Earl Strickland & Johnny Archer pool-school review

[mullyman]

Probably because Earl is completely WRONG insisting that you should play outside english on ALL long cut shots. That is ludicrous...I don't care how many championships he's won. While it may work for him, it will not work for many players. I bet that Archer would not advocate that advice!

It reminds me of my mentor, Jack White, who insisted that he NEVER shot off center more than one tip...but did what he called "load up the rock" (get tons of english)! It took me two years, and finally close up, slow motion, stop-action video, to prove to him that he was, indeed, hitting much farther off the center of the CB than he would admit to...which was responsible for the amazing spin he could get on the CB.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

Even if he was wrong I don't think it's the place of someone trying to learn from him to try and put him in his place and make him look the fool. If you, figuratively speaking, don't have his credentials then your opinion means nothing.
MULLY

 

[Neil]

................

 

[av84fun]

Even if he was wrong I don't think it's the place of someone trying to learn from him to try and put him in his place and make him look the fool. If you, figuratively speaking, don't have his credentials then your opinion means nothing.
MULLY

I think that we would have had to have been there to hear exactly what was said and in what context.

Earl obviously likes to spin the CB and so do a LOT of other pros who have advised..."Let the spin do the work"...meaning that you can shoot much more softly than most amateurs do and still get plenty of CB distance from the spin off the rails.

I assume your comment was directed to Peer and not Scott Lee who has huge "credentials."

Just because he is not a world champion means exactly zero regarding his knowledge and his ability to convey that knowledge to students.

If being a "champion" was a prerequisite for being a great teacher, then millions of students are wasting huge sums of money by attending college.

The old saying that "Those who can do and those who can't, teach." is one of the dumbest sayings of all time.

It should be restated to "Those who can do and those who can teach, teach."

Proof? Follow the money. Hundreds of billions of dollars have been donated by college alumnai funds by college graduates who make those contributions in gratitude of the education they received from professors...most of whom have never held jobs in the sectors about which they teach.

Regards,
Jim

 

[Bob Jewett]

... If you, figuratively speaking, don't have his credentials then your opinion means nothing. ...

Well, no. If you see enough champions up close and in person you will find out that some of them are excellent students of the game and some of them are completely clueless about a lot of things that some of us struggle to learn. Note that I'm not saying who is which in the particular case being discussed, I'm just pointing out that I've heard some world champions spouting buffoonery. It's possible for some students to tell wheat from chaff without being able to run 11 racks.

As to your first point, that's covered in http://www.sfbilliards.com/articles/2005-09.pdf which discusses giving and taking lessons. Peer may have followed the wrong strategy to get the most out of his time in AZ. In the end, the benefit of those lessons will show up in a change in his game. If his game does not change, the lessons were worthless to him. I'll watch him closely and report his progress.

 

[bfdlad]

Ok, lets not blow this out of proportion. Here is basically what happened PLEASE listen. Earl showed his students at the time the way his does things and how he does it, then Johnny showed them the way he does it. Obviously both are different styles and you take what works for you or what you feel comfortable with. Please keep this thread positive for me. If it becomes negative then it will hurt me when trying to put another together and maybe stop anyone else from getting a chance to attend a pool school. I do my best to bring things new and different here to PHX and if this turns negative it will only make an already tough job harderr to do. Thanks, and I hope you understand.

 

[CocoboloCowboy]

Think you need to work on another Pool School, after the Summer HEAT like October, as I think the last one was on short notice, and had the lead time been longer you would have had more students hungry for Pool Knowledge.

 

[Neil]

...............

 

[mullyman]

Do you guys know what "figuratively speaking" means? It means that I when I said "you" to Scott I wasn't saying "you" meaning him personally but "you" meaning people in general.

Also, if you find a thread about "Who would you like to learn from?" , or something to that effect, I stated that just because someone is a great player doesn't mean they are a great teacher. Earl may be a horrible teacher, but he's still a world champion and if you're taking a lesson from him you should listen and not get cocky with him. It's one thing to ask his opinion but the way this guy presented himself in his original post it seemed fairly clear that he probably TOLD Earl Strickland that he wasn't right. Takes a large set to do something like that if you ask me.
MULLY

 

[Scott Lee]

tap, tap, tap!

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

The top instructors have become that for a reason. They don't just have one persons point of view, they have hundreds of points of view all combined for the best results.

 

[JoeyA]

How does Archer apply English?

To John & Peer:

Did Johnny Archer tell you or show you how to apply English?
1. If so, was it like Strickland, PIM, pivot in motion, swiping across the cue ball on the final stroke to get the needed English?

