entry fees+added money-TD fee-greens fee=really?

cleary said:
Krupa, the part that I don't understand and is why a room would add $2000, then instantly take $1400 back for green fees of their own money. They're paying the green fees themselves. So what's the point?
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If the room is the one adding the money, then yeah it's a little fuzzy. But if you assume that regardless of any money added, the room is going to get its green fees, the prize fund still has $2000 more than it would. From the perspective of the room, though they're only out $600.

In general, though, "added money" could come from anywhere right? Local businesses and other sponsors and stuff.
 
After you all open your own rooms and run your own tournaments, you will begin to understand.

Roger
 
cleary said:
It would still be shady to pretend to add money.
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You are absolutely correct. It all has to be stated up front before the players pay their entry fees so they know what to expect.

If nothing is stated up front, then they are misleading the players.
 
To me, I don't care how they split up my entry fee. I never enter a tournament because of the advertised prize money, I know it can be misleading. Doesn't really bother me, but I can see how it would be a concern to others.

Not to derail the thread, but if I was gonna complain, I'd ***** about some of the formats. Many times the random drawing is only random AFTER they map out the top seeds from top to bottom. So all the best players start out knowing they don't have to face each other in the early rounds. (As we all know, spot or no spot, better players usually have the advantage to begin with.) I think these players should take their chances in the drawing like everybody else.
 
Aside from the payouts, what really upset me the first time I encountered it was this EXTENDED RACE in the finals of a double-elimination tournament. I think that sucks.

That means the guy who makes it through the winner's side never gets a chance to lose a match, like every single other player in the tournament does.

Not fair, but yet this is standard operating procedure in most double-elimination tournaments.
 
Wow...

Not even sure I know what to think about this thread...

I'm NOT a room owner, but I'm a captain in a couple of leagues and helping a room owner currently set up an in-house league starting this month... so we've had extensive conversations...

Additionally, I was reading this thread this morning,
http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=347728

and Maniac's initial reply resonated.... so, this is gonna be long, but bear with me...

1) any advertising is always difficult to produce. First, you've got to grab their interest, second, yes you must absolutely be truthful, and third it's gotta be short (people just don't want to read). We settled on an advertising flyer and then a detail sheet to layout some of the thinks we were doing specifically.

2) If the tourney is held in a regular pool room, why shouldn't they collect a 'greens fee'?? They've rented the space, heated/cooled it, provided (and hopefully) maintained the tables.... People don't realize that regular play does affect the regular equipment, eventually, new cloth, rails, leveling, repairs etc... If you want to play for 'free' put a table in your home and see how free it is.

3) the OP was presenting a hypothetical... I'd want to see all of the advertising, and tourney sign-up paperwork before making a statement regarding if it was false advertising. Did they say $2000 added and then in the fine print on your sign up form, give you all the details??? I dunno...

4) I think running a tournament and dealing with the rules questions, problem people (and yes every single one has them) and the million things that goes wrong deserves some compensation. There are always overhead fees... It is not often you find people who are independently wealthy who can give of their time without any compensation over and over... Was it an appropriate amount?? Again, I don't know the going rate... Was the TD required to be there before and after (was it more than a 2 day commitment), did they need a motel, food, don't know/don't care... they got paid an amount for a job, and as long as they did that job.... no problem...

Finally, Open and transparent accounting is a wonderful thing... in my professional life I am exceptionally careful not only of what I do, but the appearances of what I do... I might not do the advertising the way they did, but they have to look themselves in the mirror every day. Many people on this thread are making assumptions (IMO) without knowing everything (from the information provided)... ASSUME is such a bad word... particularly when coupled with expectations.

-Joe

PS. One last thing... you are a customer of a room or a tournament... vote with your feet (and wallet)... have a good time, stay... don't and go somewhere else. Before you say, I don't have any other choices... then be a positive part of the law of supply/demand... obviously if you aren't happy there must be a demand for the kind of room you think should exist, spend your capital and start your own room/tourney... soon you'll be swimming in the green :-)
 
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Spell it all out!

I think the finer points of any event should be spelled out in detail, especially when it concerns money.

I don't believe anyone minds paying a small green fee for the privilege of playing in a pool event.

