Drill to stop elbow drop
- Thread starter mantis99
- Start date
Can't really see from the front view just looked like the wrist was ulnar deviated which would indicate a forward position also looked to me she was not at impact so the arm would have moved even further forward.... Sadly I have not watched much of Allison.... I will have to take your word for it and admit my powers of observation in photos is highly suspect... I really really suck at pichunter =)
Flexing the forearm at the elbow from the paused position at the end of the backstroke.
"close the elbow" is a positive affirmation of what I want to happen after Pre-shot routine and dropping"into"the shot.
I don't want to jump up on the shot, I don't want my grip tightening,my wrist turning, or...my elbow dropping.
I instruct my body to do the positive thing (a pendulum stroke so good it would make RandyG giggle), which is what happens if I simply close (flex) the elbow and do nothing else.
That said, I wander in the wilderness of bangerhood like everyone else.
Sometimes my stroke resembles a bayonet lunge
Atomic draw stop shots with elbow drop happen. I am human. I am an amateur. I forgive myself.
Pete
Occasional flashes of B
Too often in the slough of D
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7We78kb1BeI&feature=related
Fast forward to 3:58.
A smoother follow might be a better alternative.
Fast forward to 3:58.
A smoother follow might be a better alternative.
The pendulum swing is commonly taught by many instructors, and elbow drop is a possible indicator of cue off alignment on the cue ball hit.
Oversimplifying the pendulum stroke, you move the cue by contracting the bicep, which only moves a hinge joint (elbow) and keeps the cue in alignment.
Adding the shoulder (ball and socket joint) can throw the cue off course because your fulcum (the elbow) may have moved. Same with a tight grip, as it can induce the wrist (another hinge joint) to curl.
I was taught by instructors that if the elbow drops after the hit, it doesn't affect the hit so its a non-issue.
Oversimplifying the pendulum stroke, you move the cue by contracting the bicep, which only moves a hinge joint (elbow) and keeps the cue in alignment.
Adding the shoulder (ball and socket joint) can throw the cue off course because your fulcum (the elbow) may have moved. Same with a tight grip, as it can induce the wrist (another hinge joint) to curl.
I was taught by instructors that if the elbow drops after the hit, it doesn't affect the hit so its a non-issue.
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You welcome, hate to see someone going through this type of pain.
Without seeing you play it is hard to say but here is my theory based on limited data available.
I’m going to assume you are shooting right handed. So, if you are left handed opposite applies.
One day you decided (or it just happened) to come into the shot straight in as much as possible and eliminate moving your ass out of the way.
This type of approach seems to work for short players but not for tall.
Anyway, this gave you a compact stance and security on small and medium distance shots, especially on straight in shoots.
Later you discovered that the power went away.
I would propose moving your bridge hand to the right.
Don’t worry about the stance just come into the shot in such a way that you can get your bridge hand to a point where your unobstructed shoulder can move up and down dropping the elbow without jumping off the stroking line.
The cue should be moving straight through the bridge all the way to the cue joint.
If you find this place you will be close to the proper shooting plane.
You want to be leaning to the right without leaning, if you bend at the waist it can be done.
If you can get Max Eberle’s – ‘Powerful Pool’, you will have 6 hours of great instruction for about $50-$60, worth every penny.
What happened to your stroke slip ?
That stroke looks good.
Too bad you're too tall for those short Forge tables.
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Yes, but not incorrectly. Ulnar deviation simply means moving your pinky closer to your ulna which is the forearm bone leading up to it. It is like cocking your wrist down. Radial deviation would be wrist movement in the other direction.
Ok, great, I thought that's kind of what it meant. I searched and found youtubes of people in therapy moving their wrists.
The Stroke Groover guy says the pendulum stroke is just one moving part.
Out of the sling while standing up, he demonstrates by moving just his fore arm. If he were holding a pencil (or a cue) the tip would point to the ceiling at the finish.
You have to do something at the end of the stroke to keep the tip in the neighborhood of the table.
