Elbow dropping... innocuous or a damnable curse?

[Scott Lee]

MasterClass...Perhaps you should acquaint yourself with the video available online of the Jacksonville Experiment, which was extreme high-speed photograpy of the cuetip hitting the CB. The photography was shot at 4000 frames per second...normal video is 30 frames per second. They used all manner of cues, shafts, and tips. It proved once and for all that you cannot extend dwell time between the tip and CB...at least not enough to make any difference in what happens. You may think you're doing something different, but it's not really happening.

Pool school teaches you these things. Perhaps you could benefit from this information when you are ready.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

 

[GADawg]

I had a short discussion about elbow drop with a Taiwanese pool coach last night. He said that the elbow drop, after contact, is used purposely by many Taiwan players on certain power shots and other shots where they want a long follow through.

He said that, if you are going to do this, it is important during the shot to keep your muscles relaxed , not increase grip pressure and keep the butt of the cue directly below and in line with your forearm and not turn your wrist as you follow through so the cue stays on line.

He didn't really say it but I got the impression that he thought one should not try to learn this until after having a very solid and repeatable pendulum stroke.

 

[MasterClass]

MasterClass...Perhaps you should acquaint yourself with the video available online of the Jacksonville Experiment, which was extreme high-speed photograpy of the cuetip hitting the CB. The photography was shot at 4000 frames per second...normal video is 30 frames per second. They used all manner of cues, shafts, and tips. It proved once and for all that you cannot extend dwell time between the tip and CB...at least not enough to make any difference in what happens. You may think you're doing something different, but it's not really happening.

Pool school teaches you these things. Perhaps you could benefit from this information when you are ready.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

For example.

Shove the guy next to you with the palm of your hand. Does he fly off your palm at the moment of contact?

Or does does your palm feel the lost of the contact only after at the extension of your arm where he truly leaves the contact of your palm?

What the experiment did not consider was perhaps acceleration? The speed of the cue increase from slow at the point of contact to fast pushing through the ball.

Another example to try to hit with the cue ball with centre striking but deviate your push through to the left or the right. you will notice that english will be imparted with the push through. if there is no more contact after the hit on the initial centre striking then where did the english come from?

There are also some material regarding dropping elbow from the snooker point of view on the web that has some concurring theories and some conflicting ones.

I think pool is a game that is more alive and complex then people think. I would like to learn it with an open mind and not adhere strictly to theories and experiments that i cannot completely convince myself with.

 

[charlieb]

For example.

Shove the guy next to you with the palm of your hand. Does he fly off your palm at the moment of contact?

Or does does your palm feel the lost of the contact only after at the extension of your arm where he truly leaves the contact of your palm?

What the experiment did not consider was perhaps acceleration? The speed of the cue increase from slow at the point of contact to fast pushing through the ball.

Another example to try to hit with the cue ball with centre striking but deviate your push through to the left or the right. you will notice that english will be imparted with the push through. if there is no more contact after the hit on the initial centre striking then where did the english come from?

There are also some material regarding dropping elbow from the snooker point of view on the web that has some concurring theories and some conflicting ones.

I think pool is a game that is more alive and complex then people think. I would like to learn it with an open mind and not adhere strictly to theories and experiments that i cannot completely convince myself with.

4000 frames per second and you can't believe your eyes? Don't fight it as it is what it is.

 

[Flex]

Well it is an option, but one that few people are willing to accept. If you have found yourself in a horrible starting position (with little to no angle), you may have to just accept that you will end up with a similarly bad position upon completion.

Like I said in an earlier post, I shoot the kind of shot you are referring to with a completely different approach than you describe. I don't go for perfect position on the next shot, I focus on cinching the tough shot and settling for whatever keeps me at the table. There are a dozen ways to avoid a scratch and side spin is not the only way.

I witness so few players willing to take their foot off the gas. They think they can always make the shot and get shape from any old starting position. This is just not realistic and trying for too much usually leaves them with nothing in the end.

I know this topic is slightly unrelated, but other than a fast break shot, I just don't see the need for an elbow drop. It's usually a compensation for a problem elsewhere in the stroke, in my opinion of course.

That's fine if you are satisfied with putting less juice on the cue ball than is necessary to move it around the table in the situation I described. However, I make this shot routinely, and do it the way it was described. I had a teaching pro show me how to pull this off. It's a standard practice shot for me, and is one of the 27 shots on Kinister's 60 Minute Workout. When there is more of an angle on the ball, it's obviously easier. I work on making the shot with the toughest layout. The only real problem occurs on tables with double or triple shims and very slow cloth. Other than those situations, the stroke necessary to make the shot and move the cue ball isn't all that tough; actually is can be a finesse shot.

I know another teaching pro who advocates both the BCA method, or the SPF method, as well as the stroke I'm referring to. He says they both need to be learned.

