English and how it affects the CB and OB

[Slasher]

Not in conjunction with follow and draw yet, JUST side spin. The best way to adjust for side spin is NOT instinct, it is BHE or aim and pivot. Find your cues pivot point, there are other threads on how to do this. Or find a cue or shaft that has a pivot point that is where you like to have your bridge.

I know we are discussing theory here and there are no absolutes, but I absolutely disagree with this advice.

You are breaking a fundamental rule and that being, changing your cue arm and body alignment after you set up. you are removing your references for body/arm position.
You will never achieve consistency with this style.

You should have made your decision of how to play the shot before you set your forward foot down, that forward foot should be pointing in the direction of the intended cue ball travel. Your body and arms alignment should be set and not altered, if you find your in the wrong position you should get back up and start again.

Changing the position of your swinging arm after you get down will cause you to be inconsistent and open to many variables in the way you swing the cue through. You will find it difficult to consistently deliver the cue through straight.

 

[pete lafond]

I know we are discussing theory here and there are no absolutes, but I absolutely disagree with this advice.

You are breaking a fundamental rule and that being, changing your cue arm and body alignment after you set up. you are removing your references for body/arm position.
You will never achieve consistency with this style.

You should have made your decision of how to play the shot before you set your forward foot down, that forward foot should be pointing in the direction of the intended cue ball travel. Your body and arms alignment should be set and not altered, if you find your in the wrong position you should get back up and start again.

Changing the position of your swinging arm after you get down will cause you to be inconsistent and open to many variables in the way you swing the cue through. You will find it difficult to consistently deliver the cue through straight.

Well said. How many players have missed shots because they changed their mind about what english to use while already down on the table. Any changes without getting up again to realign can be fatal....

 

[Jal]

Banking a ball with english, eg outside, causes the CB to curve which enhances the cut resulting in a wider bank leaving the player the impression that it changed the angle off the rail.

On the rail both contact induced spin to change the rail depature angle and english to cause the CB to avoid double hit are used. In all cases, we use english on the CB to cause a curve and not to transfer the side english.

Pete, I admire your determination to not accept things on authority, but Jsp and Bob are right.

The curious thing is that you accept contact induced spin but not english induced spin when both are caused by the same thing: surface friction between the balls. The object ball simply doesn't care if the surfaces are rubbing against each other because the cueball is moving askew of it, as in a cut shot, or spinning. By applying the right amount of sidespin, contact induced spin and throw of the object ball can be reduced, increased, eliminated or reversed. All that matters is how fast one surface is rubbing against the other one.

If the relative surface speed is small, the cueball will slide across the object ball for a very short period of time (high friction), then roll across it (no friction). Very little transfered spin or throw will occur. If the relative surface speed is greater, it will take the cueball longer to reach the rolling state on the OB, and more spin and throw will take place. Maximum transfer of spin and object ball throw occur when the relative surface speed is such that the cueball just reaches the rolling state when the balls separate from each other, i.e., the cueball slides during the entire contact period. If you increase the relative surface speed even more, transfered spin and throw begin to diminish because the friction force itself is reduced with increasing surface speed.

This is true whether the relative surface speed is due to cut angle, spin, or both. And it doesn't matter how the the spin axis is oriented; it applies to topspin, sidespin, draw or any combination therein. And the condition of the cloth has absolutely nothing to do with any of it, although dirty cloth will remove the induced spin quicker. I know you didn't assert this but I thought I'd mention it.

Jim

 

[Colin Colenso]

You should have made your decision of how to play the shot before you set your forward foot down, that forward foot should be pointing in the direction of the intended cue ball travel. Your body and arms alignment should be set and not altered, if you find your in the wrong position you should get back up and start again.

Changing the position of your swinging arm after you get down will cause you to be inconsistent and open to many variables in the way you swing the cue through. You will find it difficult to consistently deliver the cue through straight.

While getting into a comfortable and solid boby position is advantageous for helping to find the line of the shot, and even for execution, I believe that once the bridge hand position is set correctly according to the stroke to be made, the body position is basically an insignificant variable.

The ability to actually cue through to the CB with the required accuracy is very easy for any relatively experience player....it's not even that hard when stretching or off balance.

I could set up a test where a bridge is set on the table, a CB and OB in place. You cannot even see the OB or the pocket.

A small dot is placed on the CB where you are told to cue into that spot with a straight stroke from that bridge at medium speed. This could be a 4 foot from CB to OB and 4 foot from OB to pocket.

I would estimate that most half decent players would be able to make that shot from there 99 times out of one hundred. In fact you could almost stand on your head and still manage to hit the CB within the acceptable margin of error to make the pot.

This is why, I don't believe moving the body after set up is important. What is important is setting the bridge and then knowing the may you will stroke the shot and where on the CB to aim.

