Dropping your elbow

railbird99

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Looking at the object ball last is not close to a myth, I have yet to read anywhere where a good player looks at the cue ball during the last stoke. Only time may be during a break or a masse/jump shot

I personally look at the OB last, and don't understand how you could excel otherwise.

However, in the "Break and Run" DVD box set, Rodney Morris says that he looks at the CB last, and he mentioned that many of the top filipinos do also. He may have even said Efren does, but I can't remember.

Link to DVD: http://runoutmedia.com/breakandrun.html
 

CJ Wiley

ESPN WORLD OPEN CHAMPION
Gold Member
Silver Member
This is vital information to continually calibrate your "feel for the pocket"

I personally look at the OB last, and don't understand how you could excel otherwise.

However, in the "Break and Run" DVD box set, Rodney Morris says that he looks at the CB last, and he mentioned that many of the top filipinos do also. He may have even said Efren does, but I can't remember.

Link to DVD: http://runoutmedia.com/breakandrun.html

You have to carefully define what "last" means to the player. I look at the cue ball last, however, when I pause on my backstroke ALL my attention goes to the object ball so I can see what pocket it contacts.

This is vital information to continually calibrate your "feel for the pocket" - when the object ball hits one side or the other, I'll immediately change my acceleration (more if the ball under-cuts, less if it under-cuts) or TOI slightly to force it {the object ball} back to the center.
 

ENGLISH!

Banned
Silver Member
Rick - excellent point IMO, and one that is not made frequently or forcefully enough. Looking from the outside, all you see are the outward manifestations of what a player is doing. And describing the pool stroke in these terms has two major problems:

First, looked at from this perspective all the little nuances are impossible to describe - or even understand. (CJ's remarks about the limitations of video analysis as a teaching tool speak to this). As a result when explaining the different parts of the billiard stroke, important points are continually mis-described and misunderstood.

Secondly, and often more damagingly, this 'outward-in' description tends to get students of the game focusing on what their bodies are doing. Instead they should be focusing on what they want the cue (or better, the balls) to do. This is terrible way to try learn a complex motor skill. No wonder people find the game difficult.



I think that the butt will naturally lift at the end of a long backswing, unless you have trained yourself not to do it. I don't believe that anything is 'causing' the lift other than the fact that there is no reason for the elbow to move at this end of the stroke when the cue is coming to a gradual stop. If the elbow does not move, the but will naturally lift

The opposite happens at the other end of the stroke, ie when you are letting the cue go. Here the momentum of the cue and arm will tend naturally to result in the elbow dropping (unless you have trained it not to).

But ultimately, I doubt that it matters in the way that people often think. Top players differ in the way they do a lot of things, I don't think that this means that any method will work if you 'hit a million balls' and have enough talent. Nor do I think it means that top players are fundamentally different from each other, and therefore they are suited to different approaches. Instead I that it think that the variation in what we see in players' styles shows that a lot of what we see is not actually important. And this covers a number of what some consider to be fundamental aspects of the pool stroke. It is what is going on at a deeper level that is important. Whether we can see it or not.

Thanks Siz, & again I agree with very much of what you said, especially your last statement, but not all of what you said, but the differences are not really that important or worth going into & may just be a language thing.

However you mentioned two things that I think are important. 'Naturally' & 'trained' or 'trained not to'. I'm going to repeat myself because I don't remember if I said it in my post to you or not. A rather prominent golf instructor said, 'I may not be able to build a Championship Winner, but if I am not careful, I can certainly ruin one.'.

We are individuals. Some things are basic fundamentals while other things are individually specific fundamentals.

Bubba Watson's golf swing is his & no instructor is going to teach that to anyone. But Brandle Chamblee found something in his swing that is common to many of the past longer hitters that also had longevity & that was allowing the front heel to come off the ground to better enable a long swing. They are teaching the opposite of that at this current time. Perhaps they are being short sighted.

Best Wishes to You & Yours,
Rick
 
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CJ Wiley

ESPN WORLD OPEN CHAMPION
Gold Member
Silver Member
I've never seen you pause on your backstroke. I'm talking about a noticeable pause......we all pause, if only for a fraction of a second.

I've never seen you either......go figure.
 

BeiberLvr

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Glad for it too............most of the greats in this game end up struggling later in life (sad but true).

