Efren Reyes in the 1990s vs Current SVB

predator said:
I will disagree with most here.
If Efren of 20 or 25 years ago is indeed better than Shane of year 2012, that would mean that there was no progress in quality of pool game. None what so ever.
And that would also mean that future top guys from year 2032. for example might not get any better than current top guys like Darren, Shane, or top guys from 25 years ago. Have we reached the human limit? Already? How believable is that?

I don't know what is it with pool fans, but most think that peak performance of Efren is some kind of pool perfection and that nothing can top that, ever...am I close? My opinion is, no matter how good one gets, there's always room for improvement.

There is a constant progress in every single sport, physical types, non physical types, other cue games...you name it. Is pool some kind of exception? I don't think so.

I like both players very much, but I'm no fanboy of either. Shane is better, no question.
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I think the virtual top performance level in the game was reached over 60 years ago. I see your point that there's always room for improvement, but until SVB and others are running over 100 balls EVERY day or stringing 9 packs together at least once per tournament, then we're still stuck at roughly where the game's been for decades. I find it interesting that Mosconi's run record still stands after 4 decades...there are plenty of straight pool players out there trying, some have come close, but not yet. I don't see dramatic improvements in performance coming soon and don't see a lot of dayight between the top gear of players in the 80s and today. SVB is potentially the best ever, but let's see him get there first!
 
The same Shane from the Mosconi cup 2011?... no comparison with Efren, sorry.
(Efren is approaching 60, and how old is Shane?)
 
Tables

West Point 1987 said:
I think the virtual top performance level in the game was reached over 60 years ago. I see your point that there's always room for improvement, but until SVB and others are running over 100 balls EVERY day or stringing 9 packs together at least once per tournament, then we're still stuck at roughly where the game's been for decades. I find it interesting that Mosconi's run record still stands after 4 decades...there are plenty of straight pool players out there trying, some have come close, but not yet. I don't see dramatic improvements in performance coming soon and don't see a lot of dayight between the top gear of players in the 80s and today. SVB is potentially the best ever, but let's see him get there first!
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If SVB played on 8' tables with 5.5" pockets he would be running 20 packs everyday.
 
1990 only?

thread is Efren in the 1990s... but if allowed ...

I will take Caesar Morales and never look back....
 
spanky79 said:
What I want to see is Efren and Shane play "horse" on a pool table.
Efren would do things Shane has never seen or thought of.
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That's what I think separates Efren from everyone else that's ever picked up a cue. His creativity. He comes up with shots that other people couldn't even see as an option and then executes those shots. Shane mentally is one of the best in the game today but I don't think his creativity is anywhere near Efrens.
 
predator said:
I will disagree with most here.
If Efren of 20 or 25 years ago is indeed better than Shane of year 2012, that would mean that there was no progress in quality of pool game. None what so ever.
And that would also mean that future top guys from year 2032. for example might not get any better than current top guys like Darren, Shane, or top guys from 25 years ago. Have we reached the human limit? Already? How believable is that?

I don't know what is it with pool fans, but most think that peak performance of Efren is some kind of pool perfection and that nothing can top that, ever...am I close? My opinion is, no matter how good one gets, there's always room for improvement.

There is a constant progress in every single sport, physical types, non physical types, other cue games...you name it. Is pool some kind of exception? I don't think so.

I like both players very much, but I'm no fanboy of either. Shane is better, no question.
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And you reach this conclusion simply based on the premise that the quality of all sports/games must progress over time?

Using that same premise, you must also conclude with "no question" that Kobe Bryant is better than Jordan in his prime. You think so?
 
jsp said:
And you reach this conclusion simply based on the premise that the quality of all sports/games must progress over time?

Using that same premise, you must also conclude with "no question" that Kobe Bryant is better than Jordan in his prime. You think so?
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Right, that train of thought gets "misused" a lot. I think most would agree the speed of average and even above average players gets better over the years (ie there are way more solid players today than 30 years ago). But the VERY top levels I don't think necessarily get better with time in a sport like pool.

I already stated my opinion, and I do know the efren shane history.... but i think if this match were to take place shane would be crapping his pants (and rightly so) and it would be ho-hum for efren. Stuff like that is the difference.
 
spanky79 said:
NO he wouldn't, no one on earth is going to run 20 packs every day, stop dreaming
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I have to agree. I even posted a thread about this awhile back because a pretty low level pro claimed that he broke and ran 18 straight racks of 8 ball, and I didn't think it was quite possible considering Shane has even said he hasn't run that many and he is without a doubt the best barbox player alive and probably ever.
 
master_cueist said:
I have to agree. I even posted a thread about this awhile back because a pretty low level pro claimed that he broke and ran 18 straight racks of 8 ball, and I didn't think it was quite possible considering Shane has even said he hasn't run that many and he is without a doubt the best barbox player alive and probably ever.
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Ever, no, I will take Matlock and Mcready. Throw in Buddy to.
 
