englishing cue ball

[Lucky_Lew66]

I have a question for yall,i read Bob Bynes series of books, and Jack Koehlers book years ago, and it seems like i remember them saying it doesnt matter how far out on the cueball you go left or right ,that you get the same amount of English transfer from the cueball to the object ball. The reason for my question is ,in one pocket you are definitly trying to spin the object balls a lot of times to get the cueball out of the way on double kiss paths. Also i would think that you lose aiming ability and maybe even get more cueball deflection the farther out on the cueball that you go,so if one could stay closer to center ball,within a half tip left or right and get the same amount of English transfer to the object ball it would be better,what say ye smart billiard players. Maybe Bob Jewett will have an interjection for me...

 

[CreeDo]

Sounds good to me.

One of the small revelations I had is when using sidespin to throw in a ball in 'close hit' situations, where you must barely avoid hitting another ball first... I used to cue pretty extremely far out and then hit very slowly to make it work.

Found out that moderate spin and a slightly firmer pace gets better results... the amount of spin is a function of speed too, maybe it's more speed than tip placement. You can't have the spin die before it reaches the object ball (or before a spun object ball reaches a rail).

 

[Bob Jewett]

I have a question for yall,i read Bob Bynes series of books, and Jack Koehlers book years ago, and it seems like i remember them saying it doesnt matter how far out on the cueball you go left or right ,that you get the same amount of English transfer from the cueball to the object ball. The reason for my question is ,in one pocket you are definitly trying to spin the object balls a lot of times to get the cueball out of the way on double kiss paths. Also i would think that you lose aiming ability and maybe even get more cueball deflection the farther out on the cueball that you go,so if one could stay closer to center ball,within a half tip left or right and get the same amount of English transfer to the object ball it would be better,what say ye smart billiard players. Maybe Bob Jewett will have an interjection for me...

An interjection in public?:yikes:

The amount of side spin the object ball gets depends on the speed, angle and side spin, and draw/follow on the cue ball. In some situations, like shots near a 30-degree cut, you will get maximum spin on the object ball by having no spin at all on the cue ball. Mostly this is only interesting when "adjusting" bank shots as you noted.

I think Dr. Dave has some details about this on his web site: http://billiards.colostate.edu/

 

[dr_dave]

The amount of side spin the object ball gets depends on the speed, angle and side spin, and draw/follow on the cue ball. In some situations, like shots near a 30-degree cut, you will get maximum spin on the object ball by having no spin at all on the cue ball. Mostly this is only interesting when "adjusting" bank shots as you noted.

I think Dr. Dave has some details about this on his web site: http://billiards.colostate.edu/

The amount of spin transferred to the OB is directly related to the amount of throw. The conditions under which throw (and spin transfer) are maximum are explained and demonstrated here:

maximum throw resource page​

Regards,
Dave

 

[naji]

The amount of spin transferred to the OB is directly related to the amount of throw. The conditions under which throw (and spin transfer) are maximum are explained and demonstrated here:

maximum throw resource page​

Regards,
Dave

Thanks Dave and Bob,
Just want to add to those new readers, what Dave and Bob are talking about is near stun or stun shots. With good rolling cue ball at contact with OB as in follow through slightly above center, and medium to high speed the throw is almost none extant with bottom, top, sides english or no english, yet the spin induced throw on OB is there when angle is small using side spin. If OB is dirty there will be minimal throw, with higher speed throw will disappear.

 

[dr_dave]

If OB is dirty there will be minimal throw

This is not true in general. In fact, cling/kick/skid (excessive throw) usually occurs more with dirty conditions (especially if much of the "dirt" is chalk residue).

with higher speed throw will disappear.

Throw is less at higher speeds (except CIT at small cut angles, where the amount of throw doesn't change with speed), but it does not "disappear" (it is just less).