Is that controversial? Perhaps, but I manage to get that cue ball around without too much trouble, at least most of the time.

By the way, oftentimes I'm not attempting to achieve perfect position after this shot, but if I'm able to get somewhere downtable I'll have a decent chance of staying at the table. Accepting the mediocre results that come from not playing this shot correctly are not always necessary.

Thanks for your ideas in any case.

Flex

 

[arsenius]

I'll just chime in with my $.02 here, based on things I have been working on for the last few months in my game.

The first thing, which I have never seen mentioned anywhere else, was taught to me by a Korean pro Pool, Snooker, and English Billiards player. He has the most beautiful mechanics of anyone I've ever seen. He told me that I should practice dropping my elbow. The reason for this was to ensure that it dropped through straight. The reasoning was that it helped ensure everything was lined up correctly. If you drop your elbow and it moves to the right or left, the cue tip will move also. He wasn't having me drop an inch or two, but was having me drop my elbow as far as it could go, so that I followed past the cue ball for almost a full diamond length. This was not something to be used during a game, but for practicing my stroke.

I found that doing this really helped on shots where I had to use a long bridge. Before I had sometimes twisted right or left, but working on dropping my elbow cleanly really helped fix this problem.

The second thing I have learned in the last few months, is that not dropping your elbow (on most shots) is great. But at least for me, it's not always possible. I think it requires superior technique to remove the need to drop your elbow. On the days that I can feel my technique is really good, my elbow doesn't drop naturally. However, if I'm having trouble lining up my body in a way that feels correct, my elbow automatically drops more. So for me, not dropping my elbow is a case of "association does not indicate causation."

"Don't drop your elbow" is, to me, somewhat like the advice I heard from the BCA basics video by Jerry Brieseth. He said something like "A characteristic of a good stroke is that the tip drops at the end of the stroke." "Oh, great! That's easy!" I thought. Then I started pulling my hand up to the ceiling at the end of every shot to make the tip drop!!!!!!!!!!!! This is when I first started playing and didn't know any better. Obviously that's not what Jerry meant! Finding out why your elbow is dropping is the key, imho.

 

[Snapshot9]

Stroking

Unnecessary movement in the stroke when playing = insecurity of some form, whether emotional or mechanical.

Bad form = Lack of training, lack of knowledge, leads to bad stroke mechanics which leads to misses on particular types of shots.

How in the world do you think Road players size up their potential matches?
and know that a player will be weak in certain areas?

 

[DrCue'sProtege]

well, ok, i am going to chime in here..........

from the tapes i have been watching lately of both men and women i see some that have an absolute rigid elbow. Allison and Romford Slim appear to be that way. snooker training, perhaps?

but..........most of the others, from Strickland to Immonen to Varner, all have some elbow movement. very little, but some.

not sure what all this means, but i am going to continue with the process i am working on now and see where it takes me. its just hard for me to see if i am staying still with the elbow, or dropping it ever so slightly.

DCP

p.s. granted, it could just be on the tapes i watched, and not something they do all the time. i might have just seen them on a day when they did it.

 

[elite1206]

I was taught by a BCA certified coach to drop my elbow, however he emphasized on how much I should drop my elbow when executing my shots. Dropping elbow is a way to generate power and spin using your stroke instead of muscle power. He quoted me an example with regards to golf. If order to generate power, golfers go for maximum backswing and maximum follow through.

And this dropping of the elbow works wonder for me, it gave me a wider access to different strokes required for dfferent shots.

Of cause this dropping of the elbow must be accompanied by the ability to drop it straight. And once you learn how to drop your elbow when executing your shots, you should find that you can move the cueball with much better control as compared to when you lock your elbow.

 

[Scott Lee]

"Don't drop your elbow" is, to me, somewhat like the advice I heard from the BCA basics video by Jerry Brieseth. He said something like "A characteristic of a good stroke is that the tip drops at the end of the stroke." "Oh, great! That's easy!" I thought. Then I started pulling my hand up to the ceiling at the end of every shot to make the tip drop!!!!!!!!!!!! This is when I first started playing and didn't know any better. Obviously that's not what Jerry meant! Finding out why your elbow is dropping is the key, imho.

Jerry advocates NO elbow drop... The important thing about the tip at the end of the stroke, is that it is level or pointing down, still pointed at the target (OB), and finishes X" past where the CB was sitting (this 'natural finish' will vary from player to player).

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

 

[Scott Lee]

I was taught by a BCA certified coach to drop my elbow, however he emphasized on how much I should drop my elbow when executing my shots. Dropping elbow is a way to generate power and spin using your stroke instead of muscle power. He quoted me an example with regards to golf. If order to generate power, golfers go for maximum backswing and maximum follow through.

And this dropping of the elbow works wonder for me, it gave me a wider access to different strokes required for dfferent shots.

