ball and use a level cue....

I figure you either use english or get beat by it and you learn to use elevation or you get beat by it... While english doesn't really require anything but a pendulum, when you start to hit up thru the cueball and down into it if you cannot control the added muscles of the shoulder and elbow and wrist you are likely never going to be more than a good local player..... Granted the timing is more difficult and you can end up broke down if you aren't hitting balls all the time......

Playing centerball with a level pendulum stroke is never going to take anyone very far when they are playing with guys that have talent and do otherwise... I do however think that the pendulum should be what is taught to beginners because it's easy to teach and repeatable and the better players will evolve from it into more advanced stroke techniques..

I would say advanced stroke techniques only show up in less than 10% of shots... That 10% won't be taught but learned over a lifetime....

Chris

 

[The Renfro]

What "different methods" are you referring to? Can you name 3 of them?

I know you weren't asking me but I can name pendulum, piston, thrust and slip... reverse slip is cue tossing and that one I can not demonstrate.... The upstroke is like a rope pull and is advanced so it likely won't fit as a method......

All of these are different in the grip and starting grip position... the range of motion varies in the wrist, elbow and shoulder as do the way the fingers transfer the cue thru the striking area..... They all have different motors for the power source be it shoulder elbow or wrist....

As far as what is taught... You teach the thrust.. Many teach the pendulum and a few actually teach the piston....

Chris

 

[jay helfert]

I swear to God sometimes I feel like after 50 years in the game, I've learned absolutely nothing. I don't think I ever had one discussion in my life about dropping my elbow or even what that means. A lot of this other stuff discussed on here is foreign to me as well. Whatever stroke I have or had came naturally to me after thousands of hours of play. In all these years I've seen a million pool players with a million different ways of hitting the ball (yes this is an exaggeration but you get my point), and all of them worked for that particular player.

When Efren first arrived here, we all KNEW his stroke was all wrong and eventually all the top players would begin to rob him. Well it didn't quite work out that way, and we ended up the ones being robbed by an onslaught of filipinos (let's see, there was Efren and Jose first. Followed by Luat, Andam, Acaba, pump handle Bustamante, Gallego, Lining, Gabica, Kiamco, Sambajon, Orcollo, Corteza, Pagulayan, and now Biado). And the list just keeps on growing. Who did I leave out?

Bottom line, I've seen some weird guys with some equally weird looking strokes winning tournaments and money games. Somebody should have told them they were doing it all wrong. I just didn't have the heart to be the one to break the bad news to them that dropping their elbow will lead to ruin. Like Efren always said, he just "got lucky." Lucky to find all of us 'smart' pool players with money in our pockets. :thumbup:

 

[BeiberLvr]

I swear to God sometimes I feel like after 50 years in the game, I've learned absolutely nothing. I don't think I ever had one discussion in my life about dropping my elbow or even what that means. A lot of this other stuff discussed on here is foreign to me as well. Whatever stroke I have or had came naturally to me after thousands of hours of play. In all these years I've seen a million pool players with a million different ways of hitting the ball (yes this is an exaggeration but you get my point), and all of them worked for that particular player.

When Efren first arrived here, we all KNEW his stroke was all wrong and eventually all the top players would begin to rob him. Well it didn't quite work out that way, and we ended up the ones being robbed by an onslaught of filipinos (let's see, there was Efren and Jose first. Followed by Luat, Andam, Acaba, pump handle Bustamante, Gallego, Lining, Gabica, Kiamco, Sambajon, Orcollo, Corteza, Pagulayan, and now Biado). And the list just keeps on growing. Who did I leave out?

Bottom line, I've seen some weird guys with some equally weird looking strokes winning tournaments and money games. Somebody should have told them they were doing it all wrong. I just didn't have the heart to be the one to break the bad news to them that dropping their elbow will lead to ruin. Like Efren always said, he just "got lucky." Lucky to find all of us 'smart' pool players with money in our pockets. :thumbup:

For every guy like Efren and Bustamante with their "wacky" strokes, there's thousands more who tried to emulate them and fallen short.

They are the exception, not the rule.

