Efren or Allison?

[bgb]

A shortstop? Isn't that between a B and an A? Allison is much stronger than that, you guys just really don't know do you? As I said, I watched Allison shoot a 7 pack, what difference would it make who was sitting in the chair? How many shortstops can do that... have you ever really watched her play. I mean really?

A lot of shortstops can run racks, and so can a lot of the top women players. The issue is getting to the table in order to do it. I've played both and I promise Efren could give her just about anything up to and including the 6 out. General wisdom is that he could give that same spot to an awful lot of top players too. You just don't understand what that guy can do on a pool table - it defies description.

I don't know what Efren's highest run of racks is, but I do know that he played the 9 ball ghost once and beat it 96 in a row or something. That my friends is one tough turtle to drown.

 

[JoeyInCali]

I used to play at HT and was there 1 night Efren played a local Mexican A player,he spotted him the 8 and shot left handed for 500$ races to 7.Efren was running out or playing crazy safes lefty.It was rediculous

I was at HT one night.
Efren played that same small Mexican guy some last pocket 8-ball.
Efren had to shoot left-handed or one-handed with his right hand.
Efren still won. Ran two racks even.

 

[shinobi]

I don't even know you, but I'm pretty confident when I say that I'm sure he breaks better than you. Yes, in the 80's and part of the 90's his break was pretty weak for a player of his caliber, but that has changed. He doesn't do all of the jumping around theatrics of some of the "big breakers", but the guy has a solid break. Have you, by any chance, watched any of his 9-ball matches from the last 2 DCC's? You're only seeing what you want to see to support your beliefs if you have honestly seen the guy break in recent years and still think "he can't break worth a shit". You should play him some next time he's in a town near you. He gives up a lot of weight, and he'll even play fairly cheap. I see him playing locals at Hard Times for $100/set some times. I think you'll come away from the game with a different outlook on his break.

I agree. Efren's break has improved dramatically over recent years. And for those that may have seen him use a jump cue recently, he isn't bad with that either!

 

[girlwon1]

Okay Pete, I just re-read this part, and have to say WTF are you talking about? Men do not have any regional tours? If a man wants to play in a pro event all he has to do is pay his entry and he is in. ALL WOMEN who play in the WPBA have taken their share of bumps on regional tours cause that is the only way to get there.
I am the verteran of three tours myself and have driven hundreds of miles, stayed in seedy motels and eaten crappy food, only to draw Kim Shaw or Julie Kelly in the first round get to the hill and loose...are those enough bumps for you?
I am really not sure most people have any idea what it takes to play this game, which in the end offers little back. You do it for the passion and nothing else.

When Pete is talking about the women paying their dues in the regional tour arena, that can be in no way compared to what you and I do in the regional ladies events. My winning these events against women who may at best run 3 -4 balls consistantly is not even close to "taking bumps" against the great regional talent the men's tournaments offer.

Amar Kang, Tony Chohan, Baraks, Marshall Jung, Jimmy Mendoza, Dan Wallace, Tony Anagoni, Dan Louie.....

So, saying that Karen and Allison, or any of the top 16 have gone through what Pete is talking about is crap. He is talking about getting really beat over and over again like most of the men that come up and rise past this regional/semi-pro level. Pretty soon, these men (or any woman that would go out and consistantly get tortured) won't get beat so often. And then, turn into champions themselves.

From not knowing what a shortstop is, to the gross underestimation of really how the top 100 men play, I am not so sure you know what you are talking about, IMO.

Tina Pawloski

2 time regional tour winner, APA 7 and APA 9, and a female that in comparison plays like absolute shit compared to any one of the men I have listed above.

 

[cuechick]

When Pete is talking about the women paying their dues in the regional tour arena, that can be in no way compared to what you and I do in the regional ladies events. My winning these events against women who may at best run 3 -4 balls consistantly is not even close to "taking bumps" against the great regional talent the men's tournaments offer.