 

[pete lafond]

Pete, I admire your determination to not accept things on authority, but Jsp and Bob are right.

The curious thing is that you accept contact induced spin but not english induced spin when both are caused by the same thing: surface friction between the balls. The object ball simply doesn't care if the surfaces are rubbing against each other because the cueball is moving askew of it, as in a cut shot, or spinning. By applying the right amount of sidespin, contact induced spin and throw of the object ball can be reduced, increased, eliminated or reversed. All that matters is how fast one surface is rubbing against the other one.

If the relative surface speed is small, the cueball will slide across the object ball for a very short period of time (high friction), then roll across it (no friction). Very little transfered spin or throw will occur. If the relative surface speed is greater, it will take the cueball longer to reach the rolling state on the OB, and more spin and throw will take place. Maximum transfer of spin and object ball throw occur when the relative surface speed is such that the cueball just reaches the rolling state when the balls separate from each other, i.e., the cueball slides during the entire contact period. If you increase the relative surface speed even more, transfered spin and throw begin to diminish because the friction force itself is reduced with increasing surface speed.

This is true whether the relative surface speed is due to cut angle, spin, or both. And it doesn't matter how the the spin axis is oriented; it applies to topspin, sidespin, draw or any combination therein. And the condition of the cloth has absolutely nothing to do with any of it, although dirty cloth will remove the induced spin quicker. I know you didn't assert this but I thought I'd mention it.

Jim

I'm referrring to side spin transfer on a direct hit, not a cut shot... See earlier post. Try it with a stripe ball and see what happens.

 

[Nico]

I was not clear. This was meant with regards to a full ball contact.

Pete,

Side spin on the CB always has a throw effect on the OB, no matter how thin or thick the cut is. I use side spin on perfectly straight shots to throw a banked object ball all the time.

I posted the following back in post #22 of this very thread. Click Here

 

[Colin Colenso]

And I just remembered a simple demo of this. Imagine you are playing one pocket. Put a ball on the spot. You are going to bank it to your pocket one cushion off the head rail. Absolutely standard shot at one pocket or bank pool. Now freeze a ball to the head cushion at the natural banking point of the ball. This will be close to the diamond or slightly more than a diamond from the head pocket on your side of the table. Using side spin on the cue ball, you can sitll bank the ball back to your pocket hitting to either side of the frozen object ball on the head rail using firm speed. You can do this with an absolutely full hit on the object ball, leaving the cue ball spinning in place. On some tables you can freeze two balls side-by-side on the head rail and bank on either side of them.

I tried that as diagrammed below and successfully banked left and right of the two balls on the rail using the opposite spin.

Both shots were played at the same firm speed, with CB in direct line about 6" behind the OB, so there was not time for any swerve. The CB span on the spot after each shot.

This test is definite proof of the significant effect of spin transference.

 

[pooltchr]

It gets some good discussion going on some very difficult subjects. It makes people think and sometimes re-think their opinions. And I am not only an instructor, but a student of the game as well. I still learn a lot through discussions such as this. Often, I read an answer written in a way I hadn't thought about. When I am working with students, sometimes you have to explain a concept 3 or 4 different ways before it clicks for the student. The more I learn, the better instructor I can become.

Nico,
I was not intending to yank your chain. If that is the impression I gave, I apologize. Just trying to keep the discussion moving. I thought it was an interesting topic.
Steve

 

[pete lafond]

.. By applying the right amount of sidespin, contact induced spin and throw of the object ball can be reduced, increased, eliminated or reversed. All that matters is how fast one surface is rubbing against the other one.

Jim

Yes this is correct, but again this applies only to a cut shot. Even more so, what inside English does to the CB is in fact make it skid (or slippery in a sense) off the OB ball. Outside English on the other hand results in a throw. In addition to curve, this is also why very thin cuts can be made with inside English as easily as with outside English.

(out of topic) Most players will use outside English on a maximum cut shot and CB travel can become disastrous at times. Inside English on those same cuts allow you to affect "kill" on the CB for much less travel.

The only time inside English has an effect on a throw are when 2 balls are frozen and you want to minimize the throw of the 2nd ball.

 

[pete lafond]

Pete,

Side spin on the CB always has a throw effect on the OB, no matter how thin or thick the cut is. I use side spin on perfectly straight shots to throw a banked object ball all the time.

I posted the following back in post #22 of this very thread. Click Here

I thought that I was getting my chain yanked. I saw the BCA certified instructor signature and thought to myself, wow, for a BCA instructor this guy sure needs a helmut.

ZERO CUT is what I am referring to. Yes this will work if sidespin with slight below center is used. Pure middle ball with side spin should cause zero transfer. Reason: CB deflects off OB and contact is only pin point, there is no pause or leaning on the OB to enable spin transfer which is what happens on a cut shot (cut shot causes a roll across the OB).

