entry fees+added money-TD fee-greens fee=really?

[JoeyA]

The bottom line is tournament promoters would be doing themselves a favor by making the "numbers" and the way the event is going to be run, spelled out in detail.

If you don't know how to spell it out, get some help. Hiding fees, costs, or moving money around without telling the players IN ADVANCE is a no-no, imo.

If it is spelled out the players can decide for themselves if they want to attend.

I tip my hat to all of the tournament promoters and pool room owners who pay back all of the entry fees, who don't cut the Calcutta money and who add money on top of that.

Those that don't charge green fees or quarters for the tables and TD fees should be crowned and sent to heaven. They have to really love their customers.


JoeyA

 

[bigshooter]

No way should a guy who makes 10 bucks an hour at his day job take $200plus a day running a tournament. Many TDs are taking 20% or more, plus they often get paid entry into their event by the house.
Either the rooms run the boards or a group of regular locals get together to run it as a group . 3 regulars coukd do this. Drawing a board takes 5 minutes, put payouts in envelopes in register and play ball.

Have you ever directed a tournament? From your post I am guessing you have not. It takes many hours before the tournament ever starts for advertising, seeking out sponsors, contacting players, etc.

Then you spend 16 hours a day running the tournament itself.

Then you have the babysitting part of the job since there is always a few idiots that shark, bark and act like idiots. You have to address it.
You may have to make a call on a shot that determines the outcome of the tournament. One or many people may disagree with your call and are now pissed at you.

If your tourney director is making more than 10 bucks an hour he is beating the average in my estimate. Try it out... see how easy it is.

 

[raypoitra]

hmmm

dang some tournament directors get up to 20 percent? man im getting ripped off, lol just kidding . my self or our committee members and help don't get paid. I think everything like added money, guaranteed money, td fees, green fees should be listed on the poster and tournaments shouldnt misrepresent the added money like some tournaments do, some say 25k added then its split between 8 different divisions, but you don't see it on the posters, just says 25k added.

I read a lot of posts on this and I like joey A idea , with all the info listed and I will be in the future listing everything and making it clear to the players what they are paying for and playing for.

 

[raypoitra]

hmm

my plane is down getting repaired can I borrow yours, lol, why people think we making a killing or anything at all putting on tournaments. some of us, including mike do it to keep the game alive and for the players.

Those of us who run tournaments fly our private planes that we bought with green fees and meet up every few months on a private carribbean island that we bought with held-back added money....

thought you guys would never figure it out...

 

[Wags]

In these tournaments, the added money is based on the turnout. For instance, $2000/added based on a full field. So they only add the $2000 if they can instantly take $1400 back. To me, that's just not right.

OK guys, I'm finally going to reveal the dirty secret. First, a bit about me. I have been a teacher, room owner, room manager, retail manager, restaurant manager, pool teacher, entrepreneur for 50 years. For 35 of those working 50 years I have TD/Ref'd literally 1000's of tournaments. (All true).

Mike and Ray, sorry that I haven't been around to visit for awhile. Mike, I was passing through Fargo on NSDU championship Saturday and drove over to say hi but, doggone, even though you have a lot of parking, Fargo Billiards was so-o-o-o full the nearest parking spot I could find was 3+ blocks away. Sorry but I wasn't going to walk in the Arctic winds for that distance so I passed this time. What did you have, like 2000 customers that day? (serious). Ray, sorry that I haven't been that way since it was the Kelly D. Memorial. You have turned the Four Bears event into one of, if not the premier casino event in pool. I'll get out that way again. Thanks to both of you for your contributions to pool.

Now most people think that Mike makes money at Fargo Billiards but that just isn't the case. He actually makes his money by collecting TD and green fees. That amount is far greater than any he can make by having only a few thousand customers in a few days. Once again, everyone knows that Ray is reimbursed by the Casino to the tune of $250,000/pool event/year. And the secret!!!??? Thanks guys for coming to see me every year to my resort and island so we can discuss how we all make/made money doing nothing.