2. Set up with English, anticipating cue ball deflection and aiming to counteract the squirt & swerve.

3. Aim shot with centerball, then move backhand to apply needed English, then make final stroke.

4. Front hand English.

5. Other.

Thanks,
JoeyA

 

[JoeyA]

Listen, ask questions, listen and say thank you!

I have taken MANY lessons from professional pool players. Each of them had their own unique perspective about pool and how to give a pool lesson.

I will often ask them to clarify things that I either didn't understand or things that I disagreed privately with. You would never catch me attempting to embarass them by correcting them even if I knew they didn't know what squerve meant.

It has been most beneficial to me to ask questions and listen carefully to their explanation. Even good teachers have their agenda and will communicate what they want you to hear.

So for pool lessons, I suggest: Listen, ask questions, listen and say thank you.

After the lesson, you choose what to keep and what to discard.

Often, the problem in communication is not with the teacher but with the student and sometimes it can be either or both.

JoeyA

 

[Neil]

.............

 

[Peer]

pics or it didnt happen!!!

There were pictures taken by a photographer, and I think Mark said he's gonna send those out.

Sushi tastes best when shared with a hot Asian pool player.

Like Charlie Williams, Efren Reyes, or Sum Yung Guy?

Perhaps you think those guys are hot, that's okay. But no offense, I tend to exclusively elevate towards the X chromosomes when it comes to hotties.

Interstingly, today, some pros I have spoken with do use quite a bit of english. My boyfriend uses a lot of english. I cannot envision him playing in a tournament not using english.

Also I happen to use english on pretty much all my shots, but if you read my post, I think it's clear that this wasn't really the issue.

Interesting about the english usage, no pun intended -- well, maybe no pun intended! "All in all" is not hyphenated."

Since you seem to be so keen on correcting my English, perhaps you should check yours first..? ("Interstingly" "separting", etc.)

I enjoyed reading your post about lessons from 2 of the best players in the pool world. I can understand why you went to the trouble you did to learn for Johnny and Earl and I hope that you learned something from both of them to help your pool game in the future. Thanks for taking the time to post this story and for passing on some of the tips.

Oh, thank you. I think I learned quite a bit, perhaps not necessarily the intended stuff. As I said, the highlight of Earl's session was his pattern play instructions which gave me some new ideas.

But re: the guy who ragged on Earl for miscueing, you didn't recite exactly what was said but if I owned or managed the room the guy would have been told to not let the door hit him on the ass on they way out. Totally disrespectful and out of line.

He might have left shortly after, I dunno. I agree, it wasn't very tactful, even if it perhaps was intended as a joke.

AS YOUR CLASSMATE WITH EARL AND JOHNNY, I MUST DISAGREE WITH THE DESCRIPTION THAT JOHNNNY "CORRECTED" THE HIGH BRIDGE EARL HAD PRESENTED TO US. JOHNNY MADE IT CLEAR TO ME AND I THOUGHT TO THE GROUP THAT HE WAS NOT CORRECTING EARL'S GRIP BUT MAKING IT CLEAR HE DOESN'T TEACH THAT BRIDGE BUT THAT DOESN'T MAKE EARL'S WRONG. NICE TO MEET YOU AND I ENJOYED IT AS MUCH AS YOU DID.

Don't know if you remember that Archer indeed corrected my bridge hand several times, the last was when he whacked it with his cue. Of course both Earl and Archer have mutual respect for each other, and hence won't impose their teaching over the others. Anyways, as I said earlier, it was very nice meeting both you and Garrick. And yes, it was a brilliant day.

-- peer

 

[Peer]

Earl may be a horrible teacher, but he's still a world champion and if you're taking a lesson from him you should listen and not get cocky with him. It's one thing to ask his opinion but the way this guy presented himself in his original post it seemed fairly clear that he probably TOLD Earl Strickland that he wasn't right. Takes a large set to do something like that if you ask me.
MULLY

This is pure bovine excrement. Reading your post had me laughing out loud even as I winced at the depiction. It's sad indeed that you apparently cannot recognize the real content of your own remarks. YOU WEREN'T EVEN PRESENT AT THIS EVENT, BUT YET YOU'RE TELLING PEOPLE ON THIS FORM HOW I MISTREATED EARL.

In contrary to the stories you concoct, I can tell you -- since I was there -- that no one "got cocky with him", no one "told him that he wasn't right", no one "made him look the fool", no one discredited "his credentials", no one said he's "a horrible teacher", no one "challenge him", and no one (in the class) disrespected him -- not a single bit.