Important that middle left or right is used and absolutely zero cut. Contact should be made head on to test. Side spin on a direct hit should have the effect of a hit with an oiled ball that has near zero friction. Note if balls are dirty or do not have a perfectly smooth surface, my statements do not apply.

 

[Nico]

Yes this is correct, but again this applies only to a cut shot. Even more so, what inside English does to the CB is in fact make it skid (or slippery in a sense) off the OB ball. Outside English on the other hand results in a throw. In addition to curve, this is also why very thin cuts can be made with inside English as easily as with outside English.

(out of topic) Most players will use outside English on a maximum cut shot and CB travel can become disastrous at times. Inside English on those same cuts allow you to affect "kill" on the CB for much less travel.

The only time inside English has an effect on a throw are when 2 balls are frozen and you want to minimize the throw of the 2nd ball.

Pete - The other night I had a shot on the eightball and I only had one corner pocket to make it in. Problem was, one of my opponents balls had it's very edge taking that option away. So, I shot the eightball to pass the obstructing ball, sending the eight traveling away from the pocket. I needed to force the eightball to curve towards the pocket (right) after leaving the CB.

I used left side-spin on the cueball, and it was inside english. The eight ball travelled towards the pocket and dropped. The ball curved from it's original line by about 3" inches.

ZERO CUT is what I am referring to. Yes this will work if sidespin with slight below center is used. Pure middle ball with side spin should cause zero transfer. Reason: CB deflects off OB and contact is only pin point, there is no pause or leaning on the OB to enable spin transfer which is what happens on a cut shot (cut shot causes a roll across the OB).

Important that middle left or right is used and absolutely zero cut. Contact should be made head on to test. Side spin on a direct hit should have the effect of a hit with an oiled ball that has near zero friction. Note if balls are dirty or do not have a perfectly smooth surface, my statements do not apply.

When I'm trying to throw an OB, I always use center hit. The OB always throws as intended, regardless of cut angle. Sorry, your theory does not apply. Try my example from post #22, and use centerball hit, you'll see.

 

[pete lafond]

Pete - The other night I had a shot on the eightball and I only had one corner pocket to make it in. Problem was, one of my opponents balls had it's very edge taking that option away. So, I shot the eightball to pass the obstructing ball, sending the eight traveling away from the pocket. I needed to force the eightball to curve towards the pocket (right) after leaving the CB.

I used left side-spin on the cueball, and it was inside english. The eight ball travelled towards the pocket and dropped. The ball curved from it's original line by about 3" inches.

You're talking science, I'm giving examples.

Yes when a ball is obstructing the pocket this shot is effective. What really happens is by applying English you affected a small curve on the CB, you may not notice. This curve results in the same effect as a cut shot (turned it into a cut shot) and now allowing a throw to occur. It can not otherwise happen.

 

[pete lafond]

...
When I'm trying to throw an OB, I always use center hit. The OB always throws as intended, regardless of cut angle. Sorry, your theory does not apply. Try my example from post #22, and use centerball hit, you'll see.

Without causing a cut, throw does not exist. I am not basing this on theory rather what I need to do to manipulate shots. Again if you are talking about sticky or dirty balls I can see it working because I have done it.

 

[Colin Colenso]

Pete - The other night I had a shot on the eightball and I only had one corner pocket to make it in. Problem was, one of my opponents balls had it's very edge taking that option away. So, I shot the eightball to pass the obstructing ball, sending the eight traveling away from the pocket. I needed to force the eightball to curve towards the pocket (right) after leaving the CB.

I used left side-spin on the cueball, and it was inside english. The eight ball travelled towards the pocket and dropped. The ball curved from it's original line by about 3" inches.

When I'm trying to throw an OB, I always use center hit. The OB always throws as intended, regardless of cut angle. Sorry, your theory does not apply. Try my example from post #22, and use centerball hit, you'll see.

If your ball curved it would be due to a rolling table.

Extensive testing has been done to see if side transfer can cause the OB to swerve and tests come back as negative...as the theory predicts.

 

[pete lafond]

Pete - I'm talking about spinning the OB round a corner using CB spin. There was only 8 inches between the CB and OB, cueball curve was not a factor. I actually made the object ball curve after leaving the cueball.

Or squirt... (edited: I mentioned squirt only because it causes the CB to move off path and this in reality has no effect on what we are discussing) Either way an angle must be created or throw will not occur. Simply put, not enough contact time to enable transfer.

I would love to watch you as you demonstrate the shot, I think I would be able to better describe what is happening.

