Elbow dropping... innocuous or a damnable curse?

Elbow dropping... innocuous or a damnable curse?


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perhaps another consideration is the "Quarter Vs. Water Bottle/Cup Of Coffee" consideration.

some have said you need to keep the elbow level to the point where a bottle of water or cup of coffee wont spill. others argue that if a coin (quarter) would stay on the elbow that the elbow drop is negligible, and nothing to worry about.

i think the other day before Scott Lee visited me i would probably spill coffee and water and be picking up loose change off my floor. now, however, i am at least keeping the coin on my elbow.

will i ever keep the coffee/water on my elbow? dunno, but thats sure going to be a difficult challenge for me.

DCP
 
Jasmin

I have been looking at men's and women's stance and stroke for months now. Name a player, Earl, Allison, anyone that gets much TV time and none use a perfect pendulum stroke all of the time. As a matter of fact, when you look at the pictures in the books and watch the instructor videos you will note that most if not all instructors don't practice what they preach!

The young lady, Jasmin O, that is playing so well has the closest thing I have seen to a perfect stance and stroke. OF course she has been playing and had a coach since preschool. this seems to indicate that the stance and stroke are anything but simple.

The pendulum stroke with minimal elbow movement is effective. However the idea that it is physically a simple stroke to execute is a myth. Without considering the muscles used to create the stance, the pendulum stroke still relies on muscles in the neck, shoulder, back, side, upper arm, forearm, wrist, and fingers. It uses all of the muscles that any other stroke uses, it just uses some of them in different ways.

Are our muscles better suited to work together to maintain movement in a straight line or are they better suited to immobilize our upper arm and have free motion in our lower arm, movement actually created by the muscles in our upper arm? My contention is that we use coordinated movement of the complete arm constantly in our daily lives, we attempt to hold our upper arm stationary while in a somewhat awkward position while moving fluidly beneath it only when shooting pool.

Hu



cuekev said:
Easy Scott! I think you misinterpreted my post. I am not disagreeing with you. I am saying that it works better when you raise your head a little off the cue. Yes Randy mentioned that to me at PS and it was very good advice. It does not work as well when you have your chin on the cue. I therefore am shooting with my head and shoulder higher. I am glad I went to Pool School and continue to incorporate the methods that you and Randy taught. Little by little it is all coming together. I now hold the cue back further so that my lower arm is perpendicular to the cue. That advice came from you and I thank you again.

Not to be a PITA but I Youtubed Tony Robles to check his form. He also drops his elbow. I am just looking for a pro that has almost no elbow drop.

Thanks again,
 
ShootingArts The pendulum stroke with minimal elbow movement is effective. However the idea that it is physically a simple stroke to execute is a myth. Without considering the muscles used to create the stance said:
Hu...I would have to disagree with your idea that it is a myth. I believe it to be a VERY easy and simple way of accurately and repeatedly delivering the cuestick. It requires no strength, no contorted body positions, and no perfect timing (like the elbow drop would requre). The pendulum swing employs one set of muscles to complete...the biceps (although the wrist and grip hand come into play during the natural finish). The swing can be done standing upright, and not even holding a cue. In fact, that is how I teach it to many people who are not familiar with the movement. It is neither an awkward, nor a non-fluid movement of your arm...only "different" for many players, at first. As Randyg said, any movement of the cue can be practiced until the player may be successful with it. That doesn't mean it is the most efficient method, nor does it mean that something like an elbow drop is better. As far as reality goes, the elbow drop does nothing to alter the effect on the CB (since the dwell time is 1-2 thousandth's of a second). Between the two of us, we have successfully taught this simple procedure to perhaps 10,000 students over the years.

It is what it is...but I am done arguing about it. Many people set in their ways simply cannot reason with simplicity (it brings to mind the common misconception of "if it's THAT easy, it can't possibly work"). If you like it...use it. If you don't...do something else!

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
 
I like the pendulum stroke and following thru to your home position. Maybe a good way to see how effective the methods taught in PS are would be to try to teach yourself to shoot opposite handed. I think you will find much quicker results with the pendulum stroke and SPF than with anything else. JMHO
 
ShootingArts said:
The pendulum stroke with minimal elbow movement is effective. However the idea that it is physically a simple stroke to execute is a myth. Without considering the muscles used to create the stance, the pendulum stroke still relies on muscles in the neck, shoulder, back, side, upper arm, forearm, wrist, and fingers. It uses all of the muscles that any other stroke uses, it just uses some of them in different ways.