Amar Kang, Tony Chohan, Baraks, Marshall Jung, Jimmy Mendoza, Dan Wallace, Tony Anagoni, Dan Louie.....

So, saying that Karen and Allison, or any of the top 16 have gone through what Pete is talking about is crap. He is talking about getting really beat over and over again like most of the men that come up and rise past this regional/semi-pro level. Pretty soon, these men (or any woman that would go out and consistantly get tortured) won't get beat so often. And then, turn into champions themselves.

From not knowing what a shortstop is, to the gross underestimation of really how the top 100 men play, I am not so sure you know what you are talking about, IMO.

Tina Pawloski

2 time regional tour winner, APA 7 and APA 9, and a female that in comparison plays like absolute shit compared to any one of the men I have listed above.

I am not sure how you got all that from this one statement:

But until more women are willing to take the same bumps that the men do in the regional tours, like KarrenCorr, and Julie Kelly, I don't think it will happen.


Isn't it all relative, bumps are bumps and where ever or however you pay your dues it does not negate the effort. The level of play has little to do with it, IMO.The fact remains that women have to earn their entry (unless the have a local promoter spot) into pro events and men in most cases do not. I took that comment to mean that only Karen and Julie had done this (I realize now he meant there participation on the Joss tour). Still, most women I know now playing on the WPBA tour have taken their fair share of bumps.

I am not saying women are at the same level as men. I do believe though, and I am pretty sure you would agree, that playing a man who is at your same level gives him no advantage by just being male. I, as I am sure you do, play men all the time, and beat them on a regular basis. There are so many levels in this game and like a pyramid it can narrow as you get to the top.
I do have a very high regard for Allison's game and see very few flaws, I think she is an exception not the rule, and playing even against the top men would be very tough...but closer than many here may think. Again, that is just my opinion.

By the way, I do know what a shortstop is or at least what it is here in the south and was just surprised that the poster would compare her to one. I also do know very well hopw the top hundred men play. I am tortured on a weekly basis by my coach who is one of the best players in the South East and in tournaments I have played Johnny Archer, Tony Robles and Ginky...got my ass kicked and enjoyed every minute of it.

 

[girlwon1]

Pete's post

But until more women are willing to take the same bumps that the men do in the regional tours, like KarrenCorr, and Julie Kelly, I don't think it will happen.


When I read Pete's post, I took it to mean getting beat on a regular basis on the men's tour. Those are the bumps you have to go through to get better, playing people that are better than you, until you are better than them. To not start a "why women do not play as good as the men do" thread, the men keep getting better because they typically play each other. It will take some ego bruising and hard knocks to those top competitors in the ladies tour to go out there and play on these men's regional events and get beaten for awhile. I am not trying to argue that these players do not have the ability to win matches, or have a good tournament. I mean winning them, coming in the top 5 consistantly. I applaud that Julie and Karen are playing these events!

I am sure that Pete is well aware of the "effort" that all go through including the women to have to travel to tournaments, sleep in substandard hotels, etc. You, I think, noticed after I posted that he did write Julie and Karen, not Allison and Karen. That is because he is referring to the finale Joss tournament, where both travelled and are playing presently.

To quote you..

Okay Pete, I just re-read this part, and have to say WTF are you talking about? Men do not have any regional tours? If a man wants to play in a pro event all he has to do is pay his entry and he is in. ALL WOMEN who play in the WPBA have taken their share of bumps on regional tours cause that is the only way to get there.
I am the verteran of three tours myself and have driven hundreds of miles, stayed in seedy motels and eaten crappy food, only to draw Kim Shaw or Julie Kelly in the first round get to the hill and loose....


What does it matter in the argument that women have to win a qualifer to gain or earn entry to a pro event where all men have to do is pay for it? It is about level of play and that is what this thread is about. So you win a ladies regional event and earned a spot in the pro event. Who cares? So we have to go through that process? What does that matter? What everyone is stating in this thread is that any shortstop would consistantly (and very easily) beat the top ladies. I know many "shortstops" that would beat Allison giving her weight, forget putting Efren in the picture.