Again, both Earl and Archer were very friendly and helpful -- their class was a very hands-on informal "show-you-some-stuff" type of class. Since it was quite interactive, naturally different ideas were tossed around. And as I said, the entire event was most inspiring and comprehensive, and I certainly hope Mark can get Earl and Archer to do this again.

Hope this clarifies it for you, Mr. Mullyman.

-- peer

 

[Scott Lee]

mullyman...I knew you were not talking about me specifically. I also agree with your viewpoint of not 'ridiculing' your instructor, whoever it may be. However...a student has the right to voice an opinion, or ask any question directly related to the lesson material. As was mentioned by others; just because someone is a world champion doesn't necessarily mean that they know everything they're talking about. That's why all lessons (and instructors) have to be taken with a 'grain of salt', allowing each individual student to choose what information they believe is beneficial to them, and discard or ignore things that are not. I think this "clinic" was a wonderful opportunity for the people who were there, and hopefully it will be repeated in other areas of the country.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

Do you guys know what "figuratively speaking" means? It means that I when I said "you" to Scott I wasn't saying "you" meaning him personally but "you" meaning people in general.

Also, if you find a thread about "Who would you like to learn from?" , or something to that effect, I stated that just because someone is a great player doesn't mean they are a great teacher. Earl may be a horrible teacher, but he's still a world champion and if you're taking a lesson from him you should listen and not get cocky with him. It's one thing to ask his opinion but the way this guy presented himself in his original post it seemed fairly clear that he probably TOLD Earl Strickland that he wasn't right. Takes a large set to do something like that if you ask me.
MULLY

 

[Scott Lee]

Bob...Fast Larry calls it "top draw"!

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

There are still some pretty good players who believe that they can hit the cue ball in the center and get lively draw. It sort of reminds me of my friend in high school who would try to get extreme follow on the cue ball and end up drawing it. Elbow lift.

 

[av84fun]

I have taken MANY lessons from professional pool players. Each of them had their own unique perspective about pool and how to give a pool lesson.

I will often ask them to clarify things that I either didn't understand or things that I disagreed privately with. You would never catch me attempting to embarass them by correcting them even if I knew they didn't know what squerve meant.

It has been most beneficial to me to ask questions and listen carefully to their explanation. Even good teachers have their agenda and will communicate what they want you to hear.

So for pool lessons, I suggest: Listen, ask questions, listen and say thank you.

After the lesson, you choose what to keep and what to discard.

Often, the problem in communication is not with the teacher but with the student and sometimes it can be either or both.

JoeyA

Joey, I think your comment touches on the issue of having some reason to know whether you are in the presence of an "instructor" or a "teacher."

Anyone with information can "instruct" by merely giving instructions regarding what they do.

A TEACHER, is that special breed who can isolate the student's strengths and weaknesses and adopt the VARIOUS ways of going about playing the games of pool in a way most likely to benefit THAT GIVEN STUDENT.

If you are in a session with a known TEACHER, I would be very, VERY reluctant to pick and coose from there teacher's advice because I know from personal experience that it can take weeks if not MONTHS to fully adapt (into the subconscious) some of the most critical advice the teacher recommended.

Often, the student will go BACKWARD while incorporating the vital advice given. Most good teachers will WARN the student of that.

On the other hand, not all great champions are great teachers. My buddy Bobby Pickle...when he brings his A game can and has beaten just about everyone...once very excitedly said "Jimmy, let's work on 3 rail banks."

I said "GREAT...how do you do it." He got sort of a funny look on his face and said..."I don't know, I just do it."

After I got up off the floor from laughing we proceeded to work on other things.

I'm just saying that if your TEACHER gives you advice and you reject it without giving the advice a serious and lengthy trial, you either are afraid that the person giving the advice was not a good teacher or you wasted your money.

Regards,
Jim

 

[mullyman]

This is pure bovine excrement. Reading your post had me laughing out loud even as I winced at the depiction. It's sad indeed that you apparently cannot recognize the real content of your own remarks. YOU WEREN'T EVEN PRESENT AT THIS EVENT, BUT YET YOU'RE TELLING PEOPLE ON THIS FORM HOW I MISTREATED EARL.

In contrary to the stories you concoct, I can tell you -- since I was there -- that no one "got cocky with him", no one "told him that he wasn't right", no one "made him look the fool", no one discredited "his credentials", no one said he's "a horrible teacher", no one "challenge him", and no one (in the class) disrespected him -- not a single bit.