==========

Seriously, Cleary, my first question to you is, "How would you state what you want on a poster so everyone would understand how much the added money would be?" Use your own figures, I'm interested. Added money and green fees are two different items and where the added money comes from and where the green fees go to are two different cans of worms. They cannot be combined.

Anyone who complains about a tournament put on by the pool room (as long as everything is above board), should be put in a "time out" to think about it. Let me give you some things to think about.

If a room adds $2000 in hopes of getting a full 64 player field, the room is taking a gamble that that happens. Using your figure of $1400 returned to the room in green fees, that leaves the room at a loss of $600 immediately. As this is a 2 day event, let's not forget that the room will have virtually no income from table rental on the Saturday (usually the best day for rental). I'll guesstimate, from my experience, on the low side that that loss is about $2,000. So that puts the room a total of $2600 in the hole. I'm not even going to count the poster making, charts, advertising, staffing, etc. dollars and resources that could have been used elsewhere. The room is in the hole for $2600 and drew 64 players for the event and another 36 people that normally wouldn't be there to watch the event.

So...in other words, the room has brought in 100 people to satisfy a $2600 loss. The Stupid guy in the audience says, "That's not such a big deal, they only need to spend $26 per person for two days to make that up. Hell, I spend that in drinks." Sorry stupid guy, it's not that easy. That would be somewhat true if food, beverage and labor were all donated to the room, but, it isn't. Putting the numbers in simplest form, the room needs to sell approximately $10,400 worth of product just to break even on that $2600 loss. That now means that those 100 people need to spend $104 each. C'mon folks, were talking about pool players. When was the last time you spent $52 at your room and it didn't include pool time?

As long as the 4 items that Cleary brought up is clearly stated on the poster/ad, tournament players should be on their hands and knees thanking the room owner and TD for giving (yes, literally giving) a tournament for them to enjoy and participate in.

Sorry this was long but I haven't posted in awhile. Too busy with my island.

 

[Baby Huey]

Last month I posted a thread which was " DCC Show Me The Money." I got blasted for questioning the added money to this prestigious event. Look carefully at any event and evaluate if it's worth your time and effort to attend. Room owners and promoters of events do have the right to make money. Very few run events for the "love of the game." If you look at other types of events such as poker there is no money added. You might get a nice payoff because of the VOLUME of players attending but don't kid yourself it will always be about the host trying to make money directly or indirectly. Poker and Pool Tournaments are alike in that many players go to the event not expecting to win but to play the side games. That is the indirect way to attract players. The other indirect methods of recouping an investment in promoting a tournament have been addressed quite well in the previous threads. The advertising for any event should be clear as to exactly what you are playing for and how much it costs to play. The WSOP takes about 9% off the top of the entry fee's. Some other events take even more. If you play "Sit and Go" tournaments online or in a poker room they take 20% off the top with no added money. So it comes down to promoters just being open about what it is you are EXACTLY playing for and then just decide to play or not play.

 

[CreeDo]

Yes... obviously.


Next time you go to dinner and your bill is way more than you expect, don't bother asking for an itemized bill... just pay it, the waiters need to get to their private jets.

The thing is, the 'bill' for a pool tournament, is it ever "way more than you expect"?
The flyer tells you the entry fee.
It SHOULD tell you the payouts.

So you get exactly what you ordered for the number of dollars you were charged.
You don't concern yourself with "What is their profit margin on this steak?" unless the steak
tasted shitty or is priced wildly different from other steaks.

If a flyer doesn't tell you the payouts (I know a few will do this) then you're pretty much
just guessing and gambling, and shouldn't be surprised by anything.
To torture the analogy, that's like ordering from a menu that just said "meat - $20".

 

[JoeyA]

The thing is, the 'bill' for a pool tournament, is it ever "way more than you expect"?
The flyer tells you the entry fee.
It SHOULD tell you the payouts.

So you get exactly what you ordered for the number of dollars you were charged.
You don't concern yourself with "What is their profit margin on this steak?" unless the steak
tasted shitty or is priced wildly different from other steaks.