And for everyone thinking I am saying anything about Allison personally, I am not. I am only talking about level of play, which is what this thread is about. No other woman I have met on the tour is as outgoing, pleasant, and kind as she has always been to me. It is unfortunate I have to add this little part, but I find someone always wants to start something out there.

Although I think it is great that you play and continue to get beaten by your "coach", it is hard to compare that with the pressure of spending a bunch of money to go to a tournament where you know you don't have the best of it. Knowing if you miss, you lose. That you lose more than just a fun or even hard practice set with your coach, that maybe you lose half of your bankroll in entries and expenses. That's the pressure I am talking about. I guarantee you will play that better safe, make sure you are making the ball, and play the smarter shot. In the ladies regional tournaments, I miss alot, don't run out, play bad safes, and can still win. I guarantee you can't on the men's.
I think I mentioned on a different thread that Jimmy Mendoza ran 7 racks on a guy at the Swanee event. The play I can get away with on the regional women's tours would not even come close to winning against that.

 

[sniper]

You guys are getting off my original path. What I was trying to say was that if Allison had a designated breaker, and because Efren can't break worth a shit IMHO, Allison would be favoried to win.

I don't think so. Your wrong about Allison winning and Efren having a shitty break. Were only talking nine ball here, what if the two were to match up at eight ball, straight pool, and rotation as well? I suppose Allison would dominate Efren then as well?

 

[Renegade]

I don't think so. Your wrong about Allison winning and Efren having a shitty break. Were only talking nine ball here, what if the two were to match up at eight ball, straight pool, and rotation as well? I suppose Allison would dominate Efren then as well?

I'm sure Efren can beat Allison in those games. But to make things really interesting, why don't we get Efren to play Allison in a snooker match?

I guess this would sort of even things out. Then we'll see who's really the better cue artist.

 

[JoeyInCali]

I'm sure Efren can beat Allison in those games. But to make things really interesting, why don't we get Efren to play Allison in a snooker match?

I guess this would sort of even things out. Then we'll see who's really the better cue artist.

I'll stake Efren on 3-C, straight-rail and Balkline against Allison.
She can have 2 to 1 spot on any of those games.
Race to 50 points, 200 and 100 on those games.

 

[vapoolplayer]

why don't we get Efren to play Allison in a snooker match?

I guess this would sort of even things out. Then we'll see who's really the better cue artist.

no it wouldn't.........not at all............snooker and pool are two ENTIRELY different games.

VAP

 

[cuechick]

Pete's post

What does it matter in the argument that women have to win a qualifer to gain or earn entry to a pro event where all men have to do is pay for it? It is about level of play and that is what this thread is about. So you win a ladies regional event and earned a spot in the pro event. Who cares? So we have to go through that process? What does that matter? What everyone is stating in this thread is that any shortstop would consistantly (and very easily) beat the top ladies. I know many "shortstops" that would beat Allison giving her weight, forget putting Efren in the picture.

And for everyone thinking I am saying anything about Allison personally, I am not. I am only talking about level of play, which is what this thread is about. No other woman I have met on the tour is as outgoing, pleasant, and kind as she has always been to me. It is unfortunate I have to add this little part, but I find someone always wants to start something out there.

Although I think it is great that you play and continue to get beaten by your "coach", it is hard to compare that with the pressure of spending a bunch of money to go to a tournament where you know you don't have the best of it. Knowing if you miss, you lose. That you lose more than just a fun or even hard practice set with your coach, that maybe you lose half of your bankroll in entries and expenses. That's the pressure I am talking about. I guarantee you will play that better safe, make sure you are making the ball, and play the smarter shot. In the ladies regional tournaments, I miss alot, don't run out, play bad safes, and can still win. I guarantee you can't on the men's.
I think I mentioned on a different thread that Jimmy Mendoza ran 7 racks on a guy at the Swanee event. The play I can get away with on the regional women's tours would not even come close to winning against that.

