English and how it affects the CB and OB

[mikepage]

Pete - The other night I had a shot on the eightball and I only had one corner pocket to make it in. Problem was, one of my opponents balls had it's very edge taking that option away. So, I shot the eightball to pass the obstructing ball, sending the eight traveling away from the pocket. I needed to force the eightball to curve towards the pocket (right) after leaving the CB.

I used left side-spin on the cueball, and it was inside english. The eight ball travelled towards the pocket and dropped. The ball curved from it's original line by about 3" inches.

[...]
.

I think Bob Jewett has a standing offer of $1,000,000 for anyone who can demonstrate this.

....or maybe the $1,000,000 is the offer from the amazing Randi for anyone who can bend a spoon...


--anyway, it's something like that...

mike page
fargo

 

[Colin Colenso]

Moving the body is not important ???, oh my. Try telling that theory to any golf or snooker pro. You may well get away with this for the simple shots on a 9' with bucket pockets fine.
But you will not be consistent and you would fail miserably on a snooker table.
Your body position and arm alignment are sacred, the very foundation, without that you have nothing. Do this right and the rest will fall into place nicely.

Slasher,
I grew up playing snooker and read all the books and beieved all that same stuff which is folklore in snooker advice.

My honest opinion is that snooker coaches at even the highest levels have a very poor understanding of what is really going on.

In snooker, the center ball shot is fundamental. Little side (english) is required. The is little reason for snooker players then to pivot or move around. They could improve with BHE on certain shots, and I believe some in the future will and you will see players re-adjusting as I have described.

What I really believe separates the best snooker players from the thousands who have perfect technical actions is their ability for accurate bridge hand placement.

I simply ask you to experiment with it. I believe you'll come to see what I mean.

 

[mikepage]

ZERO CUT is what I am referring to. Yes this will work if sidespin with slight below center is used. Pure middle ball with side spin should cause zero transfer. Reason: CB deflects off OB and contact is only pin point, there is no pause or leaning on the OB to enable spin transfer which is what happens on a cut shot (cut shot causes a roll across the OB).

Important that middle left or right is used and absolutely zero cut. Contact should be made head on to test. Side spin on a direct hit should have the effect of a hit with an oiled ball that has near zero friction. Note if balls are dirty or do not have a perfectly smooth surface, my statements do not apply.

Oh contraire...

Your condition of sidespin only is the right condition for *maximum* spin-induced throw.

Hit this full shot with some top or bottom along with the sidespin and the throw will be reduced.

Throw does not come from a gearing effect. The balls don't lock together and roll off of one another. Instead the two surfaces rub across one another. The force from the rubbing is only weakly dependent on speed (You can throw a ball with a modest amount of english on the cueball as well as you can throw it with a ton of english).

There's only a certain amount of force from the rubbing. When the cueball has no top or bottom spin but only sidespin, this force is all throw. If the cueball has some top or bottom spin in addition to the sidespin, this force is only partially directed sideways and there will be less throw.

there are practical ramifications of this information.

mike page
fargo

 

[pete lafond]

You've kinda taken this curving thing too far...top spin is the only way you can hit the cueball with a truly level stroke, without your knuckles hitting the rail. You are not hitting down on the cueball unless your bridge point is too high, which it shouldn't be, and the CB will not curve unless it's hit very softly with alot of sidespin.

Not correct, top spin pushes down on the CB. This holds true on a level stroke as well.

 

[pete lafond]

Oh contraire...

Your condition of sidespin only is the right condition for *maximum* spin-induced throw.

Hit this full shot with some top or bottom along with the sidespin and the throw will be reduced.

Throw does not come from a gearing effect. The balls don't lock together and roll off of one another. Instead the two surfaces rub across one another. The force from the rubbing is only weakly dependent on speed (You can throw a ball with a modest amount of english on the cueball as well as you can throw it with a ton of english).

There's only a certain amount of force from the rubbing. When the cueball has no top or bottom spin but only sidespin, this force is all throw. If the cueball has some top or bottom spin in addition to the sidespin, this force is only partially directed sideways and there will be less throw.

there are practical ramifications of this information.

mike page
fargo

Means the same thing, rubbing and gear effect. No one has yet proved to me that they can spin a CB and make the OB spin the reverse way with side english only on a direct hit. In each case they created a very slight angle.

The simple reason is that the CB makes a pinpoint contact and then immediatly deflects. The surface of the billiard balls are not frictionous enough and what happens is that by spinning the CB it becomes an even more slippery surface.

 

[Colin Colenso]

Means the same thing, rubbing and gear effect. No one has yet proved to me that they can spin a CB and make the OB spin the reverse way with side english only on a direct hit. In each case they created a very slight angle.

The simple reason is that the CB makes a pinpoint contact and then immediatly deflects. The surface of the billiard balls are not frictionous enough and what happens is that by spinning the CB it becomes an even more slippery surface.

Pete,
How do you explain what is happening in the diagram I posted?