You don't see me but you see my words............others do too.;)

:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:
 

Scott Lee

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
This just shows how much you don't know, CJ...video analysis is just as important for advanced and experts (even pro players). That said, you don't know what you don't know...and you'll never learn the value of video for better players because you already know everything. You'd think that if you had the respect for Randyg (the top instructor in the country) that you should have (after all you did long ago go through pool school with him), you'd sit down with him and at least debate the merits vs. "folly" of advanced video analysis. You might actually learn something. :rolleyes:

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

Video analysis is okay for beginners, I mainly teach intermediate and advanced players. At this level it's more about the subtleties that video simply can't capture - at the end of the day, pool is about feel, touch and a pre-shot routine that rehearses every aspect of the shot BEFORE it's executed.

This is something not many can explain and demonstrate effectively. As far as teaching this using video......it would definitely not help at all.

'the Game is the teacher'
 

Scott Lee

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
DTL...We sure do (even those that think they don't)! Great post. Some of us pause shorter than others...mine is 2/10's a a second, but a really smooth transition from backswing to forward stroke. Buddy pauses for about 2 seconds.

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

I'm talking about a noticeable pause......we all pause, if only for a fraction of a second.
 

CJ Wiley

ESPN WORLD OPEN CHAMPION
Gold Member
Silver Member
Did you even read what the subject was?

This just shows how much you don't know, CJ...video analysis is just as important for advanced and experts (even pro players). That said, you don't know what you don't know...and you'll never learn the value of video for better players because you already know everything. You'd think that if you had the respect for Randyg (the top instructor in the country) that you should have (after all you did long ago go through pool school with him), you'd sit down with him and at least debate the merits vs. "folly" of advanced video analysis. You might actually learn something. :rolleyes:

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

I've probably been on video more than you, would you like to compare?

I didn't say video couldn't help, just not int he area we were discussing. Did you even read what the subject was?
 

CJ Wiley

ESPN WORLD OPEN CHAMPION
Gold Member
Silver Member
saving the student years of frustration because of an inability to improve

Rick - excellent point IMO, and one that is not made frequently or forcefully enough. Looking from the outside, all you see are the outward manifestations of what a player is doing. And describing the pool stroke in these terms has two major problems:

First, looked at from this perspective all the little nuances are impossible to describe - or even understand. (CJ's remarks about the limitations of video analysis as a teaching tool speak to this). As a result when explaining the different parts of the billiard stroke, important points are continually mis-described and misunderstood.

Secondly, and often more damagingly, this 'outward-in' description tends to get students of the game focusing on what their bodies are doing. Instead they should be focusing on what they want the cue (or better, the balls) to do. This is terrible way to try learn a complex motor skill. No wonder people find the game difficult.

This is correct!!!

I have a way to connect the entire body to the cue, then use the cue as a reference. This is very advanced, however, it can be taught to beginners and intermediates players in a matter of 12-15 hours (over 4-7 sessions).

It's not easy, although the rewards are priceless, saving the student years of frustration because of an inability to improve every day, in every way. 'The Game is my Teacher'
 

ENGLISH!

Banned
Silver Member
Rick - excellent point IMO, and one that is not made frequently or forcefully enough. Looking from the outside, all you see are the outward manifestations of what a player is doing. And describing the pool stroke in these terms has two major problems:



This is correct!!!

I have a way to connect the entire body to the cue, then use the cue as a reference. This is very advanced, however, it can be taught to beginners and intermediates players in a matter of 12-15 hours (over 4-7 sessions).

It's not easy, although the rewards are priceless, saving the student years of frustration because of an inability to improve every day, in every way. 'The Game is my Teacher'

Hi CJ,

I just posted about athletes in another thread. An athlete has to feel what they are doing & make that connection to the implement that they are using, whether it be bat, racket, club, or whatever.

Looking at video & seeing from the outside, to me, is only a good thing if one THINKS they are doing something that they are not or THINKS that they are not doing something that they are & do not believe what the coach or instructor is telling them.

Then a video can be used to convince the athlete of what the coach or instructor is telling them. I never needed video, I just asked the player, 'What... do you really think that I am lying to you about what I'm seeing?'. After that they generally accepted what I was telling them.

Many times I have given instructions describing what a player should do to no avail. It was not until I took a literal hands on approach & made them feel what I was talking about that it finally clicked for them.

Anyway, as You well know, it's all about what comes from within & what one 'feels'. Athletes know that. Others I guess just don't get it.

To me, it's rather difficult if not impossible to have any real feel with the implement that is to be used if it is just sitting in one's hand. It's like you've said, we need to be able to control the cue well enough to sign our name in the air above the cue ball. At least that's how I feel about it.

Maybe there needs to be two different approaches to playing the game. One for athletes & one for intellectuals. Not that one can't be both at the same time.

Best 2 You & All,
Rick
 
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