Again, both Earl and Archer were very friendly and helpful -- their class was a very hands-on informal "show-you-some-stuff" type of class. Since it was quite interactive, naturally different ideas were tossed around. And as I said, the entire event was most inspiring and comprehensive, and I certainly hope Mark can get Earl and Archer to do this again.

Hope this clarifies it for you, Mr. Mullyman.

-- peer

Well, you say it's a bunch of bull poopy but explain this. In your own words you said:

Although I did quite well in school as a kid, I was never a good student, i.e., 'good' as in quietly accepting everything the teachers served us. This might also relate to my distaste I had for authorities at the time -- whether it was my teachers, parents, police, or any "high-horse" person that tried to imposed things on me -- I had a hard time conforming and taking orders.

Why even mention that you have problems with authority figures unless you're trying to justify some kind of behavior on your part? In all fairness, your problems with authority figures should have nothing to do with pool school........unless of course you challenged the teacher.....which it seems like you did.


Then you said....

At one point Earl set up a very tight cut shot, carefully marked with chalk. The purpose was to show that the only way to pocket a cut shot like this was to apply outside english. After trying to make the shot, over and over again, Earl concluded that he must have set it up too tight. Well, I started to argue that it would perhaps be easier (and more precise) to use no english but just focus on hitting it as thin as possible and hard. My fellow student Garrick agreed. But when Earl insisted that there was no way to make this shot without outside english, to his dismay I stepped up and made the shot, with no english at all (and with my gnarly European snooker cue I may add). Earl wasn't too happy.

I can see you telling him "You don't need spin on that shot" then telling him "Here, let me take a shot at it." Again, I'm assuming this from the way you presented yourself as having a problem with authority figrues.

Then you go on to say:

This led to a discussion on what would be the safest way to pocket a long cut shot when no position play was required. I would think a natural roll (e.g. center follow) would be the best shot. Earl emphatically disagreed, telling us that we should always put outside english with some draw on all long cut shots. Just as for the previous thin cut shot that he missed, I again argued that the more english you apply to a shot, the more factors are introduced that you somehow have to contend with. Whether it's squirt, throw, or swerve, those factors will also be compounded by, for example, different table cloths, or from one set of balls to another, etc. Earl, who actually complained quite a bit that the balls we used were too light, completely dismissed my reasoning and insisted that we should ALWAYS use english.

Now, you can say what you like, but these are the words YOU used to describe yourself and the way you handled those situations. Maybe because I'm a high school teacher I'm imagining some of my students that act the way you describe yourself. If I'm wrong I apologize but again, only going by what you said.
MULLY

 

[Peer]

In all fairness, your problems with authority figures should have nothing to do with pool school........unless of course you challenged the teacher.....which it seems like you did.
[...]
I can see you telling him "You don't need spin on that shot" then telling him "Here, let me take a shot at it." Again, I'm assuming this from the way you presented yourself as having a problem with authority figrues.

I understand that you prefer to "see" things your way, but I don't appreciate it. Below you'll find a copy & paste of my clarification to you. Instead of going on with your skewed gestimates of an event that you weren't even part of, could you please read it -- I'm sure if you put your mind into it, you'll understand what ACTUALLY happened, and what did not happen:

This is pure bovine excrement. Reading your post had me laughing out loud even as I winced at the depiction. It's sad indeed that you apparently cannot recognize the real content of your own remarks. YOU WEREN'T EVEN PRESENT AT THIS EVENT, BUT YET YOU'RE TELLING PEOPLE ON THIS FORM HOW I MISTREATED EARL.

In contrary to the stories you concoct, I can tell you -- since I was there -- that no one "got cocky with him", no one "told him that he wasn't right", no one "made him look the fool", no one discredited "his credentials", no one said he's "a horrible teacher", no one "challenged him", and no one (in the class) disrespected him -- not a single bit.

Again, both Earl and Archer were very friendly and helpful -- their class was a very hands-on informal "show-you-some-stuff" type of class. Since it was quite interactive, naturally different ideas were tossed around. And as I said, the entire event was most inspiring and comprehensive, and I certainly hope Mark can get Earl and Archer to do this again.

Hope this clarifies it for you, Mr. Mullyman.

-- peer

 

[mullyman]

Well, like I said, just going by the way you wrote the story and I apologized if I was wrong. If you can't accept that then there's not much I can say to make things better.

I'm glad you enjoyed the session and wish I had the same opportunity. I hope you got something out of it that will improve your game.
MULLY