The OB can only defect at such differing angles due to having obtained some degree of spin from the straight on shots played with side.
Colin

 

[Jaden]

Means the same thing, rubbing and gear effect. No one has yet proved to me that they can spin a CB and make the OB spin the reverse way with side english only on a direct hit. In each case they created a very slight angle.

The simple reason is that the CB makes a pinpoint contact and then immediatly deflects. The surface of the billiard balls are not frictionous enough and what happens is that by spinning the CB it becomes an even more slippery surface.

Well then what about the difference between using left or right english when shorting the pocket. The ball will either rattle or roll right in depending on whether you use right or left english. This is evidence of transfer of english to the OB.

 

[pete lafond]

Well then what about the difference between using left or right english when shorting the pocket. The ball will either rattle or roll right in depending on whether you use right or left english. This is evidence of transfer of english to the OB.

Generally low english will cause a rattle in the jaws of a pocket.

Again I am stating that if the CB is shot at a straight line to the OB and zero angle is created, the side spinning CB does not transfer to cause a side spinning OB. Try this with a striped OB on a perfectly straight shot. Do not allow the CB to deviate off the straight path. I am going to try this tonight at the pool hall.

Try it as well. No angles and do not allow the CB to curve.

 

[pete lafond]

Pete,
How do you explain what is happening in the diagram I posted?

The OB can only defect at such differing angles due to having obtained some degree of spin from the straight on shots played with side.
Colin

CB must curve a little or a slight angle is somehow created. On occassion I will cause straight shots to be shot at a more extreme angle for position or create straight shots out of small angle shots.

Bank shots are affected by angle, speed and CB induced spin which are all controlled by the player shooting them.

Again line up a straight shot from diamond to diamond. Use a striped ball as the OB and look to see if the OB is spinning in the oposite direction of the CB..


.
.

I will try your shots, but I do expect that I will have to use CB curve to achieve the same results.

 

[mikepage]

Means the same thing, rubbing and gear effect. [...].

No it doesn't. The "Gear effect" idea is wrong and leads to confusion. The "gear effect" suggests it's static friction, while the rubbing correctly suggests it's kinetic friction. The static friction notion leads to conclusions that don't hold water. It's a misconception people should get out of their heads, imo.

mike page
fargo

 

[Jaden]

No it doesn't. The "Gear effect" idea is wrong and leads to confusion. The "gear effect" suggests it's static friction, while the rubbing correctly suggests it's kinetic friction. The static friction notion leads to conclusions that don't hold water. It's a misconception people should get out of their heads, imo.

mike page
fargo

In this, you're right, the gear effect insinuates that it is a 1/1 ratio of energy interchange when in actuality it is no where near that.

 

[Colin Colenso]

CB must curve a little or a slight angle is somehow created. On occassion I will cause straight shots to be shot at a more extreme angle for position or create straight shots out of small angle shots.

Bank shots are affected by angle, speed and CB induced spin which are all controlled by the player shooting them.

Again line up a straight shot from diamond to diamond. Use a striped ball as the OB and look to see if the OB is spinning in the oposite direction of the CB..


.
.

I will try your shots, but I do expect that I will have to use CB curve to achieve the same results.

Pete,
I shot those shots in a direct straight line just 6" behind the OB at firm speed and left the CB spinning like a top.

It is impossible for swerve to have affected the travel of the CB.

If you hit a striped ball down a table the spin is not visible or hard to discern because spin tranference is only around 2%. (Robert Byrne's figure).

But place another OB directly in front of the first OB and the first object ball will stop and spin a little on the spot. Making the transfered spin on a straight shot visible.

 

[Slasher]

Slasher,
I grew up playing snooker and read all the books and beieved all that same stuff which is folklore in snooker advice.

My honest opinion is that snooker coaches at even the highest levels have a very poor understanding of what is really going on.

In snooker, the center ball shot is fundamental. Little side (english) is required. The is little reason for snooker players then to pivot or move around. They could improve with BHE on certain shots, and I believe some in the future will and you will see players re-adjusting as I have described.

What I really believe separates the best snooker players from the thousands who have perfect technical actions is their ability for accurate bridge hand placement.

I simply ask you to experiment with it. I believe you'll come to see what I mean.

I don't even know where to start with this cracker.
You are rejecting the fundamentals that have produced Steve Davis, Stephen Hendry, Ronnie O, Alison Fisher, blah blah blah adinfinitum.
Claiming snooker coaches have poor understanding :lol: OMFG.
Have a nice carreer.

 

[Jal]

...Again I am stating that if the CB is shot at a straight line to the OB and zero angle is created, the side spinning CB does not transfer to cause a side spinning OB. Try this with a striped OB on a perfectly straight shot. Do not allow the CB to deviate off the straight path. I am going to try this tonight at the pool hall....

A heroic stance to be sure, but how do you explain the following:

http://www.engr.colostate.edu/~dga/pool/high_speed_videos/new/HSVA-83.htm

Jim

 

[Slasher]

Well considering that some of the most consistent players in the world, i.e. efren reyes etc. use this system, I think that your wrong, plus I am a 100 + player in usppa, so I do have SOME consistency. You don't adjust your arm during the stroke, that will throw you off considerably, you find your initial aim and get down and then decide how much spin you're going to need. then you adjust that amount and do some practice strokes and then you stroke through the ball straight as an arrow.