Are our muscles better suited to work together to maintain movement in a straight line or are they better suited to immobilize our upper arm and have free motion in our lower arm, movement actually created by the muscles in our upper arm? My contention is that we use coordinated movement of the complete arm constantly in our daily lives, we attempt to hold our upper arm stationary while in a somewhat awkward position while moving fluidly beneath it only when shooting pool.

Hu

I agree with this thought, and, more generally, I have problems with the whole argument that "simpler is better". At best, the idea that less moving parts means less can go wrong is a valid principle in, say, mechanical engineering or robotics, but the human body is nothing like a mechanical robot. It doesn't have joint motors, it has contracting muscles. And the way the brain communicates with the muscles is nothing like the way a robot communicates with its motors.

If the experienced instructors here and elsewhere claim that they have best success teaching the pendulum stroke, I believe that. But I don't find theoretical/scientific arguments in favor of the pendulum stroke pursuasive.

I also don't agree that what gets a beginner to C-speed quickest, or even what gets a C player to an A player quickest is necessarily the best way to perform the stroke. Maybe it is, but I don't think that there is enough evidence to draw that conclusion. Particularly given the fact that many of the world's top players do not have a pendulum stroke. In order to override this empirical evidence on theoretical grounds (e.g. the argument that the "best" method on paper is superior to the method which is actually used by the best players in the world), IMHO, you need a stronger theoretical argument then "simpler is better". Again, maybe most pros are indeed doing it wrong, but I'm certainly not going to believe that based on stick-figure diagrams and analogies between the human body and a mechanical pendulum.

For starters, counting the number of moving joints is an *extremely* poor way of judging the complexity of a human body motion, for obvious reasons (e.g., try closing just your ring finger rather than all four). Counting the number of muscles that contract is equally flawed.

Moreover, as quoted above, keeping your elbow fixed while your forearm moves is neither natural nor easy, since the acceleration of the forearm during the backswing induces a force which must be counterbalanced. Keeping the elbow still requires additional muscular effort which must be timed to coincide with these induced forces. The idea that "not moving" is "simple" is an illusion. If your upper arm was bolted in place, the argument that the pendulum is "simpler" would be more reasonable, but your arm is being kept still by intention and not by default, and in this sense, keeping the elbow fixed requires extra muscular effort which is peripheral to the general objective of stroking the cue. Maybe this extra effort is a good thing, but if so, it's not because "simpler is better".

There are many natural examples of useful auxiliary body movements--e.g. swinging your arms while walking. Walking robots don't generally have swinging arms, but that's because robot walking is very primitive, and robots have nothing comparable to the innate sense of balance and coordination of a human.

I have no idea what "correct" technique is. If I were to guess, I'd say probably some elbow drop is either beneficial or at least OK, and not worrying about whether the elbow drops is probably best, since I don't see any reason to avoid it. But I could easily be wrong, and more importantly, I think theoretical arguments along these lines should be met with some skepticism. I think there are a lot of good ideas here, both in favor and against the pendulum, but in the end, there's just not enough evidence to really draw a confident conclusion.
 
ineedaspot said:
... more generally, I have problems with the whole argument that "simpler is better". ...
Well, how about this argument for something like a pendulum. We can call it the "anti-Bustamante" argument. The player has to choose how much follow or draw to put on the cue ball. One way to do that is to put the tip near where it is going to hit on cue ball, and then use a stroke that returns the cue tip to that spot on the power stroke. One stroke that accomplishes that is the pure pendulum stroke. Another is the piston stroke of Loree Jon and Jeremy Jones and several top snooker players. Another is what I call the "natural" stroke in which the upper arm drops by about its own thickness after tip-to-ball contact on power shots. The important part is the timing of the drop, but I think it is natural for it to occur after the hit.
 
Bob Jewett said:
Well, how about this argument for something like a pendulum. We can call it the "anti-Bustamante" argument. The player has to choose how much follow or draw to put on the cue ball. One way to do that is to put the tip near where it is going to hit on cue ball, and then use a stroke that returns the cue tip to that spot on the power stroke. One stroke that accomplishes that is the pure pendulum stroke. Another is the piston stroke of Loree Jon and Jeremy Jones and several top snooker players. Another is what I call the "natural" stroke in which the upper arm drops by about its own thickness after tip-to-ball contact on power shots. The important part is the timing of the drop, but I think it is natural for it to occur after the hit.