FYI to you or others, the following video demonstrates most of the important throw effects:

NV B.86 - Cut-induced throw (CIT) and spin-induced throw (SIT), from VEPS IV​

Regards,
Dave

 

[Gogafem]

I don't really play one pocket, but I only tend to use a lot of English when it's necessary. If not I use less.

 

[Cornerman]

An interjection in public?:yikes:

Show excitement,
Or emotion.
They're generally set apart from a sentence
By an exclamation point,
Or by a comma when the feeling's not as strong. Mmmm...

Freddie <~~~ so when you're happy...

 

[naji]

This is not true in general. In fact, cling/kick/skid (excessive throw) usually occurs more with dirty conditions (especially if much of the "dirt" is chalk residue).



Throw is less at higher speeds (except CIT at small cut angles, where the amount of throw doesn't change with speed), but it does not "disappear" (it is just less).

FYI to you or others, the following video demonstrates most of the important throw effects:

NV B.86 - Cut-induced throw (CIT) and spin-induced throw (SIT), from VEPS IV​

Regards,
Dave

I usually do not disagree with what you say, but on this issue, i respectably disagree, if the speed is high and CB is rolling at time of contact there will be no throw-extremely small does not effect pocketing; what happen on normal shots, throw happens when OB is closer than a diamond or so at times it is hard to get enough roll, but extreme top and nice follow through, throw goes away, other reason we think it is throw is that some people aim wrong, it is naturally to under cut balls, i do agree with you, if you intentionally smothered the CB with chalk, but normal smudges is not cause for throw at high speed, i agree lots of chalk and talkom powder on table do cause CB to not role and cause skidding which lead to OB throw


Throw is less at higher speeds (except CIT at small cut angles, where the amount of throw doesn't change with speed), but it does not "disappear" (it is just less).

Throw is very very small at high speed regardless of angle

 

[dr_dave]

This is not true in general. In fact, cling/kick/skid (excessive throw) usually occurs more with dirty conditions (especially if much of the "dirt" is chalk residue).

Throw is less at higher speeds (except CIT at small cut angles, where the amount of throw doesn't change with speed), but it does not "disappear" (it is just less).

FYI to you or others, the following video demonstrates most of the important throw effects:

NV B.86 - Cut-induced throw (CIT) and spin-induced throw (SIT), from VEPS IV​

I usually do not disagree with what you say, but on this issue, i respectably disagree, if the speed is high and CB is rolling at time of contact there will be no throw-extremely small does not effect pocketing

I agree with you completely that throw (CIT or SIT) is less with a rolling ball as opposed to a stunned ball, and is usually less at faster speed; but again, there is still some throw with fast follow shots (albeit, a small amount). And with long shots on a table with tight pockets, this small amount of throw is definitely enough to miss a shot (if you are aiming the OB at the center of the pocket and not compensating for throw, either consciously or not).

Throw is very very small at high speed regardless of angle

Watch the throw video starting at 7:28 (here's the direct link to this point in the video). The shot at 8:24 is missed due to throw at fast speed. Again, the amount of throw is much less at faster speeds, but it is not negligible.

Regards,
Dave

 

[naji]

I agree with you completely that throw (CIT or SIT) is less with a rolling ball as opposed to a stunned ball, and is usually less at faster speed; but again, there is still some throw with fast follow shots (albeit, a small amount). And with long shots on a table with tight pockets, this small amount of throw is definitely enough to miss a shot (if you are aiming the OB at the center of the pocket and not compensating for throw, either consciously or not).

Watch the throw video starting at 7:28 (here's the direct link to this point in the video). The shot at 8:24 is missed due to throw at fast speed. Again, the amount of throw is much less at faster speeds, but it is not negligible.

Regards,
Dave

OK i will give you the 1st one, even though the aim spot is extremely small for up table shot to begin with let a loan between center of pocket and a hair to left or right, it could be mistaken with throw-i will give you this one. Added during editing:Additionally, up table shots normally have CB close to OB anyway so efficient roll could be lacking.