Is Efren capable of playing long matches, say up to 100 still? If so, I would like to see the present day Efren play Shane. Sure, he'd be the underdog, but I've learned to never doubt Efren
 
What most people fail to realize is Shane couldn't beat Efren playing left handed in his prime.

Efren's left hand is about the last 2 behind his right.
 
Good grief. What a thread!

I had a dog named Lady who was the best dog in the world. She followed me everywhere, was loyal, and so playful. She was beautiful. Everybody loved Lady. When I had to put her down 20 years ago, it was awful.

Today I have a dog named Sammy Boy. He's 13 years old and suffers from laryngeal paralysis and bad hips. The entire time I have owned Sammy Boy. he has never had an accident in the house. His loving brown eyes look at me and excude his love for me. He is the best dog in the world.

Ask me which dog is the best dog in the world.
 
Gen0va said:
The same Shane from the Mosconi cup 2011?... no comparison with Efren, sorry...
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Yup, same guy. Can't get out of a trapdoor.
2011 Tournament Results:
Payout Place Event
$11,000 1st Derby City One Pocket Event
$8,000 2nd Derby City Classic 9-Ball Division
$20,000 1st Derby City Classic Master of the Table
$3,500 9th World 8-Ball Championship
$600 17th Masters 10-Ball Championship
$4,000 3rd Pro Player Championship
$150 5th Mezz Pro Am Tour Stop
$6,000 1st Rumrunner Open Barbox Event
$2,500 17th World 10-Ball Championship
$15,000 1st US Open 10-Ball Championship
$1,200 17th China Open Men's Division
$6,000 5th World 9-Ball Championship
$450 4th US Amateur Open 9-Ball
$700 3rd US Amateur Open 10-Ball
$10,000 1st Seminole Pro Tour Stop
$17,000 1st Steve Mizerak Championship
$2,000 9th World Pool Masters
$250 7th Challenge du St. Laurent
$11,000 2nd Guiness World Series of Pool
$2,000 17th US Open 9-Ball Championship
$8,000 1st Turning Stone Classic XVIII
$20,000 1st 2011 Pool Ocho Open
$7,500 2nd Mosconi Cup
$3,600 5th All Japan Championship Men's Division

Ship it!
 
The Chinchilla said:
But, the question would be, which one was better at catching frisbees, or some other type of competition. I'm sure youd have an answer then :)
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Each one was a champion in their own right. Believe me, one was not better than the other. At the time, no other dog could fit in their paw prints in my eyes.

These who's-the-best threads come and go on this forum all the time. Everybody from the Midwest believes, as an example, Dave Matlock is the best bar player in the world, bar none. Then there's a few folks in California who may disagree, stating Keith McCready is the best bar player in the world, bar none. The younger folk, who've never seen Dave or Keith in their prime, will vehemently disagree, stating Shane Van Boening is the best bar box player of all time.

Well, thanks to video technology, some folks get to see Shane play today. When Dave and Keith were hitting 'em, there was not much available to showcase their prowess on a field of green.

The *best* is based on regions of the country and age. In sum, every pool player has their streak of greatness, some longer than others. Shane is in the peak of his career today, so he is a star in the eyes of many. There's nothing wrong with that.

Comparing Efren of the '90s and Shane of 2012 is like saying my Lady is better than my Sammy Boy or vice versa. Is it possible that they are both great dogs? Is it possible that Efren and Shane are both great players? Efren may spank Shane one day, if they were both to play in their primes, and Shane might barbecue Efren the next day. It doesn't mean one is better than the other. They are both world-class players and always will be.:wink:
 
predator said:
I will disagree with most here.
If Efren of 20 or 25 years ago is indeed better than Shane of year 2012, that would mean that there was no progress in quality of pool game. None what so ever.
And that would also mean that future top guys from year 2032. for example might not get any better than current top guys like Darren, Shane, or top guys from 25 years ago. Have we reached the human limit? Already? How believable is that?

I don't know what is it with pool fans, but most think that peak performance of Efren is some kind of pool perfection and that nothing can top that, ever...am I close? My opinion is, no matter how good one gets, there's always room for improvement.

There is a constant progress in every single sport, physical types, non physical types, other cue games...you name it. Is pool some kind of exception? I don't think so.

I like both players very much, but I'm no fanboy of either. Shane is better, no question.
Click to expand...

I agree that things are constantly changing in sports, but I don't think it has much to do with the skill of the participants. Equipment advancements have had a dramatic impact on many sports; golf clubs have become so forgiving that even a golf cripple like myself can sometimes get around in under 90.

Regarding pool, it seems to me that a case could be made that the average skill level of the participants has actually regressed since the days when 14.1 was the championship game. All the years of playing 9-ball and the acceptance of barboxes as practical equipment for professional caliber tournaments has to have taken a toll.

It's impossible to even do a good comparison. We have plenty of thoroughbred horses out there today, but we have bridled them back to a trot by playing easy games like 9-ball on tables with brand new Simonis, where even a 4.5" pocket can play like a bucket. Even if today's best are better than yesterday's, we'll never know it because they've stopped playing the difficult games that required serious depth and breadth of skill.

Aaron
 
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