If a flyer doesn't tell you the payouts (I know a few will do this) then you're pretty much
just guessing and gambling, and shouldn't be surprised by anything.
To torture the analogy, that's like ordering from a menu that just said "meat - $20".

No you don't concern yourself with the profit margin of the steak, but they menu should at least tell you if the salad is À la carte or if dessert is included. If either of these two items is omitted, then we expect to pay extra for them. The absence of information about fees of ANY KIND, as well as how the money is dispersed and if the added money is going to change because of some unannounced charges is at least poor business, imo.

We're not going to pool tournaments to eat a meal but if you're going to use a menu and eating out as a reference, we need a menu for pool tournaments that spells out everything.

JoeyA

JoeyA

 

[raypoitra]

i wish we did get 250,000

$250,000.00 for an event? lol. I wish,,,a lot of people think the committee of the Kelly demeray/4bears classic gets paid. no one gets paid we are still doing this tournament because we want to do something, no one gets paid. we all volunteer our time as they did when it was the Kelly demeray tournament, the casino donates 20k each year. they don't run the tournament and its not a casino ran event.



re

OK guys, I'm finally going to reveal the dirty secret. First, a bit about me. I have been a teacher, room owner, room manager, retail manager, restaurant manager, pool teacher, entrepreneur for 50 years. For 35 of those working 50 years I have TD/Ref'd literally 1000's of tournaments. (All true).

Mike and Ray, sorry that I haven't been around to visit for awhile. Mike, I was passing through Fargo on NSDU championship Saturday and drove over to say hi but, doggone, even though you have a lot of parking, Fargo Billiards was so-o-o-o full the nearest parking spot I could find was 3+ blocks away. Sorry but I wasn't going to walk in the Arctic winds for that distance so I passed this time. What did you have, like 2000 customers that day? (serious). Ray, sorry that I haven't been that way since it was the Kelly D. Memorial. You have turned the Four Bears event into one of, if not the premier casino event in pool. I'll get out that way again. Thanks to both of you for your contributions to pool.

Now most people think that Mike makes money at Fargo Billiards but that just isn't the case. He actually makes his money by collecting TD and green fees. That amount is far greater than any he can make by having only a few thousand customers in a few days. Once again, everyone knows that Ray is reimbursed by the Casino to the tune of $250,000/pool event/year. And the secret!!!??? Thanks guys for coming to see me every year to my resort and island so we can discuss how we all make/made money doing nothing.

==========

Seriously, Cleary, my first question to you is, "How would you state what you want on a poster so everyone would understand how much the added money would be?" Use your own figures, I'm interested. Added money and green fees are two different items and where the added money comes from and where the green fees go to are two different cans of worms. They cannot be combined.

Anyone who complains about a tournament put on by the pool room (as long as everything is above board), should be put in a "time out" to think about it. Let me give you some things to think about.

If a room adds $2000 in hopes of getting a full 64 player field, the room is taking a gamble that that happens. Using your figure of $1400 returned to the room in green fees, that leaves the room at a loss of $600 immediately. As this is a 2 day event, let's not forget that the room will have virtually no income from table rental on the Saturday (usually the best day for rental). I'll guesstimate, from my experience, on the low side that that loss is about $2,000. So that puts the room a total of $2600 in the hole. I'm not even going to count the poster making, charts, advertising, staffing, etc. dollars and resources that could have been used elsewhere. The room is in the hole for $2600 and drew 64 players for the event and another 36 people that normally wouldn't be there to watch the event.

So...in other words, the room has brought in 100 people to satisfy a $2600 loss. The Stupid guy in the audience says, "That's not such a big deal, they only need to spend $26 per person for two days to make that up. Hell, I spend that in drinks." Sorry stupid guy, it's not that easy. That would be somewhat true if food, beverage and labor were all donated to the room, but, it isn't. Putting the numbers in simplest form, the room needs to sell approximately $10,400 worth of product just to break even on that $2600 loss. That now means that those 100 people need to spend $104 each. C'mon folks, were talking about pool players. When was the last time you spent $52 at your room and it didn't include pool time?

