Efren's Stroke Comment - BD Oct 2007

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DrCue'sProtege

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
One of the many things I do to try and improve is when I go and eat at the Gasthof, the amish restaurant down the road, I usually take 1-2 Billiard's Digest or Pool & Billiard Magazines to read whilst I eat. Today I ran across this comment by Efren in the October 2007 issue of Billiards Digest. Thought it might be appropriate since the subject of the "Stroke" is talked about at length on this forum.

Efren's comment:

"I came up with my own stroke style. I know its awkward, but you cant underestimate a stroke just because it is ugly"

Words to live - and stroke - by.

r/DCP
 
DrCue'sProtege said:
One of the many things I do to try and improve is when I go and eat at the Gasthof, the amish restaurant down the road, I usually take 1-2 Billiard's Digest or Pool & Billiard Magazines to read whilst I eat. Today I ran across this comment by Efren in the October 2007 issue of Billiards Digest. Thought it might be appropriate since the subject of the "Stroke" is talked about at length on this forum.

Efren's comment:

"I came up with my own stroke style. I know its awkward, but you cant underestimate a stroke just because it is ugly"

Words to live - and stroke - by.

r/DCP
Click to expand...


Wonder how Efren would do with the Digicue thingamabobie.

Lou Figueroa
 
DrCue'sProtege said:
One of the many things I do to try and improve is when I go and eat at the Gasthof, the amish restaurant down the road, I usually take 1-2 Billiard's Digest or Pool & Billiard Magazines to read whilst I eat. Today I ran across this comment by Efren in the October 2007 issue of Billiards Digest. Thought it might be appropriate since the subject of the "Stroke" is talked about at length on this forum.

Efren's comment:

"I came up with my own stroke style. I know its awkward, but you cant underestimate a stroke just because it is ugly"

Words to live - and stroke - by.

r/DCP
Click to expand...

You can't underestimate the folly of using Efren's quote as an excuse to keep an ugly stroke that really does not work. ;)
 
Efren must be thinking of his 1980's stroke.
His stroke now is pretty.
https://youtu.be/8DYDMMw5TtE?t=10
Who among you would not want that stroke ?

He lost that ugly bicycle a long time ago. That was when he was playing on wet table most of the time.
Simonis cloth and pristine conditions got rid of the bicycle stroke.
 
JoeyInCali said:
Efren must be thinking of his 1980's stroke.
His stroke now is pretty.
https://youtu.be/8DYDMMw5TtE?t=10
Who among you would not want that stroke ?
He lost that ugly bicycle a long time ago. That was when he was playing on wet table most of the time.
Simonis cloth and pristine conditions got rid of the bicycle stroke.
Click to expand...
I'd bet money that if the face of the player in the video was hidden and nobody knew who it was, the following would've happened.....................
One of the "expert" instructors would've reacted..."oh horror of horrors, that guy dropped his elbow...he won't ever be a top flight player doing that. And also at the end of his stroking he actually sweeps his cue to the side a little...oh horrors. He needs to see me for lessons". (or some such stuff along those lines). ;)
:thumbup:
 
If you think of some of the all time greats of this game, how many of them were self taught and had their own "awkward" or "weird" strokes. Hopkins with how he punches, Efren with his stroke, Busti with his swinging, Archer with his break where you could actually see his cue come a foot thru his bridge on the other side, Earl with every gadget known to mankind, and some we didn't know existed. Not to be mixed in with the greats, but another stroke that works for him...how many players would you ever teach to shoot with a stroke how Mike Davis plays? Or Tommy Kennedy? Even with some of the most fundamentally sound players today you see them constantly tweaking what they do. How many different strokes have we seen SVB have in the past decade? Everyone's stroke is a little different, but in reality I think it has more to do with knowing what you can do or produce with the stroke you have.
 
Low500 said:
I'd bet money that if the face of the player in the video was hidden and nobody knew who it was, the following would've happened.....................
One of the "expert" instructors would've reacted..."oh horror of horrors, that guy dropped his elbow...he won't ever be a top flight player doing that. And also at the end of his stroking he actually sweeps his cue to the side a little...oh horrors. He needs to see me for lessons". (or some such stuff along those lines). ;)
:thumbup:
Click to expand...

Totally agree here Low. TOTALLY!
 
lfigueroa said:
Wonder how Efren would do with the Digicue thingamabobie.

Lou Figueroa
Click to expand...

Tried it at the expo. It really wasnt hard to change your stroke and punch one in with force on the hardest setting and not make it vibrate. I imagine most players and pros it would vibrate on it's easiest setting with their normal strokes. While I think the device is good for here and there use, you really have to change your normal stroke to get it to not vibrate and I think that is more of a detriment for an already established stroke. I'm defintely not saying you are fine with the Allen Hopkins stroke, but I think some "anomalies" in a stroke may benefit more on certain shots rather then it always being perfectly straight.

However... see my disclaimer, what the hell do I know.
 
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JoeyInCali said:
Efren must be thinking of his 1980's stroke.
His stroke now is pretty.
https://youtu.be/8DYDMMw5TtE?t=10
Who among you would not want that stroke ?

He lost that ugly bicycle a long time ago. That was when he was playing on wet table most of the time.
Simonis cloth and pristine conditions got rid of the bicycle stroke.
Click to expand...

His head comes up on the delivery... most instructors would frown on something like that. Just goes to show, what works for some doesn't necessarily work for others.

No pause at all in his back swing either.
 