 

[Neil]

I swear to God sometimes I feel like after 50 years in the game, I've learned absolutely nothing. I don't think I ever had one discussion in my life about dropping my elbow or even what that means. A lot of this other stuff discussed on here is foreign to me as well. Whatever stroke I have or had came naturally to me after thousands of hours of play. In all these years I've seen a million pool players with a million different ways of hitting the ball (yes this is an exaggeration but you get my point), and all of them worked for that particular player.

When Efren first arrived here, we all KNEW his stroke was all wrong and eventually all the top players would begin to rob him. Well it didn't quite work out that way, and we ended up the ones being robbed by an onslaught of filipinos (let's see, there was Efren and Jose first. Followed by Luat, Andam, Acaba, Bustamante, Gallego, Lining, Gabica, Kiamco, Sambajon, Orcollo, Corteza, Pagulayan, and now Biado). And the list just keeps on growing. Who did I leave out?

Bottom line, I've seen some weird guys with some equally weird looking strokes winning tournaments and money games. Somebody should have told them they were doing it all wrong. I just didn't have the heart to be the one to break the bad news to them that dropping their elbow will lead to ruin. Like Efren always said, he just "got lucky." Lucky to find all of us 'smart' pool players with money in our pockets. :thumbup:

Since you just said it, I'll ask you. Why is it that so many of you keep saying that instructors say that dropping your elbow will lead to ruin? How many times do instructors have to say just the opposite? Why do you and others keep on repeating total b.s. about what the instructors actually teach and say? Please show me even just one post where any instructor has stated that dropping ones elbow will unequivably result in ruin, or that a person cannot play great or even good pool by dropping the elbow.

You and others talk about everyone "getting together" to further the sport, yet you and others persist in repeating total rumors that only alienate a much needed part of the sport in this country. Well known fact that the players in this country are far behind the curve. So, the solution on here seems to be to knock instructors at every turn. Never been to one, don't really know what they teach, but it's the running joke on here, so go for it. Not just you, but others also. Nice way to advance the sport here.

 

[Neil]

If I am in stroke and playing a lot I can put the cueball on the headstring bridge on the head rail and accurately hit the cueball on the break with accuracy... I found out I could do this because someone said I shouldn't drop my elbow or I would never be accurate and I picked something that was pure elbow drop and sword thrust in it's nature....

I think the skill that separates the pros from the also rans is their ability to know where the tip of the cue is and be able to control what the tip is doing at all times.. For some this comes naturally.. For those that it does not come naturally to they will need to rely on the pendulum and strict rote techniques to control the tip...

I told a friend of mine I would bet that Buste could basically take his cue one handed and flick it at you and leave a blue mark on your nose and you would hardly even feel it and it definitively wouldn't hurt.... He told Buste that and Francisco laughed and he said he thought he could likely do it....

This is also where the guys that shine can get away with elevating the cue however/whenever they want and force the cueball to their will while so many others struggle to play center ball and use a level cue....

I figure you either use english or get beat by it and you learn to use elevation or you get beat by it... While english doesn't really require anything but a pendulum, when you start to hit up thru the cueball and down into it if you cannot control the added muscles of the shoulder and elbow and wrist you are likely never going to be more than a good local player..... Granted the timing is more difficult and you can end up broke down if you aren't hitting balls all the time......

Playing centerball with a level pendulum stroke is never going to take anyone very far when they are playing with guys that have talent and do otherwise... I do however think that the pendulum should be what is taught to beginners because it's easy to teach and repeatable and the better players will evolve from it into more advanced stroke techniques..

I would say advanced stroke techniques only show up in less than 10% of shots... That 10% won't be taught but learned over a lifetime....

Chris

Since you seem to be quasi-quoting someone, just who are you saying says to only use a pendulum stroke and only use center ball? And, just in case you didn't realize it, the top two proponents of a pendulum stroke are both former pros.

 

[Neil]

I swear to God sometimes I feel like after 50 years in the game, I've learned absolutely nothing. I don't think I ever had one discussion in my life about dropping my elbow or even what that means. A lot of this other stuff discussed on here is foreign to me as well. Whatever stroke I have or had came naturally to me after thousands of hours of play. In all these years I've seen a million pool players with a million different ways of hitting the ball (yes this is an exaggeration but you get my point), and all of them worked for that particular player.