Of cause this dropping of the elbow must be accompanied by the ability to drop it straight. And once you learn how to drop your elbow when executing your shots, you should find that you can move the cueball with much better control as compared to when you lock your elbow.

WOW! They don't know what they don't know...obviously even some 'BCA Certified coaches'! More muscle movement can only mean more potential for error.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

 

[JoeyInCali]

well, ok, i am going to chime in here..........

from the tapes i have been watching lately of both men and women i see some that have an absolute rigid elbow. Allison and Romford Slim appear to be that way. snooker training, perhaps?

but..........most of the others, from Strickland to Immonen to Varner, all have some elbow movement. very little, but some.

not sure what all this means, but i am going to continue with the process i am working on now and see where it takes me. its just hard for me to see if i am staying still with the elbow, or dropping it ever so slightly.

DCP

p.s. granted, it could just be on the tapes i watched, and not something they do all the time. i might have just seen them on a day when they did it.

Imo the pros who drop their elbows have been doing since they were kids.
They were too short to deliver a good stroke w/out pistoning the cue.
Btw, I've been thru this before many times.
I don't believe dropping your elbow creates more cueball action. In fact it kills it. Think about it. You cannot accelerate thru the cueball faster if you drop your elbow.
I practiced shooting spot shots with the cueball not hitting the end rail. I can do it w/out dropping the elbow.
I think the only shot I drop my elbow is on kill shots. Somehow I can't do it with a pendulum stroke and follow.

 

[Flex]

Unnecessary movement in the stroke when playing = insecurity of some form, whether emotional or mechanical.

Bad form = Lack of training, lack of knowledge, leads to bad stroke mechanics which leads to misses on particular types of shots.

How in the world do you think Road players size up their potential matches? and know that a player will be weak in certain areas?

Aha... so, to disguise one's stroke and get the drop on a roadie, introduce some quirks in the stroke? And then at the right moment, whup it on 'em?

Flex

 

[Flex]

Jerry advocates NO elbow drop... The important thing about the tip at the end of the stroke, is that it is level or pointing down, still pointed at the target (OB), and finishes X" past where the CB was sitting (this 'natural finish' will vary from player to player).

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

This is very interesting.

When Mark Wilson made very specific suggestions and asked me to give them a week to ten days to kick in, one of the things he suggested was that I wanted my tip to finish not just two inches in front of where the cue ball had been, but five inches in front of it. To accomplish this, he suggested I move my stroking hand backward about two - three inches, so my forearm would be perpendicular to the cue at the moment the tip contacts the cue ball. The natural finish of the stroke would thus end about five inches in front of where the cue ball originally lay, with my stroking hand coming up and contacting my chest. These changes have really helped my consistency in stroking, and my game has improved, and everything is much more fun now. Plus, I've noticed how psychologically satisfying it is when taking a full stroke to have everything stay on line. There's a feeling when the cue takes it's full extension on these strokes that's awesome.

When you say the "natural finish" will vary from player to player, are you suggesting that what Mark recommended for me might be substantially different for another player of similar height, and so on? I'm about 5'11" and wear shirts with a 34 inch arm length.

Flex

 

[Flex]

Imo the pros who drop their elbows have been doing since they were kids.
They were too short to deliver a good stroke w/out pistoning the cue.
Btw, I've been thru this before many times.
I don't believe dropping your elbow creates more cueball action. In fact it kills it. Think about it. You cannot accelerate thru the cueball faster if you drop your elbow.
I practiced shooting spot shots with the cueball not hitting the end rail. I can do it w/out dropping the elbow.
I think the only shot I drop my elbow is on kill shots. Somehow I can't do it with a pendulum stroke and follow.

So how do you stroke those kill shots?

Flex

 

[Jal]

For example.

Shove the guy next to you with the palm of your hand. Does he fly off your palm at the moment of contact?

Or does does your palm feel the lost of the contact only after at the extension of your arm where he truly leaves the contact of your palm.

Yes, you're right that you not only have to push on the guy, but you have to push on him for a period time. But if you push for 1/1000'th second with say, 10 lbs of force, he's going nowhere (10 lbs is roughly the average force you apply to the cue on a fast shot). Nor is a cueball. As Scott said, that 1/1000'th second is not enough time to make any significant difference in its speed or spin. You might be able to generate a couple of percentage points increase, but that's about it.

What the experiment did not consider was perhaps acceleration? The speed of the cue increase from slow at the point of contact to fast pushing through the ball.

The force that develops between the stick and the ball during the collision is typically several hundreds of pounds, unless hit very slow. The stick is being pushed back with this much force, causing it to slow down. You would have to be superman to overcome this and make it actually accelerate forward during impact. As just mentioned, you're usually applying something like 10 lbs or less on average during a stroke, with a peak of maybe 15-20 lbs on a very fast shot. The hundreds of pounds at the other end always wins.