I consider green fees like pool time. If I play in a two day event a $20 green fee is quite acceptable, PROVIDING it is put in the flyer advertisement.

Not mentioning:
TOUR FEES
GREEN FEES
TOURNAMENT DIRECTOR FEES
OR ANY OTHER FEES.
Is not fair to the players.

Also, using the word "GUARANTEED" $X,XXX.XX without saying anything else is not fair either.

It swells me up when you find out at a later date that the "GUARANTEED" refers to ALL of the money paid out in the TOURNAMENT PURSE and the CALCUTTA MONEY.

That being said, if you're going to say GUARANTEED added money, then you should say GUARANTEED no matter how many people show up OR GUARANTEED added if XX number of players. And you may as well say that the GUARANTEED ADDED MONEY BASED UPON SO MANY PLAYERS will be "PRORATED" if less than XX number of players.

For the most part, tournament promoters are doing themselves a disservice by hiding any of the things having to do with money. They are also doing themselves a disservice if they don't say GUARANTEED $XXXX REGARDLESS OF HOW MANY PLAYERS SHOW UP.

The GUARANTEE ADDED IF SO MANY PLAYERS SHOWS UP, can cause some players to stay home because they fear that the added money might be much smaller than they can justify.

Some of the tournaments where I play at, have NO GREEN FEES, NO TOUR FEES, NO TOURNAMENT DIRECTOR FEES, and THEY ADD GUARANTEED ADDED MONEY no matter how many people show up AND sometimes, there isn't even an entry fee. :yes: I'm spoiled, I know.

I designed an easy to use, fill in the blank, MS Word Template for tournament directors to use to make sure they put all of the important information on the flyer or to use the template as a flyer. I can't upload the .docx file to AZB but the info is as follows:

POOL TOURNAMENT FLYER

HOST of tournament:
GAME (s):
WHEN (date):
WHERE: (full address)

START TIME OF TOURNAMENT:
CALCUTTA: START TIME OF CALCUTTA:

DOUBLE ELIMINATION: SINGLE ELIMINATION:
OTHER (DETAIL):

RACE TO ON WINNER’S SIDE:
RACE TO ON ONE-LOSS SIDE:

TABLE(coin operated – how much- who pays):
TABLE(brand & size): NUMBER of tables:

MAXIMUM NUMBER OF PLAYERS:

CONTACT PERSON: PHONE NUMBER:
E-MAIL address: (When emailing or calling please provide your e-mail so that we may keep you informed of future events.:

ADDED MONEY: BASED UPON A FIELD OF :
GUARANTEED PAYOUT: BASED UPON A FIELD OF :

ENTRY FEE: GREEN FEE: TOUR FEE: OTHER FEES - (DETAIL):
PAYOUT TOURNAMENT percentage of field -(DETAIL):
PAYOUT CALCUTTA percentage of field - (DETAIL):

General Rules:
EXCEPTIONS (JUMP CUES, 3 FOUL RULE ETC.)

ALCOHOL: HOTEL INFO:
DRESS CODE: SMOKING: ACTION:
OTHER (drivers license I.D. required):

JoeyA
 
And don't take ANY GD money out of the Calcutta or Entry Fees unless it says so on the flyer. :angry::angry::angry:

JoeyA
 
JoeyA said:
And don't take ANY GD money out of the Calcutta or Entry Fees unless it says so on the flyer. :angry::angry::angry:

JoeyA
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I think my biggest beef is I just don't see the point.

A lot of people keep saying, "the room should get greens fees" and that's cool, get that. But they arn't getting greens fees from the players, they're getting them from themselves. How does that make any sense?

It's like betting yourself $1000. You're only paying yourself.
 
Almost

JoeyA... I almost agree with you...

All of those details should be spelled out in the detailed information available to anyone BEFORE they sign up for an event .... it's the fine print on a contract...

Flyers are advertising/promotional materials designed to catch your attention and investigate. They absolutely shouldn't be false advertising... but never include all of the details you may want .

As I said, we're talking about a hypothetical here... let the OP post the original links, flyers, sign-up material... then lets beat up the tournament promoter/owner etc...

-Joe
 
cleary said:
I think my biggest beef is I just don't see the point.