I like this way of explaining it. After all, there is momentum of the swinging forearm, along with the weight of the cue, to contend with.

Having just watched a video of Tony Robles vs Santos Sambajon, there's no doubt that Robles' elbow drops a bit at the end of his stroke. Maybe less than his arm's thickness, maybe not, but it moves a bit. That degree of movement looks very natural to me.

If that's the "no elbow dropping" that we're discussing, I'm for it. But it really is then a matter of degree, not whether it moves at all.

Flex
 
Thanks!

ineedaspot said:
I have no idea what "correct" technique is. If I were to guess, I'd say probably some elbow drop is either beneficial or at least OK, and not worrying about whether the elbow drops is probably best, since I don't see any reason to avoid it. But I could easily be wrong, and more importantly, I think theoretical arguments along these lines should be met with some skepticism. I think there are a lot of good ideas here, both in favor and against the pendulum, but in the end, there's just not enough evidence to really draw a confident conclusion.


I cut most of your post just to save space. I just typed much the same thing that your post covered in a rough draft that I was trying to smooth out when you posted. When discussing the human body, body motion, and interactions, what seems simple at first glance can be very deceptive. You said that far better than I could.

I think we need to work backwards from our objective to the easiest way to achieve that goal consistently. I believe that the closer we come to a natural motion the more consistent we will be. This isn't advocating massive shoulder movement but I have to say that I believe a slight shoulder movement is at least as easy to regulate as the complex wrist and finger movements required to keep the cue stick moving in a straight line for any period of time when the basic motion we are applying to the cue butt is an arc using the pendulum stroke.

When looking back on another similar activity, speed shooting with a pistol, the key was balance between body parts rather than trying to isolate any one body part. Nothing good happened when I was too rigid anywhere. It seems that I play my best pool when I do the same, try to achieve balance.

Hu
 
Bob Jewett said:
Well, how about this argument for something like a pendulum. We can call it the "anti-Bustamante" argument. The player has to choose how much follow or draw to put on the cue ball. One way to do that is to put the tip near where it is going to hit on cue ball, and then use a stroke that returns the cue tip to that spot on the power stroke. One stroke that accomplishes that is the pure pendulum stroke. Another is the piston stroke of Loree Jon and Jeremy Jones and several top snooker players. Another is what I call the "natural" stroke in which the upper arm drops by about its own thickness after tip-to-ball contact on power shots. The important part is the timing of the drop, but I think it is natural for it to occur after the hit.

I like this way of explaining it. After all, there is momentum of the swinging forearm, along with the weight of the cue, to contend with.

Having just watched a video of Tony Robles vs Santos Sambajon, there's no doubt that Robles' elbow drops a bit at the end of his stroke. Maybe less than his arm's thickness, maybe not, but it moves a bit. That degree of movement looks very natural to me.

If that's the "no elbow dropping" that we're discussing, I'm for it. But it really is then a matter of degree, not whether it moves or drops at all.

Flex
 
Bob Jewett said:
Well, how about this argument for something like a pendulum. We can call it the "anti-Bustamante" argument. The player has to choose how much follow or draw to put on the cue ball. One way to do that is to put the tip near where it is going to hit on cue ball, and then use a stroke that returns the cue tip to that spot on the power stroke. One stroke that accomplishes that is the pure pendulum stroke. Another is the piston stroke of Loree Jon and Jeremy Jones and several top snooker players. Another is what I call the "natural" stroke in which the upper arm drops by about its own thickness after tip-to-ball contact on power shots. The important part is the timing of the drop, but I think it is natural for it to occur after the hit.

Well, I don't know nearly as much about this topic as you or many others on here, so honestly I'm not sure what I think. I definitely see your argument, and I don't see any advantage of doing the Bustamante thing, but I'm not convinced that it's necessarily all that bad--maybe it's not so hard for the human body to learn to hit exactly the correct spot on the cue ball without lining up with the contact point. I have no idea, really, but I don't see why that possibility should be ruled out--maybe lining up like that is essentially unnecessary.

As far as when the elbow drop occurs, I don't see why the exact time matters,
though I agree with you (I think) that the most important question is what is "natural" as opposed to whether dropping the elbow before contact is mechanically unsound. For the same reason that follow through is important in many different athletic motions, i think that the good or bad effects of elbow drop can kick in even if the elbow doesn't drop until after contact.