As Scott also iindicated, dropping your elbow after impact cannot affect the cueball in any way, unless you acheive a double hit. A good follow through is an indication that you didn't start reining the stick in prematurely, forcing it to slow down before impact.

Another example to try to hit with the cue ball with centre striking but deviate your push through to the left or the right. you will notice that english will be imparted with the push through. if there is no more contact after the hit on the initial centre striking then where did the english come from?

You would have to have amazing timing to start the impact with centerball and no sideways movement of the tip, then force it sideways during the rest of contact. What you're observing is sideways movement begun well before impact. Again, that 1/1000'th of a second would not be enough time to move the tip sideways for any useful amount.

I think pool is a game that is more alive and complex then people think. I would like to learn it with an open mind and not adhere strictly to theories and experiments that i cannot completely convince myself with.

Who would have thought that poking a ball with a stick could be so involved? But as far as getting speed and spin on the cueball, the physics is actually simpler than many believe it is. It's all (essentially all) determined by the cue's speed before impact. What you do during and after has no practical consequence.

Jim

 

[elite1206]

Who would have thought that poking a ball with a stick could be so involved? But as far as getting speed and spin on the cueball, the physics is actually simpler than many believe it is. It's all (essentially all) determined by the cue's speed before impact. What you do during and after has no practical consequence.
Jim

If what you do during and after the impact has no practical consequence, then I do not understand the invention of chalk to create friction on the cueball in order to generate spin. I believe the chalk helps to generate more spin when your cuetip is in contact with your cueball due to friction, resulting in longer contact time between the cuetip and the cueball, hence generating more spin. Hence I do believe what you do during and after the impact has consequence how much spin is imparted to the cueball.

Correct me if I am wrong.

 

[Jal]

If what you do during and after the impact has no practical consequence, then I do not understand the invention of chalk to create friction on the cueball in order to generate spin. I believe the chalk helps to generate more spin when your cuetip is in contact with your cueball due to friction, resulting in longer contact time between the cuetip and the cueball, hence generating more spin. Hence I do believe what you do during and after the impact has consequence how much spin is imparted to the cueball.

Correct me if I am wrong.

Well, not to be a smart***, but you do chalk up before the shot, don't you? I mean I see no difference, semantics-wise, between this and everything else you do beforehand, such as propelling the cue forward. All occur prior to impact, no?

There is a psycho-motor aspect to this though. What you plan on doing after impact can very well affect what happens before it. If you try to follow through only 1/2", you'll likely slow the cue down well before the collision. But it's the actual deceleration before impact that affects the speed and spin on the cueball, not the 1/2" follow through.

I could be wrong, but I don't think there is any reason to believe that friction prolongs the contact period. In fact, I would think that when you miscue, the tip stays on the ball longer. The reason is that the direction of the force on the tip/stick is no longer pointing straight down the shaft, but at a considerable angle to it. This makes for a softer collision since the cue will now want to flex more. And softer collisions typically result in longer contact times. Just a guess.

Jim

 

[Bob Jewett]

For example.

Shove the guy next to you with the palm of your hand. Does he fly off your palm at the moment of contact?

Or does does your palm feel the lost of the contact only after at the extension of your arm where he truly leaves the contact of your palm?

What the experiment did not consider was perhaps acceleration? The speed of the cue increase from slow at the point of contact to fast pushing through the ball. ...

I was one of the people involved in the experiment. A few minor corrections to what Scott said. The camera we had took video at up to 12,000 frames per second, although the view was more restricted at higher speeds. Since the tip is on the ball for about 1 to 2 thousandths of a second, we could see first contact, some tip compression, the ball starting to move, more tip compression, the ball moving faster, maximum compression with the ball and tip moving at the same speed, tip expansion with the ball moving faster than the stick, and eventually the tip separating from the ball.

The time of tip-to-ball contact were increased in two ways. One of the experimenters, Hans de Jager, who set a European scoring record for artistic billiards, brought a special soft tip. That tip had approximately double the contact time. The second way to increase contact time is to hit the ball off-center. This reason for this effect is fairly obvious: the ball does not accelerate away from the tip as well when struck off-center since much of the transferred energy is going into spin rather than linear motion. At the same time, the stick is not slowing down as much.

As for acceleration, at the start of the experiments de Jager was convinced, as you seem to be, that one must be accelerating for best stroke. The video and in particular the analysis of the speed-time profile of his best "accelerating" stroke convinced him otherwise.

If you would like to know more about the experiment and the analyses, some articles from Billiards Digest are on the www.sfbilliards.com web site. The reason why acceleration at the instant of impact cannot much affect the contact time is explained there.

 

[td873]

Allison and Romford Slim appear to be that way. snooker training, perhaps?

For the record, IIRC, Allison is also a student of RandyG = spf.

-td