A lot of people keep saying, "the room should get greens fees" and that's cool, get that. But they arn't getting greens fees from the players, they're getting them from themselves. How does that make any sense?

It's like betting yourself $1000. You're only paying yourself.
Click to expand...

I equate it to purchasing an automobile. When you go to a car dealer these days, they say, "We'll give you $3,000 rebate and 5 percent financing and you don't have to put anything down," or, "We'll give you zero percent financing and zero rebate and you have to put $10,000 down." What's the difference? They just move the numbers around to be confusing. :o
 
Does anyone know if "donating" money to a tournament's prize fund is somehow tax deductible? Or if not deductible, differently taxed? If so, I think that explains it all right there.
 
cleary said:
I think my biggest beef is I just don't see the point.

A lot of people keep saying, "the room should get greens fees" and that's cool, get that. But they arn't getting greens fees from the players, they're getting them from themselves. How does that make any sense?

It's like betting yourself $1000. You're only paying yourself.
Click to expand...

I think you are drawing an unreasonable distinction between a room owner sponsoring his own tournament and an outsider adding money or running the tournament at a host room.

The key here--besides full disclosure-- is that two tournaments that are functionally the same for the player should look the same to the player.

Suppose a private company and the US postal service each offer a job loading trucks for $15/hour. In either case your take-home check is less because you pay $3/hour in taxes. These jobs are functionally the same. If we required the postal-service to advertise their job as a $12/hour job arguing that they--the federal government--were keeping the $3/hour in taxes, then two jobs that really are the same would look different.

You seem not to be arguing that a green fee is unreasonable. But you seem to be arguing that it should just be treated as an in-kind donation to the players. One problem with that is that now your tournament at a glance doesn't look as good as the one in the next town, even though it IS as good.
 
cleary said:
I think my biggest beef is I just don't see the point.

A lot of people keep saying, "the room should get greens fees" and that's cool, get that. But they arn't getting greens fees from the players, they're getting them from themselves. How does that make any sense?

It's like betting yourself $1000. You're only paying yourself.
Click to expand...

They do it so they can have a tournament.

As long as its in print up front so anyone interested can do the math before going to the event its fair IMO. If enough people decide it sucks and do not show up that practice will stop. Down side is so will the tournament probably.

More people will show up for tournaments billed as money added that really are not than would show up if someone just said "No money added but we won't charge for the tables". Its word games to capitalize on the fetish people have for free money. My only problem is when its not stated up front how it works.
 
mikepage said:
You seem not to be arguing that a green fee is unreasonable. But you seem to be arguing that it should just be treated as an in-kind donation to the players. One problem with that is that now your tournament at a glance doesn't look as good as the one in the next town, even though it IS as good.
Click to expand...

Not at all. I'm not saying a green fee is unreasonable. In fact, I'm not paying green fees, the room is paying them for me and calling it "added money". I'm simply saying adding money then taking it back is misleading.
 
If you really stop to think about it, the problem isn't with how it is advertised, greens fee and tournament director fees taken out, etc.. The root cause problem is the sport isn't popular enough to obtain sponsors or TV Coverage that could add significant dollars and make all that minor stuff mostly irrelevant. It isn't even popular enough in most cases to get enough spectators to come through the door and pay for a ticket to view the tournament that would make any significant difference.

Bottom line, the facility hosting the event needs to recover it's cost. It is essentially closing down normal operation to host the tournament. Unless the owner is simply a lover of pool and feeling charitable, that revenue lost by shutting down the tables for the tournament needs to be recovered. As far as $400 mentioned for putting together, organizing and running the tournament, I wouldn't even consider doing that and putting up with the aggravation for 2 or 3 times that amount. With that said, I would do it because I love the sport of pool. But strictly for financial reasons and my time, it would be a joke.
 
It's a marketing ploy that has been used in tournaments for as long as I can remember. I understand what you (Clearly) are saying, why not just say 100% entries paid back with no green fee. Added money just sounds better. Here in the Midwest, most of the tournaments are on the bar tables. The added money is generally is above the the entries but players pay quarters. So, the race, how much are the tables, etc. is a determining factor if the tournament is good or not.
 
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