Okay Tina,

First off, I do play in Open Events (what you and Pete refer to as "Men's Regionals"), every chance I get, Tommy Kennedy (where I drew Johnny Archer), Viking, and a tough weekly unhandicapped 9-Ball tournment at the Pool Room in Marietta. I agree I learn more in these events than the women's events I play in.However, Monica and Helena also enter these events and I have never seen either finish lower than the top 8. And recently Melissa Herndon was in town and finished 4th or 5th. She also play Kid D in the big Apple Event and though she lost it was closer than many I am sure would have thought (7-10? I think) to me this shows great progress among the top women.

I did misunderstand Pete's original comment as I said in my reply to you I had never heard the open tours refered to as regionals before. So I see we were talking about two different things.

Now as far as this shortstop thing goes, you will have to tell me what that means in your area cause here in the south it is below an A but better that a B+ LIke a B++. I do not beleive for a moment that Allison is less than an Open player. As I said in an earlier post, the one Tommy Kennedy event she played in she won. This is an event filled with much higher level players than B++.
It is obvious we may never agree on this...to me your really underestimating her ability, there is a reason she has dominated the womens tour the way she has and she has rarely had to break a sweat to do it. You forget she spent years playing men in England and paying her dues and learning honing her skills. I doubt any of us here have even seen what she is truely capable of.

 

[Pete]

Cuechick, I'm just curious, what do you consider your skill level at D - Open?In a 9-Ball Tournament race to 7

Dec.1997 "All About Pool" magazine, article by Bob Cambell
Handicap rankings

D- Player
-will not run a rack
-average run is about 3 balls
-with ball in hand, will get out from the 7, one out of 3 times
-rarely plays a successful safe

C-Player
-will probably run one rack, but usually not more than one
-avg. run is 3 to 5 balls
-with ball in hand, will get out from the 7, two out of 3 times
-mixed results when playing safe
-inning ends due to botched position, missed shot or attempting a safe.

B-Player
-Able to run 1 to 3 racks
-avg. run is 5-7 balls
-with ball in hand will get out form the 5, 2 out of 3 times
-most of the time a "B" player will play a "safety" which maybe hit easily 2 out of 3 times
-a typical inning will end with a missed shot, a fair safety, or a won game

A-Player
-will string 2 to 3 racks
-avg. ball run, 7-9
-with ball in hand, will be out from the 3 ball, 2 out of 3 times
-typical inning will end with a well executed safety or a win.

OPEN-Players
-average 8+ balls
-string racks together more than once in a match
-is a threat to run out from every ball, from every position, every inning
-typical inning will end in excellent safety or win

Because I do agree that Alison and a few (but only a few from what I've seen on tv), are really at the open player level (I may be wrong though).

But I will also add that I don't think Alison or any of the other women sen on tv are world beaters.

Pete

 

[Ken_4fun]

Anyone that doesnt take Efren must hate their money

This is truely laughable.

I think cuechick is the reason the casinos have those nice buildings and flashy lights.......

I can't imagine.

Ken

 

[JoeyInCali]

to me your really underestimating her ability, there is a reason she has dominated the womens tour the way she has and she has rarely had to break a sweat to do it. You forget she spent years playing men in England and paying her dues and learning honing her skills. I doubt any of us here have even seen what she is truely capable of.
CC, I think you are underestimating what Efren and some other male pros have gone thru. Efren, Bustamante and Pagulayan have been playing money games since they could barely reach over the table.
I don't know if you know the pressure of gambling but gambling against these murderers' row is on a much different level than playing in the WPBA ( with due respect of course ).
Jennifer Chen got the 6-out from Santos Sambajon and she didn't get to shoot much at all. I've seen Efren give the orange crush AND the breaks to a local player who could easily win the WPBA regional here.
Let's even say Allison would beat Efren with the 6-out, but WW even implying Allison could beat Efren if someone broke for her is beyond me.