The shot you have set is what i was talking about, OB close to CB, or in your case the dead ball, it is impossible to get OB behind the pocketed ball enough roll therefore it is going to throw no matter what. I tried hard to set up a template like the one you set up, but OB is say 10 balls or more away from the dead ball? I will highly be surprised if OB to be pocketed throws

I changed role to roll during editing..

Thanks for the reply

 

[ENGLISH!]

Mr. Naji,

Remember our PM conversations.

The physics of the situation are there. You may not percieve them or be able to see them without slow-mo, but they exsist & do not just go away.

If you choose to not pay any attention to them, that is fine & perhaps may even be beneficial. Mike Sigel has been quoted as saying deflection does not exsist. I am fairly sure that he meant that he paid no particular attention to it & therefore it does not exsist, in his mind. I have done the same thing for 46 years. However, now, because of TOI my mind is focussed on 'deflection'. It is there now & it was for 46 years, even though it was not in my mind during that time.

Best Regards,

 

[naji]

Mr. Naji,

Remember our PM conversations.

The physics of the situation are there. You may not percieve them or be able to see them without slow-mo, but they exsist & do not just go away.

If you choose to not pay any attention to them, that is fine & perhaps may even be beneficial. Mike Sigel has been quoted as saying deflection does not exsist. I am fairly sure that he meant that he paid no particular attention to it & therefore it does not exsist, in his mind. I have done the same thing for 46 years. However, now, because of TOI my mind is focussed on 'deflection'. It is there now & it was for 46 years, even though it was not in my mind during that time.

Best Regards,

Physics of the situation is based on some assumptions, and at times we inject a constant here and there to make calculations, it works for theoretical aspect, but actual physics is different.
I stand by my conclusion, like Mike S, there will be no considerable throw on a 9 x 4.5 table to effect pocketing, if CB is rolling efficiently meaning completed at least two to three or more revelations (either forward rolling top, backward rolling draw, or rolling with sides, top or bottom) in the way to OB, at time of contact of OB, hit with speed, and standard pool equipment conditions (OB, CB fairly clean, cloth normal not two dirty and no dents on cloth or OBs..etc same as conditions of equipment at last day of big tournament play). To add to that i do play on this assumption and it works very well, you just got to get the heart to shoot those shots hard enough-key word.

I am hoping to get my new template to prove it, i will be first one to admit failure to all.

Thanks for reply.

 

[ENGLISH!]

Physics of the situation is based on some assumptions, and at times we inject a constant here and there to make calculations, it works for theoretical aspect, but actual physics is different.
I stand by my conclusion, like Mike S, there will be no considerable throw on a 9 x 4.5 table to effect pocketing, if CB is rolling efficiently meaning completed at least two to three or more revelations in the way to OB, at time of contact of OB, hit with speed, and standard pool equipment conditions (OB, CB fairly clean, cloth normal not two dirty and no dents on cloth or OBs..etc same as conditions of equipment at last day of big tournament play). To add to that i do play on this assumption and it works very well, you just got to get the heart to shoot those shots hard enough-key word.

I am hoping to get my new template to prove it, i will be first one to admit failure to all.

Thanks for reply.

Mr. Naji,

I thought you heard the friction of the two(2) clean, dry balls rubbing together.:wink:

How do you make that friction disappear?

Please keep in mind I & I think Dr. Dave are not saying that the effect is huge by any means but it is still there & you can not truely simply say that it it does not exist in reality. It does exist.

If its' exisitence is not causeing you to mis balls, then that is great & as I told you earlier I would suggest that you change nothing. But, as I also told you, if a mis does pop up, you might want to keep its' existence in mind for the next time you have that shot.

Best Regards,

 

[naji]

Mr. Naji,

I thought you heard the friction of the two(2) clean, dry balls rubbing together.:wink:

How do you make that friction disappear?

Please keep in mind I & I think Dr. Dave are not saying that the effect is huge by any means but it is still there & you can not truely simply say that it it does not exist in reality. It does exist.