Another related question is, when something goes wrong, what is it? Is it that your brain sends the wrong signal to the muscles? If so, what part of your brain? Or is it that the muscles get the right signal but do the wrong thing? If it's your brain, then the exact time of the elbow drop shouldn't matter, since your brain begins preparing for motions before they occur.

But surely I'm oversimplifying here--I don't have any real idea what goes on in your brain between when you decide to do something and when it actually gets done.
 
For Scott, Randy and other instructors

To Scott, Randy and any other instructors:

Could you please take a quick look at this short video of Tony Robles vs Santos Sambajon, and specifically assess whether the degree of elbow movement by Tony constitutes in your opinion an acceptable standard for no elbow dropping?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rOHl604_sG4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ggwICW84S6o At 3:05 in this match, one can see very clearly how much his elbow is dropping.

Thanks so much!

Flex
 
Last edited:
Flex...I watched both video segments. What I saw, from BOTH players, was a repeating stroke, with little or no elbow drop. The segment you mentioned, you'll notice that Tony was stretched out over the table, with a longer than normal bridge. IMO, this was what was responsible for the minor elbow drop you saw...nothing else. What I watched specifically, was how both players' tips finished exactly the same way on every shot...which were hallmarks of a perfect pendulum stroke.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
 
Scott Lee said:
Flex...I watched both video segments. What I saw, from BOTH players, was a repeating stroke, with little or no elbow drop. The segment you mentioned, you'll notice that Tony was stretched out over the table, with a longer than normal bridge. IMO, this was what was responsible for the minor elbow drop you saw...nothing else. What I watched specifically, was how both players' tips finished exactly the same way on every shot...which were hallmarks of a perfect pendulum stroke.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

Thank you, Scott. If Robles' stroke passes your test, I suppose I'm firmly in your camp. Isn't it interesting to see what words mean, in context. For instance, the degree of his elbow drop in that video that I referenced seems to be perfectly natural. I like it.

Thanks again for the help.

Rep to you!

Flex
 
Hey Scott:

How about AZ's opening page covering the $50,000 challenge.

Niels Feijen= Elbow pinned, tip down, still pointed at target. At least one this shot anyway....SPF=randyg
 
Scott Lee said:
Flex...I watched both video segments. What I saw, from BOTH players, was a repeating stroke, with little or no elbow drop. The segment you mentioned, you'll notice that Tony was stretched out over the table, with a longer than normal bridge. IMO, this was what was responsible for the minor elbow drop you saw...nothing else. What I watched specifically, was how both players' tips finished exactly the same way on every shot...which were hallmarks of a perfect pendulum stroke.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

but........"Little or no elbow drop?" Little being the key word here.

i video'd myself last night, and had a slight drop on most shots. so i am going to assume that i am making some progress in mechanics..........:cool:

DCP
 
Hey Scott: Same guy: Hand HOME, nuckles up, air pocket between cue and palm.......SPF=randyg
 
randyg said:
Hey Scott:

How about AZ's opening page covering the $50,000 challenge.

Niels Feijen= Elbow pinned, tip down, still pointed at target. At least one this shot anyway....SPF=randyg

now this is what i have been wondering about. notice Feijen's elbow is not level, but rather pointing upwards.

is this good? bad? normal? just his way of doing things?

DCP
 
DrCue'sProtege said:
now this is what i have been wondering about. notice Feijen's elbow is not level, but rather pointing upwards.

is this good? bad? normal? just his way of doing things?

DCP


Normal for him...randyg
 
words are tough to convey meaning

Flex said:
Thank you, Scott. If Robles' stroke passes your test, I suppose I'm firmly in your camp. Isn't it interesting to see what words mean, in context. For instance, the degree of his elbow drop in that video that I referenced seems to be perfectly natural. I like it.

Thanks again for the help.

Rep to you!

Flex


When the pendulum stroke is described as keeping the elbow motionless, I question a good bit about the mechanics. When Scott says that both players are using a good pendulum stroke then his and Randy's "no drop in the elbow before striking the cue ball" is equal to my "moderate elbow movement".

Thanks for posting the video links. That puts everyone on the same page and clears up some confusion concerning the mechanics for me.

Rep your way too.

Hu
 
It's important to recognize that Robles had the elbow drop due to being stretched out on the shot. Otherwise, I saw no elbow drop in any other shots. Even though you can see his and Santos' elbows on all shots, what you CAN see is that the tip finishes the same place every time...and it's not extended and off the table like a elbow drop produces.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
 
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