Low500 said:
I'd bet money that if the face of the player in the video was hidden and nobody knew who it was, the following would've happened.....................
One of the "expert" instructors would've reacted..."oh horror of horrors, that guy dropped his elbow...he won't ever be a top flight player doing that. And also at the end of his stroking he actually sweeps his cue to the side a little...oh horrors. He needs to see me for lessons". (or some such stuff along those lines). ;)
:thumbup:
Click to expand...

Give Efren a couple days with Scott Lee and he'll be making balls in no time. :) :) :)





Scott Lee, that is.
 
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Jonbouy said:
Always more than one way to skin a cat.
Click to expand...

The issue is that while you can have different strokes and approaches to aming, etc... you will never know if what you are doing is potentially holding you back. Say you get to be an A player shooting one way. What is pausing a bit more or moving your head 1/2 inch or trying a tighter grip would have gotten you to A+?

My son plays with a pretty bad stance, his cue is way inside his elbow and his shoulder and fore-arm are pointing like 30 digrees away from the cue, a bit like Dennis O does, he also tilts his head to the side quite a bit. He is now a good B player, but misses seeming easy shots that would allow him to string multiple racks as he runs out 6-7-8 balls in 9 ball often, then misses the last couple, or misses an easy shot early in the run.

Without a dozen or more things to try and change, maybe for a year, you won't know how well he "could" be if only he, or anyone, had a different stroke.
 
Low500 said:
I'd bet money that if the face of the player in the video was hidden and nobody knew who it was, the following would've happened.....................
One of the "expert" instructors would've reacted..."oh horror of horrors, that guy dropped his elbow...he won't ever be a top flight player doing that. And also at the end of his stroking he actually sweeps his cue to the side a little...oh horrors. He needs to see me for lessons". (or some such stuff along those lines). ;)
:thumbup:
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Sorry, but that is just an ignorant statement and a knock on instruction. Are you aware that Efren's stroke has become much more orthodox over the years?

Are you aware that a number of pros have sought out the top instructors for help with their stroke?
 
Neil said:
Sorry, but that is just an ignorant statement and a knock on instruction. Are you aware that Efren's stroke has become much more orthodox over the years?
Are you aware that a number of pros have sought out the top instructors for help with their stroke?
Click to expand...
Okay, so it's an ignorant statement.
I'm not all that smart anyway......................but I understand human nature. Especially when there's money to be made from teaching the unwary.
Efren did pretty good with his stroke before it "became much more orthodox over the years". I'd settle for the results of some of that stroke he had before it "became much more orthodox over the years". I bet you would too.
I'd like to know, just for my enlightenment, which instructor, if any, counseled Efren into a much more orthodox stroke over the years. :wink:
Stay happy.
:thumbup:
 
Low500 said:
Okay, so it's an ignorant statement.
I'm not all that smart anyway......................but I understand human nature. Especially when there's money to be made from teaching the unwary.
Efren did pretty good with his stroke before it "became much more orthodox over the years". I'd settle for the results of some of that stroke he had before it "became much more orthodox over the years". I bet you would too.
I'd like to know, just for my enlightenment, which instructor, if any, counseled Efren into a much more orthodox stroke over the years. :wink:
Stay happy.
:thumbup:
Click to expand...

Efren was so good before he came to America, that he had to quit playing for 5 years for lack of opponents! Can you imagine someone so good they couldn't get action in the Phillipines?:cool: Not only that, but he dominated in Balkline Billiards as well! Now, I'm no Billiards expert, but it's simply mindblowing that someone can play as controlled of a game as Balkline with that kind of stroke!

Playing on Simonis and proper, dry conditions eliminated the need for some of the power, so he changed his stroke up. I don't know if he got instruction or not, but he's such an intelligent player that I'm sure he picked up a lot just from watching others. A player of that caliber cannot trust his stroke to just anyone...

Anyhow, if you watch the old greats, they all have very ideosyncratic styles. This could be because of the lack of instructional material at the time, but I believe that the equipment is a major factor. It is extremely difficult to play well on slow conditions with a snooker stroke. Even the old snooker greats dropped their elbows etc, because the cloth was much slower and they didn't have steel backed cushions or heated slates. Diamond tables have completely changed the way the game is being played, as has Simonis cloth. I think, not necessarily for the better. Sure people pot more accurately now (at least some), but we have lost the unique strokes that were needed to get out when the rack was tough. Now you can go four rails without even touching the ball. Oh, well.
 
Low500 said:
Okay, so it's an ignorant statement.
I'm not all that smart anyway......................but I understand human nature. Especially when there's money to be made from teaching the unwary.
Efren did pretty good with his stroke before it "became much more orthodox over the years". I'd settle for the results of some of that stroke he had before it "became much more orthodox over the years". I bet you would too.
I'd like to know, just for my enlightenment, which instructor, if any, counseled Efren into a much more orthodox stroke over the years. :wink:
Stay happy.
:thumbup:
Click to expand...

Strange that only in pool are instructors scoffed at. Even when tiger Woods was at the peak of his game, he utilized coaches. But, for pool, some think all instructors do is rip people off. Very short-sighted thinking.

I don't know if Efren utilized an instructor or not. But he did change up his stroke. That's obvious. Even at his level of play, he knew it needed something more.

I do know that other pros have sought out instruction. And, at their level, it is almost always going back to the basics. Idiosyncrasies creep in over the years, and they need them fixed.
 
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