If its' exisitence is not causeing you to mis balls, then that is great & as I told you earlier I would suggest that you change nothing. But, as I also told you, if a mis does pop up, you might want to keep its' existence in mind for the next time you have that shot.

Best Regards,

DR. Dave said if pockets are small it will effect pocketing, i say not on 9x4.5 unless the shooter is not aiming at most open side of pocket. I am going to a snooker table next couple of days and try, i will let you know.

I will PM you a question. Thanks.

 

[dr_dave]

DR. Dave said if pockets are small it will effect pocketing, i say not on 9x4.5 unless the shooter is not aiming at most open side of pocket. I am going to a snooker table next couple of days and try, i will let you know.

Did you have a chance to try your experiments yet? If so, what did you find?

FYI, I did a set of experiments many years ago attempting to measure the differences in throw for shots with stun, topspin, and bottom spin. You might be interested in the results, which are described here:

"Throw - Part III: follow and draw effects" - BD, October, 2006​

Regards,
Dave

 

[naji]

Did you have a chance to try your experiments yet? If so, what did you find?

FYI, I did a set of experiments many years ago attempting to measure the differences in throw for shots with stun, topspin, and bottom spin. You might be interested in the results, which are described here:

"Throw - Part III: follow and draw effects" - BD, October, 2006​

Regards,
Dave

Thanks Dr. Dave for reply. I went to the pool hall and the only snooker table was taken. I could not set up the template where OB is far from a dead ball to ensure roll before contact. I looked at your document, still have issue with throw amount with large angles for draw and top. 0.9 degrees for 30 degree cut (about 1/2 a ball width miss roughly for 8' shot??) is reasonable if the shooter did not have efficient extreme roll of CB or enough speed, since OB&CB are close together with OB is up table-shooting down table, but, IMO one can achieve 0.1 or 0.2 degrees. Obviously one would say stroke errors, or aim errors could be big factor for up table shots. One has to try and experiment when their focus is at its best to rule out aim errors. Will re visit later.

 

[Straightpool_99]

............

 

[dr_dave]

Thanks Dr. Dave for reply. I went to the pool hall and the only snooker table was taken. I could not set up the template where OB is far from a dead ball to ensure roll before contact. I looked at your document, still have issue with throw amount with large angles for draw and top. 0.9 degrees for 30 degree cut (about 1/2 a ball width miss roughly for 8' shot??) is reasonable if the shooter did not have efficient extreme roll of CB or enough speed, since OB&CB are close together with OB is up table-shooting down table, but, IMO one can achieve 0.1 or 0.2 degrees. Obviously one would say stroke errors, or aim errors could be big factor for up table shots. One has to try and experiment when their focus is at its best to rule out aim errors. Will re visit later.

Please report back if and when you do a careful experiment.

Concerning the distance between the CB and OB, that does not need to be factor. It is easy to hit the CB high enough to create immediate roll. For more info, see:

natural roll, maximum offset, and overspin​

In other words, complete follow can be created at any CB-OB distance (assuming you can avoid a double hit).

Regards,
Dave

 

[dr_dave]

I'm certainly not going to argue physics with doctor Dave. However I do feel that a very important aspect is being overlooked. When shooting hard the cueball is bouncing (since the cue is almost never completely level). Therefore it does not strike the object ball at the perceived contact point, but a tiny bit "thinner". If you ever practised jump shots you will know what I mean.

This comes up all the time in straightpool when back cutting the classic top spin breakshot. If you dont aim to undercut this shot (playing with hard speed) you WILL overcut the shot. In my experience this is how I and others at my level typically miss these shots. Since you are hitting the edge of the object ball jumping over the equator means you hit the ball thinner. Look at the ball and be convinced.

Excellent point. This could certainly be a factor at fast-speed force-follow shots at close CB-OB distances.

If people are curious about the effect, I have some info and demonstrations here:

follow shot ball hop
jump shot overcut effect​

Good post,
Dave