Hey I could play just as well standing on my head with a bunch of daffodils sticking out my ass if I practiced it long enough.
It's about good fundamentals and the short path to consistency, not so and so plays like this so it's right. You can point to a few that may play like this but I can point to hundreds that don't
There are many ways to do things, but there are ways to be better faster.

 

[pete lafond]

A heroic stance to be sure, but how do you explain the following:

http://www.engr.colostate.edu/~dga/pool/high_speed_videos/new/HSVA-83.htm

Jim

Thanks for the clip Jim. I watched it but I wish they had a better top down view. It is difficult to see the line clearly. Anyway I did try a few shots tonight to test it out. Dead on with sidespin and there was no transfer.

In any event I tried to see if I could get sidespin to effect my banks and each time the OB came back as if no spin on it. However, when I played the shot to make it as Colin showed it and used spin both shots pocketed but the CB did curve a little. I could tell it curved and did not make perfectly straight contact so it really was not a fair test.

I will try again.

 

[Colin Colenso]

I don't even know where to start with this cracker.
You are rejecting the fundamentals that have produced Steve Davis, Stephen Hendry, Ronnie O, Alison Fisher, blah blah blah adinfinitum.
Claiming snooker coaches have poor understanding :lol: OMFG.
Have a nice carreer.

I could go through Frank Callan's articles and show you many examples of aspects of physics he doesn't understand, and he is considered the guru of snooker coaches by many as I understand. I could do the same with any of the snooker instructional books I have read from Joe and Steve Davis to Pulman. Nothing beats 6 hours a day of practice however. There's a fundamental I'll agree with.

As you know it all already, I'll save myself some time.

Thanks for the toungue-in-cheek encouragement
Colin

 

[TheConArtist]

thank you all for all of the explanations. it all makes perfect sense now. several of you advised not hitting english shots unless it is absolutely necessary for position. however, i see the pros hitting draw shots with left or right english all of the time...is it because they are so good that they can make these shots without effort? should i not bother with these types of shots until my game is at a near-pro level? would love to hear your thoughts on this.

thanks for all of the knowledge!

I use to have trouble with english shots also, so i never used it that often. I always thought getting the natarul angle i wouldn't have to mess with english but of course you cant always get that angle.. The BHE help me with using english for my shots alot. Though it has its flaws that i don't know about YET lol. What i use to do or still do is place all the balls on the table and shoot each ball and try to pocket the ball using nothing but left english after i can pot those balls then i do the same thing with right english to get the feel of using english on the shots and become familiar with using it just incase the shot comes up where i have to use english, even straight in shots. It was a good drill that i put into my routine of practicing, practice with the proper respect and go to the table with a purpose. Very good thread, Thanks to everyone that has posted, i have been playing for sometime now and i still learn alot from each of you.

 

[Jaden]

Hey I could play just as well standing on my head with a bunch of daffodils sticking out my ass if I practiced it long enough.
It's about good fundamentals and the short path to consistency, not so and so plays like this so it's right. You can point to a few that may play like this but I can point to hundreds that don't
There are many ways to do things, but there are ways to be better faster.

And I guarantee that to be better faster and in the long run you;re going to want to use BHE. Damn, I don't know how many times I've told this story on this forum but here it goes again. Efren Reyes taught to me translated by Alex of shooters in Riverside in 2000 how to use BHE when I asked him how he was making the ball using sooo much English so consistently. It didn't make any sense to me, I had used parallel english with manual adjustment for years.

I didn't think it was possible for it to work so I ignored Efren's advice for three years, after those three years another A+ player I was friends with started describing the same system, so I tried it. After some practice with it I learned that it was sooo easy and worked for sooo many shots that I had been an idiot to not have atleast tried it.

Now you have to have all of the fundamentals down to a tee, for it to work properly, I.E. straight stroke, ability to let the cue do the work and an ability to trust your aimline, but it is the definitive system for adjusting for English.PERIOD end of story. Anyone who tells you different hasn't tried it or doesn't have the ability to do all of those things I mentioned. Even top players who have learned via other methods can have trouble trying to switch to the system because their experience conflicts with what they think should happen, so they end up not trusting that it will work and don't stroke straight becuase they are pulling their wrist or minutely adjusting their aim at the last possible second.

Slasher, you're sounding exactly like I did, when Efren explained the system to me and the only way you can find out whether it works or not is to try it, so until you seriously try it, don't knock it, or you could find yourself trying three years down the line and realize that you had wasted three years of practice trying to learn to adjust for English manually.

 

[Slasher]

Your theory holds no merit to me.
You are not going to be able to strike the cue ball any further from center by changing the lateral position of your swing arm. You are simply moving the cue to an angle across the intended path. The outside edge is the outside edge, you can go no further.
If you are imparting more english by doing this than you were able to before, I suggest maybe you are swinging the cue in an arc.
Do us a favour and video your stroke from above.
I would love to see if you stroke straight through the ball.