1) Cock the wrist like I did, and I also let the cue pop out of my bridge
2) Unzip your fingers so you end up with just the little finger and palm like Ramin does (he's the guy in the background, have to get a vid of him)
3) Hold with just the thumb and forefinger like Efren, so you have a hinge
The Stroke Groover guy says the pendulum stroke is just one moving part.
Out of the sling while standing up, he demonstrates by moving just his fore arm. If he were holding a pencil (or a cue) the tip would point to the ceiling at the finish.
You have to do something at the end of the stroke to keep the tip in the neighborhood of the table.
1) Cock the wrist like I did, and I also let the cue pop out of my bridge
2) Unzip your fingers so you end up with just the little finger and palm like Ramin does (he's the guy in the background, have to get a vid of him)
3) Hold with just the thumb and forefinger like Efren, so you have a hinge
Attached is an image of wrist movement. And JohnnyP does have Ulnar Deviation...
It is very slight at setup and begins to additionally deviate at impact. If you look closely the arm is not quite parallel to the floor and it is slightly ahead of the 90 degree position if measured to the horizontal plane of the table.
The 90 degree angle should be measured to the plane of the cue at impact if you are attempting a neutral wrist. So the arm is even further forward when taking this into consideration.
Basically the issue is that the wrist was designed to move in more than one direction and the internal structure may not be completely consistent in resistance when Ulnar Deviation occurs. This leads to rolling the wrist. Actually flexing, extending, pronating and supinating can all be in response to a lack in range of range of motion during the ulnar deviation.
JohnnyP has a very good stroke in the video but I might suggest trying to move the grip hand back slightly to adjust the forearm to cue angle to 90 and I would suggest moving slightly closer to the cueball with the tip during setup to make sure that the 90 degree arm/cue angle is at contact and not occurring before. These 2 changes will provide a more neutral wrist at impact....
I am in no way saying that you HAVE to hit the ball with a neutral wrist...
Many professionals have very active wrist actions and they perform at world class levels... I am only offering a suggestion that will allow JohnnyP to try it out and see if it helps.....
It is very slight at setup and begins to additionally deviate at impact. If you look closely the arm is not quite parallel to the floor and it is slightly ahead of the 90 degree position if measured to the horizontal plane of the table.
The 90 degree angle should be measured to the plane of the cue at impact if you are attempting a neutral wrist. So the arm is even further forward when taking this into consideration.
Basically the issue is that the wrist was designed to move in more than one direction and the internal structure may not be completely consistent in resistance when Ulnar Deviation occurs. This leads to rolling the wrist. Actually flexing, extending, pronating and supinating can all be in response to a lack in range of range of motion during the ulnar deviation.
JohnnyP has a very good stroke in the video but I might suggest trying to move the grip hand back slightly to adjust the forearm to cue angle to 90 and I would suggest moving slightly closer to the cueball with the tip during setup to make sure that the 90 degree arm/cue angle is at contact and not occurring before. These 2 changes will provide a more neutral wrist at impact....
I am in no way saying that you HAVE to hit the ball with a neutral wrist...
Many professionals have very active wrist actions and they perform at world class levels... I am only offering a suggestion that will allow JohnnyP to try it out and see if it helps.....
I agree that the wrist should be neutral at impact, but kinematically it has to ulnar deviate in proportion to elbow flexion past the vertical line to maintain the cue on the same plane.
Well considering you don't want the drop during or right before contact I know of an easy drill that you don't need anyone's help with!
First think about what happens to the tip of the cue when you drop the elbow? It means the tip of the cue will come up right?
When hitting the cueball the ideal location of the cue would be level as most people will agree for most normal shots.
That being said with proper follow through after hitting the cue ball if you freeze then the proper placement of the tip should be slightly downward toward the table right?
Now with all that being said line up 7-8 balls along the header of the table (2 diamond spot) Now hit all those balls individually into the corner pockets at maximum speed and maximum top english on the balls.