Very Important: When a player thinks they are applying perfect midddle english so not to cause the CB from curving, they are infact hitting down on the CB. It is difficult to impart perfect middle without the knuckles of your grip hand touching the table. High English pushes the CB down which causes curve when sidespin is used..


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[cuetechasaurus]

Or squirt... (edited: I mentioned squirt only because it causes the CB to move off path and this in reality has no effect on what we are discussing) Either way an angle must be created or throw will not occur. Simply put, not enough contact time to enable transfer.

I would love to watch you as you demonstrate the shot, I think I would be able to better describe what is happening.

Very Important: When a player thinks they are applying perfect midddle english so not to cause the CB from curving, they are infact hitting down on the CB. It is difficult to impart perfect middle without the knuckles of your grip hand touching the table. High English pushes the CB down which causes curve when sidespin is used..


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You've kinda taken this curving thing too far...top spin is the only way you can hit the cueball with a truly level stroke, without your knuckles hitting the rail. You are not hitting down on the cueball unless your bridge point is too high, which it shouldn't be, and the CB will not curve unless it's hit very softly with alot of sidespin.

 

[Slasher]

While getting into a comfortable and solid boby position is advantageous for helping to find the line of the shot, and even for execution, I believe that once the bridge hand position is set correctly according to the stroke to be made, the body position is basically an insignificant variable.

The ability to actually cue through to the CB with the required accuracy is very easy for any relatively experience player....it's not even that hard when stretching or off balance.

I could set up a test where a bridge is set on the table, a CB and OB in place. You cannot even see the OB or the pocket.

A small dot is placed on the CB where you are told to cue into that spot with a straight stroke from that bridge at medium speed. This could be a 4 foot from CB to OB and 4 foot from OB to pocket.

I would estimate that most half decent players would be able to make that shot from there 99 times out of one hundred. In fact you could almost stand on your head and still manage to hit the CB within the acceptable margin of error to make the pot.

This is why, I don't believe moving the body after set up is important. What is important is setting the bridge and then knowing the may you will stroke the shot and where on the CB to aim.

Moving the body is not important ???, oh my. Try telling that theory to any golf or snooker pro. You may well get away with this for the simple shots on a 9' with bucket pockets fine.
But you will not be consistent and you would fail miserably on a snooker table.
Your body position and arm alignment are sacred, the very foundation, without that you have nothing. Do this right and the rest will fall into place nicely.

 

[Jaden]

I know we are discussing theory here and there are no absolutes, but I absolutely disagree with this advice.

You are breaking a fundamental rule and that being, changing your cue arm and body alignment after you set up. you are removing your references for body/arm position.
You will never achieve consistency with this style.

You should have made your decision of how to play the shot before you set your forward foot down, that forward foot should be pointing in the direction of the intended cue ball travel. Your body and arms alignment should be set and not altered, if you find your in the wrong position you should get back up and start again.

Changing the position of your swinging arm after you get down will cause you to be inconsistent and open to many variables in the way you swing the cue through. You will find it difficult to consistently deliver the cue through straight.

Well considering that some of the most consistent players in the world, i.e. efren reyes etc. use this system, I think that your wrong, plus I am a 100 + player in usppa, so I do have SOME consistency. You don't adjust your arm during the stroke, that will throw you off considerably, you find your initial aim and get down and then decide how much spin you're going to need. then you adjust that amount and do some practice strokes and then you stroke through the ball straight as an arrow.

 

[Jaden]

I find the most noticeable effect from humidity is the increased cloth friction which increases the swerve considerably.

Swerve it quite tricky to deal with using a BHE adjusment method on slow to medium shots on grippy cloth. In such cases, I simply have to aim thicker for OE and thinner for IE. Even a 25" bridge length won't compensate for that swerve deviation when played slow over a decent length. At least on my table with my cue. My table is quite slow as I use an upturned snooker heavy nap cloth. Upturned so the fibers are not directional.

I think like any variable, there is a way to compensate for it, so long as it acts in a predictable manner and that manner can be derived.

This is exactly why it is necesary to minimize swerve by elevating or lowering your bridge to allow as straight through the CB a stroke as is possible when combining follow and draw with side spin.

 

[jsp]

...Side spin on a direct hit should have the effect of a hit with an oiled ball that has near zero friction.

Um...if the balls have near zero friction, then there will be almost no spin induced throw, regardless of the cut angle. Heck, if there is zero friction, you can't get the dang balls to spin at all.

Note if balls are dirty or do not have a perfectly smooth surface, my statements do not apply.

Doesn't perfectly smooth surface imply absolutely no friction? Practically speaking, when is this ever the case? So basically you're admitting that since the real world has a certain amount of friction associated with the balls, then there will be transfer of spin with zero cut angle, but the amount of transfer is proportional to the amount of friction. If this is what you're saying, then we're speaking the same language.