 

[Eric.]

When Pete is talking about the women paying their dues in the regional tour arena, that can be in no way compared to what you and I do in the regional ladies events. My winning these events against women who may at best run 3 -4 balls consistantly is not even close to "taking bumps" against the great regional talent the men's tournaments offer.

Amar Kang, Tony Chohan, Baraks, Marshall Jung, Jimmy Mendoza, Dan Wallace, Tony Anagoni, Dan Louie.....

So, saying that Karen and Allison, or any of the top 16 have gone through what Pete is talking about is crap. He is talking about getting really beat over and over again like most of the men that come up and rise past this regional/semi-pro level. Pretty soon, these men (or any woman that would go out and consistantly get tortured) won't get beat so often. And then, turn into champions themselves.

From not knowing what a shortstop is, to the gross underestimation of really how the top 100 men play, I am not so sure you know what you are talking about, IMO.

Tina Pawloski

2 time regional tour winner, APA 7 and APA 9, and a female that in comparison plays like absolute shit compared to any one of the men I have listed above.

Tina,

You bring upa good point. IMO, this isn't about men being better than women because of genetics or some other weird ass theory, it's more about the general level of play.

Men tours generally have a higher overall level of play. There usually is a larger amount of "Open" players ina Men's Open Tourney then a Women's "Open". From what I've seen, on Women's regional tourneys, you may have a couple of "A" players, several "B"'s and alot of C and D players. The majority are between a C and B. With the Men's regionals, you have true Open players. Usually, at least half the field are true Open level players, with the remaining filed filled with A and B players.

My point is that I feel that the dominant female player on any regional tour may only play at a B+ or A level. Put her into a Men's regional and she may only finish in the middle of the pack.


Eric >just one gender-neutral observation

 

[Opie]

Now as far as this shortstop thing goes, you will have to tell me what that means in your area cause here in the south it is below an A but better that a B+ LIke a B++.

I live in the south and a shortstop is not a B+ player. I'm like 30 mins from Nashville and if you play with the shortstops there they can and will consistantly put 6 packs on you. And when you finally get to the table, you better get ready to kick at something. Maybe I'm mistaken, but I didn't think a B player could frequently put 6 packs on you.

 

[Opie]

Okay, so far I have counted 4 suckers

Even though you guys and I believe that Efren is currently the greatest player on the planet, it is obvious to me that you guys do NOT know the value of the break in 9 ball when you get up into the upper levels of pool.

You knock Efren's break and talk about it's value in 9 ball. However, you yourself also agree that he's the "greatest player on the planet", so evidently his break is not that bad.

 

[vapoolplayer]

Now as far as this shortstop thing goes, you will have to tell me what that means in your area cause here in the south it is below an A but better that a B+ LIke a B++..

thats not what a shortstop is in your area either.

VAP

 

[mmath3154]

Efren any day...

I'm no woman hater but these comparisons in any sport get me nuts. WNBA as I refer to it "Below the Rim" when the NBA is "Above the Rim". Please pick any sport and the men will dominate on an even field, track, course, court, or table. Why is it that women seem to not be able to just accept it, and some men in their wildest dreams think there is ANY fair comparison? Efren would beat Allison like a red headed step child...with freckles! Ohh, let's give her a spot, bigger pockets, Efren has to shoot one handed jacked up with his jump cue, with a broom handle. Hell, I may be able to win with one of those. Please people, face the facts. Let's give women their fair place as great players and atheletes in their own right, against other women, and leave it at that.

 

[girlwon1]

thats not what a shortstop is in your area either.

VAP

Thanks...

I was waiting for a couple of people from that area to chirp up to let her know what a shortstop level is. A shortstop is a word to describe a player just under pro level, but way above local A players. A shortstop putting a 6 on a player would not be uncommon. It is the same everywhere, understood the same everywhere.