If you are dipping your elbow this drill will provide very difficult, but trust me it will help you to quit dipping the elbow before the cue hits the ball.
Also get with Scott Lee or Randy G and they could give you some other drills to help ya out.
First think about what happens to the tip of the cue when you drop the elbow? It means the tip of the cue will come up right?
When hitting the cueball the ideal location of the cue would be level as most people will agree for most normal shots.
That being said with proper follow through after hitting the cue ball if you freeze then the proper placement of the tip should be slightly downward toward the table right?
Now with all that being said line up 7-8 balls along the header of the table (2 diamond spot) Now hit all those balls individually into the corner pockets at maximum speed and maximum top english on the balls.
If you are dipping your elbow this drill will provide very difficult, but trust me it will help you to quit dipping the elbow before the cue hits the ball.
Also get with Scott Lee or Randy G and they could give you some other drills to help ya out.
Correct... A small amount of deviation may not even hurt at impact when we are loose but happens when the muscles tighten up in the grip and wrist under pressure....
What you say about maintaining the plane is very important here... If you are attempting to maintain the table plane the tip will be swooping... You see lots of people do funny things because they are worried about bedding the cue tip onto the cloth so they try and change planes during the stroke...
I actually do think there is some merit in planing the cue out to the table bed but the process adds many elements not found in a pure pendulum with a neutral wrist......
mantis99...I put the water bottle on your elbow when I was at your house. You've just forgotten. Use Mother Drills 1 and 2 to remedy elbow drop. Perhaps a refresher is in order. I'll be in the Chicago area for the next 5 days.
Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
Scott, I remember you holding a cue against my elbow to keep it up, but I don't remember the water bottle. I really like the mother drills and see a lot of value in them. I was just looking for some type of drill that gives me kinesthetic feedback to use while performing the mother drills to help reinforce the elbow position. There is definitely something that I have allowed into my stroke over the past 6 months that has it a little faulty when I try to ramp it up. A refresher is probably a great idea but I am unavailable throughout the next week and my 3 girls take up most of the extra money these days, but maybe sometime in the future.
After my initial lesson I forced myself to do the mother drills and practice for a good hour 4-5 nights a wk, and my stroke was the most consistent and straight it has ever been. I am trying to get to some consistent performance of them again, and some organized practice to improve my abilities. Just trying to figure where the faults are really coming from.
After my initial lesson I forced myself to do the mother drills and practice for a good hour 4-5 nights a wk, and my stroke was the most consistent and straight it has ever been. I am trying to get to some consistent performance of them again, and some organized practice to improve my abilities. Just trying to figure where the faults are really coming from.
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So Wolven may get a gold star for the night. In looking at the causes of my stroke difficulty, I see 3 things that appear to be contributing. 1. elbow drop. 2. shoulder hiking/elevation when I try to stroke hard. 3. overgripping the cue. I am going to suggest that each of these lead into the other with the shoulder hiking possibly being the initiating factor. My upper trap muscle is often noticeably tight after playing just from hiking it.
I went to the table tonight for a little while and tried moving my bridge hand to the right as suggested above. I found that this caused my right hip to rotate back moving my butt out of the way and caused my shoulder to rotate back into a position where it could not really hike up. It also caused my elbow to fall into a much more natural feeling position instead of having to force myself to draw it up. Hitting balls with hard draw met with better results without me jumping the CB at all. I try not to get too excited about a short period of improvement because every time I think this is solved, it reappears the next time I play. This did feel noticeably different though.
I plan on doing some video of this stroke and comparing it to the video Scott took of me when he gave me a lesson to see if they are close overall.
To eliminate elbow drop, I once put a 1" wide strip of self-sticking velcro on my elbow and another piece on the belly of a small hamster. If I could keep him from falling while shooting power draw shots, I knew I had my elbow drop under control. I went through several hamsters before I finally got it under control.
Problem is...if the hamster was subject to watching the stroke I put on the ball...it would pull out it's field knife and cut itself away from my arm killing itself.