When Efren first arrived here, we all KNEW his stroke was all wrong and eventually all the top players would begin to rob him. Well it didn't quite work out that way, and we ended up the ones being robbed by an onslaught of filipinos (let's see, there was Efren and Jose first. Followed by Luat, Andam, Acaba, pump handle Bustamante, Gallego, Lining, Gabica, Kiamco, Sambajon, Orcollo, Corteza, Pagulayan, and now Biado). And the list just keeps on growing. Who did I leave out?

Bottom line, I've seen some weird guys with some equally weird looking strokes winning tournaments and money games. Somebody should have told them they were doing it all wrong. I just didn't have the heart to be the one to break the bad news to them that dropping their elbow will lead to ruin. Like Efren always said, he just "got lucky." Lucky to find all of us 'smart' pool players with money in our pockets. :thumbup:

Have you even ever considered the possibility that you never got any better because of what you DIDN'T know?

 

[PaulieB]

Really Neil? The obvious point being made was that instructors have to teach to the masses, finding a method that tends to lead to success for most people. The point that Jay was making, with a little "tongue in cheek" attitude, was that some people just have tremendous skill and tons of experience and don't need to use the generally accepted methods for improvement. They spent billions of hours practicing their way of playing and it works for them. Their methods are not what people go to instructors for, they go to instructors for the most predictable way to improve their game, which is probably not the non-standard strokes that some pros have after a billion hours of playing.

I honestly don't know what has been going on with you lately Neil, but you have been exceptionally contrary lately, and I just hope you are OK. I think it is pretty apparent what everyone has been saying and what they have meant by their posts, yet you are nitpicking everything. I just wish you the best.

 

[Neil]

Really Neil? The obvious point being made was that instructors have to teach to the masses, finding a method that tends to lead to success for most people. The point that Jay was making, with a little "tongue in cheek" attitude, was that some people just have tremendous skill and tons of experience and don't need to use the generally accepted methods for improvement. They spent billions of hours practicing their way of playing and it works for them. Their methods are not what people go to instructors for, they go to instructors for the most predictable way to improve their game, which is probably not the non-standard strokes that some pros have after a billion hours of playing.

I honestly don't know what has been going on with you lately Neil, but you have been exceptionally contrary lately, and I just hope you are OK. I think it is pretty apparent what everyone has been saying and what they have meant by their posts, yet you are nitpicking everything. I just wish you the best.

I'm not nitpicking anything. I'm just actually reading what they write, and believing they mean what they say.

 

[jay helfert]

Since you just said it, I'll ask you. Why is it that so many of you keep saying that instructors say that dropping your elbow will lead to ruin? How many times do instructors have to say just the opposite? Why do you and others keep on repeating total b.s. about what the instructors actually teach and say? Please show me even just one post where any instructor has stated that dropping ones elbow will unequivably result in ruin, or that a person cannot play great or even good pool by dropping the elbow.

You and others talk about everyone "getting together" to further the sport, yet you and others persist in repeating total rumors that only alienate a much needed part of the sport in this country. Well known fact that the players in this country are far behind the curve. So, the solution on here seems to be to knock instructors at every turn. Never been to one, don't really know what they teach, but it's the running joke on here, so go for it. Not just you, but others also. Nice way to advance the sport here.

Sorry Neil if I shook your tree with my post. I think you missed the whole point I was making, which was "there is no one 'right' way to stroke the cue ball for absolute best results." My point was not about the pros and cons of dropping or not dropping your elbow. In truth (as I said here) I truly don't know which is better or worse.

I have a great deal of respect for the good instructors in pool, many of whom are good friends of mine. Believe it or not, I taught a course in Billiards (pool style) at UCLA in the 80's in their Experimental College program. I never got into the elbow stuff, just showed them how to make balls and how to develop their stroke and their eye. Kind of "old school" stuff. Some of the kids actually got fairly proficient over the course of one semester. But what do I know? I'm not BCA certified or anything else for that matter. :smile: