Dropping your elbow

ENGLISH!

Banned
Silver Member
No you making assumptions that I'm trying to say you cant hit the white accurately antagonises me. I used to have nothing but respect for you, Patrick. But since you've come back you just come across as a bitter old man that has to pass the time by starting and getting involved in confrontations on here. Sad to say it but the sooner you take a vacation the better this forum will be. Probably won't be waiting too long I'd imagine.

:thumbup2: :thumbup2: :thumbup2:
 

WildWing

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Main thing is to follow through, finish off the stroke. If that drops the elbow then drop it. If it drops the shoulder, then drop it. Drop your pants if you have to, but finish off that stroke. Most don't do it.
 

ENGLISH!

Banned
Silver Member
Main thing is to follow through, finish off the stroke. If that drops the elbow then drop it. If it drops the shoulder, then drop it. Drop your pants if you have to, but finish off that stroke. Most don't do it.

You just reminded me of a time I was playing in a small bar after work & I was wearing double pleated pants with large pockets to match the pleats. I was shooting the money 8 ball & caught my thumb on the pants pocket & missed the 8.

When I luckily got another shot on it, I got into position & then dropped my pants to my thighs & pocketed the 8. Several of the guys were smiling & laughing. I just said, 'you gotta do what gotta do'.

Best 2 you & All,
Rick
 

Scott Lee

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
This is why pro players sometimes make poor instructors. They have no idea what they are talking about. Snooker players, or poolplayers who play with the cue on their chin, and do not elbow drop, don't "dig" their tip into the cloth. The tip finishes angled down. However, that in itself is irrelevant to the discussion. The cue only needs to be level at contact, which lasts a quarter of an eye blink. What the tip does after contact doesn't matter, because the CB is gone, and can have no effect on the physical outcome of the shot.

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

You need to drop your elbow.. This ensures the cue follows through level..
If you do not drop your elbow, the cue digs straight down into the table and you get a 2" follow through..

Basically, you are supposed to drop it during the actual stroke, not during the warm up strokes..

Think about a pendulum... the weight makes an arc. This is your hand.. if you do not drop your elbow (shoulder), the cue must go into the table since you have a fixed point at the butt..

Its easy to do but I can see why some instructors teach no elbow drop..Its sometimes difficult to make the motion fluid so just eliminate it, until someone who knows better down the line shows them.. :)
 

Neil

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
No you making assumptions that I'm trying to say you cant hit the white accurately antagonises me. I used to have nothing but respect for you, Patrick. But since you've come back you just come across as a bitter old man that has to pass the time by starting and getting involved in confrontations on here. Sad to say it but the sooner you take a vacation the better this forum will be. Probably won't be waiting too long I'd imagine.

Need ten more like Pat, and no more with attitudes like yours. You are the one being antagonistic here. Funny how whenever someone ask you a legit question, they are being antagonistic.
 

Patrick Johnson

Fish of the Day
Silver Member
No you making assumptions that I'm trying to say you cant hit the white accurately antagonises me. I used to have nothing but respect for you, Patrick. But since you've come back you just come across as a bitter old man that has to pass the time by starting and getting involved in confrontations on here. Sad to say it but the sooner you take a vacation the better this forum will be. Probably won't be waiting too long I'd imagine.
I honestly don't know what set you off here. Your reaction seems way out of proportion to whatever it is.

pj <- ?
chgo
 

SmoothStroke

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I use a pump stroke; roll over stroke, bicycle stroke on my preliminary strokes. My elbow is moving up and down, my forearm is moving in and out, my wrist is along for the ride. (Efren and Busty type of warm ups) On my last pull stroke everything comes to a stop (Pause) I am locked and loaded at that moment, then deliver. Sometimes my elbow drops sometimes it doesn't, it depends on the shot, spin and speed.

This style is easier for me to keep my stroke straight than other methods. I don't feel any tension, I feel loose and smooth, and staying straight is not even a thought. I watch how a student cues up and I determine what the best technique is accordingly for their natural and adjust as needed. I then show them other techniques on ball striking and let them decide what feels best for them, and then we build.

If you want to label it ridiculous go right ahead, it's funny how many top players do not use a conventional stroke, or a fixed elbow. They use this thing called knowledge, experience and feel. God forbid you should discuss aiming low cue ball.

It's amazing after they finish the stroke the cue carries on to completion or extended follow through. The cue may extend and lay on the cloth for a dust stroke or it may clear almost straight up in the air. You will never ever, I repeat never ever see this in instructional books or taught by conventional instructors, it's basically out of the equation. It's 2015 and time to write a new book.

I disagree; I think these methods are a major part of the game, far above text book and traditional learning. I don't go to the table without them, especially with a student. It's easy to train a robot, when you can train a robot to feel that's another story.

Not long ago a World Champ, US Open Champ was on fire. I am not doing the name dropping thing and he said she said crap so this is it, he told me he has been working on his backhand for a year, adding more of the pump stroke, and he was spending a lot of time in the Philippines.

You may use any method you want, Pendulum, Piston, Bullcrap, it doesn’t matter, never rule out other possibilities, what is good for you may not be good for me.

Listen to the commentary starting at about 35 seconds in and watch.
Efren Reyes creative straight pool

There are many ways to strike a cue ball, open your mind and let the stroke flow in.Watch Efren use the extended follow through and dust stroke , or the low ball strike and clear the cue stick up. You will not get this in books. I teach it almost daily and would not change it ever.

Bring your straight stroke, your touch and feel.

Sincerely: SS
 

ENGLISH!

Banned
Silver Member
^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^

Michael,

What you do seems similar to coaching a baseball team at the playground level with young children. A whole team of boys show up & almost no two swing the baseball bat the same way. As a coach you know that there is not enough time to completely teach 'a proper swing' to each of them before the first game. So... you take a good look at what each is doing & you try to make a change that they need the most that might help them evolve best from there on out, even though you know you will have other opportunities to tweak their swing further.

Most often it's that they are not connected to the bat in a manner that is most conducive to making a good swing. So you show them that first. Then it seems the next issue is stance & step. So, you try to show them that. With those two aspects, many may be well on their way to evolving into making a good baseball swing even though there is much more than just that that can be taught.

What I don't do is teach them each a 'just make contact' swing, at least not until I get a much better feel of their natural ability. Some have the makings of what might be a natural powerful home run type swing. If I teach them that 'just make contact' swing I might ruin a potential home run hitter.

The point is simple. We are all individuals & a single cookie cutter does not fit all of us & we should not be forced into that mold. Once forced into that mold there is no guarantee that that home run hitter will ever break out of that 'just make contact' mold. While it seems many either don't understand this or perhaps they may just not care, I can see & know that you do know this.

Best 2 You & All,
Rick
 
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ps611846

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
i use a pump stroke; roll over stroke, bicycle stroke on my preliminary strokes. My elbow is moving up and down, my forearm is moving in and out, my wrist is along for the ride. (efren and busty type of warm ups) on my last pull stroke everything comes to a stop (pause) i am locked and loaded at that moment, then deliver. Sometimes my elbow drops sometimes it doesn't, it depends on the shot, spin and speed.

This style is easier for me to keep my stroke straight than other methods. I don't feel any tension, i feel loose and smooth, and staying straight is not even a thought. I watch how a student cues up and i determine what the best technique is accordingly for their natural and adjust as needed. I then show them other techniques on ball striking and let them decide what feels best for them, and then we build.

If you want to label it ridiculous go right ahead, it's funny how many top players do not use a conventional stroke, or a fixed elbow. They use this thing called knowledge, experience and feel. God forbid you should discuss aiming low cue ball.

It's amazing after they finish the stroke the cue carries on to completion or extended follow through. The cue may extend and lay on the cloth for a dust stroke or it may clear almost straight up in the air. You will never ever, i repeat never ever see this in instructional books or taught by conventional instructors, it's basically out of the equation. It's 2015 and time to write a new book.

I disagree; i think these methods are a major part of the game, far above text book and traditional learning. I don't go to the table without them, especially with a student. It's easy to train a robot, when you can train a robot to feel that's another story.

Not long ago a world champ, us open champ was on fire. I am not doing the name dropping thing and he said she said crap so this is it, he told me he has been working on his backhand for a year, adding more of the pump stroke, and he was spending a lot of time in the philippines.

You may use any method you want, pendulum, piston, bullcrap, it doesn’t matter, never rule out other possibilities, what is good for you may not be good for me.

Listen to the commentary starting at about 35 seconds in and watch.
Efren reyes creative straight pool

there are many ways to strike a cue ball, open your mind and let the stroke flow in.watch efren use the extended follow through and dust stroke , or the low ball strike and clear the cue stick up. You will not get this in books. I teach it almost daily and would not change it ever.

Bring your straight stroke, your touch and feel.

Sincerely: Ss

great post my friend.
 

tonythetiger583

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Ronnie O'Sullivan thinks of hitting the cue ball with his elbow.....many people can benefit from trying this technique, it works for me and many I've suggested it to over the last year.

All sports I've participated in require a precise elbow movement (golf, tennis, baseball, basketball). I've found that many players don't know how to position their elbow in FRONT of their body properly. The pool stroke is so much easier when there's an attempt to keep it in front of your line of sight. This isn't literal, however, I do get the sensation that I'm shooting "out of my chest" (or the center of my body).

Could you elaborate on the idea of hitting it with your elbow? I'm not sure if I'm doing it right.
 

demonrho

Registered Amuser
Silver Member
...if you make contact at near zero acceleration (at peak speed), the speed of the cue stick is constant over a considerable distance and the exact instant of contact is not important for the speed of the ball.

Very interesting to know when one is trying to think out what is actually happening with one's stroke. Also, illustrates the importance of using precise language when one is discussing mechanics. (Of course, one person's "velocity" is another's "viscosity".)
 

CJ Wiley

ESPN WORLD OPEN CHAMPION
Gold Member
Silver Member
The acceleration is essential for precision and accuracy.

Could you elaborate on the idea of hitting it with your elbow? I'm not sure if I'm doing it right.

When you reach the pause in your back-swing, start the forward motion with your elbow. This keeps everything together as a unit so the wrist is delayed slightly so it can release at the moment of contact.

The acceleration is essential for precision and accuracy.

I teach this technique, however, it takes a very seasoned eye (and ear) to be able to present the student with accurate feedback. It happens so quickly you have to work with someone until they get it right (through systematic "trial and error"), then encourage them to do it respectably until they start to develop the new habit.

This generally takes approximately 90 minutes in most cases.
 

BeiberLvr

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
When you reach the pause in your back-swing, start the forward motion with your elbow. This keeps everything together as a unit so the wrist is delayed slightly so it can release at the moment of contact.

The acceleration is essential for precision and accuracy.

I teach this technique, however, it takes a very seasoned eye (and ear) to be able to present the student with accurate feedback. It happens so quickly you have to work with someone until they get it right (through systematic "trial and error"), then encourage them to do it respectably until they start to develop the new habit.

This generally takes approximately 90 minutes in most cases.

Or you could actually try being a good instructor, and record your students (if they allow it).
 

The Dragon

Registered
If done at all, it should be done on purpose and for a reason otherwise I feel it contributes to stroke mechanic errors. but that's me....

if you have a good stroke and can deliver the tip to the ball on target then why not... if you feel yourself slipping off your game... then maybe it's something to work on.
 

CJ Wiley

ESPN WORLD OPEN CHAMPION
Gold Member
Silver Member
You can't see this on video.....as a matter of fact

Or you could actually try being a good instructor, and record your students (if they allow it).

You can't see this on video (some things require all our senses to process effectively).....as a matter of fact, I could tell you what I'm doing and you still couldn't see it unless I slowed it down and explained it in vivid detail.

This is literally true, I have many students that will verify this amazed them and when they saw it their perception of the pre-shot routine changed.

'The Game is the Teacher'
 

BeiberLvr

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
You can't see this on video (some things require all our senses to process effectively).....as a matter of fact, I could tell you what I'm doing and you still couldn't see it unless I slowed it down and explained it in vivid detail.

This is literally true, I have many students that will verify this amazed them and when they saw it their perception of the pre-shot routine changed.

'The Game is the Teacher'

You know you could slow down video right, and it catches every little thing.

Not trying to be a jerk. Just trying to help you be better at what you do. No charge.
 

CJ Wiley

ESPN WORLD OPEN CHAMPION
Gold Member
Silver Member
The only way you can learn this technique is through feel, touch and precise feedback

You know you could slow down video right, and it catches every little thing.

Not trying to be a jerk. Just trying to help you be better at what you do. No charge.

Your point is logical, although we'll have to "agree to disagree" - sometimes things aren't quite how they appear, pool, in many ways, is an optical illusion.

I'll assure you video taping is a total waste of time and money - this is from experience, not from my anything else. The only way you can learn this technique is through feel and touch, not through any visual technology on this (or any other) planet.

I teach this process many times a week and the results speak for themselves. The student can only learn it through trial, error and precise feedback on exactly what they're doing and trying to achieve.

'The Game is the Teacher'

 

ENGLISH!

Banned
Silver Member
Your point is logical, although we'll have to "agree to disagree" - sometimes things aren't quite how they appear, pool, in many ways, is an optical illusion.

I'll assure you video taping is a total waste of time and money - this is from experience, not from my anything else. The only way you can learn this technique is through feel and touch, not through any visual technology on this (or any other) planet.

I teach this process many times a week and the results speak for themselves. The student can only learn it through trial, error and precise feedback on exactly what they're doing and trying to achieve.

'The Game is the Teacher'


I see a saxophone player trying to seduce a pretty 'girl' with his sultry sounds.

What does it mean when you can see both at the same time?
 

ENGLISH!

Banned
Silver Member
Here is a bit of a fun diversion.

This is what is called an Atlatl.



Remove the human anatomy from the picture above.
Does anyone see an up side down pool stroke?

Perhaps this will help.



Remember... it's up side down & for now, remove the human anatomy from the picture & just look at the apparatus.

Here are some hints. Please read them one at a time & then look at the picture.

The short piece of wood would be the forearm.

The short little 'sleeve' where the projectile sits would be the hand.

The long projectile would be the pool cue, perhaps held at the very butt end for these pics.

The hand would be the elbow.

The elbow would be the shoulder.

The man's forearm would be the upper arm.

The sequence of pics moves from left to right because of body rotation & the man's shoulder & elbow moving forward (to the right).

Imagine them pushed back together & meeting at the man's elbow which would be the shoulder for the pool stroke. Picture the man's movement with the man's elbow stationary. His elbow would be the shoulder.

Remember... it's up side down so maybe turning the computer screen up side down will help.

Perhaps someone can turn the pic upside down to make it easier to see.

Sometimes it's a bit of fun to look at things in a different way.

Sometimes doing that provides some food for thought.

Best 2 All,
Rick

PS It was 2:00 AM & I could not fall asleep & this is what came into my head.
 
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irock

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
CJ, could this be what happens, when you are playing just so so in a tournament, then about half way through the tournament you hit a gear, and seem to be hitting the ball really well. Is there a way to find that spot with your stroke earlier, other than hitting many balls?
 
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