As long as the 4 items that Cleary brought up is clearly stated on the poster/ad, tournament players should be on their hands and knees thanking the room owner and TD for giving (yes, literally giving) a tournament for them to enjoy and participate in.

Sorry this was long but I haven't posted in awhile. Too busy with my island.

 

[ironman]

The bottom line is tournament promoters would be doing themselves a favor by making the "numbers" and the way the event is going to be run, spelled out in detail.

If you don't know how to spell it out, get some help. Hiding fees, costs, or moving money around without telling the players IN ADVANCE is a no-no, imo.

If it is spelled out the players can decide for themselves if they want to attend.

I tip my hat to all of the tournament promoters and pool room owners who pay back all of the entry fees, who don't cut the Calcutta money and who add money on top of that.

Those that don't charge green fees or quarters for the tables and TD fees should be crowned and sent to heaven. They have to really love their customers.


JoeyA

I suppose they should be crowned but it would be silly.nobody does anything for nothing.

 

[JoeyA]

Buffalo Billiards • Metairie, Lousiana

I suppose they should be crowned but it would be silly.nobody does anything for nothing.

My pool room owner doesn't charge a green fee or any other fee for their monthly tournament or their weekly tournament.

He runs the tournament himself so he doesn't pay a tournament director either.

I've asked him about that and he said he likes to see the players get as much money in their pocket as he can afford.

JoeyA

 

[JoeyA]

$250,000.00 for an event? lol. I wish,,,a lot of people think the committee of the Kelly demeray/4bears classic gets paid. no one gets paid we are still doing this tournament because we want to do something, no one gets paid. we all volunteer our time as they did when it was the Kelly demeray tournament, the casino donates 20k each year. they don't run the tournament and its not a casino ran event.



re

The 4 Bears Casino event in New Town, North Dakota is a FUN tournament for all concerned. The players seem to be on their best behavior for the most part and it is well run and you can win some serious money in their tournaments.

A lot of big name players show up, but they don't always win. :wink:

JoeyA

 

[cleary]

The thing is, the 'bill' for a pool tournament, is it ever "way more than you expect"?
The flyer tells you the entry fee.
It SHOULD tell you the payouts.

So you get exactly what you ordered for the number of dollars you were charged.
You don't concern yourself with "What is their profit margin on this steak?" unless the steak
tasted shitty or is priced wildly different from other steaks.

If a flyer doesn't tell you the payouts (I know a few will do this) then you're pretty much
just guessing and gambling, and shouldn't be surprised by anything.
To torture the analogy, that's like ordering from a menu that just said "meat - $20".

To be clear, there are no posters/flyers about the tournaments. It's a local tour with a website. Nothing about what I've said is stated on their site or anything else. Nothing is disclosed unless you ask them about why it seems short.

 

[Wags]

I suppose they should be crowned but it would be silly.nobody does anything for nothing.

I think that is a bit pessimistic, especially if you are talking a monetary gain. As Ray just posted, he and the committee have been doing this for many years without any type of gain except to just say that they did it. Mike, the same way. Both of these fine people are pool ambassadors simply because they love the game and are in a position to nudge it along. It might come back to them, but definitely, as in another thread, they are both paying forward.

I also am paying forward this weekend by TDing a special tournament for the fat fee of ZERO. I just like doing it and want to see this tour get off on the right foot.

 

[Cuemaster98]

Really don't understand the point of this thread. Room add 2K on top of everything based on the field....the rest of the fees stay the same. How is the 2K any less? Still 2K more than if they didn't add.

As already point out by most, the tournament is not a non profit event. People that run it needs to make money, room needs to get their money worth (Marketing cost) to attract new customers.

Steinway Billiard in Queens, NY have been heavily investing in the local pool community. They host countless events/tournaments at a loss to establish/promote their room. I think it's probably one of the best room to play pool right now in US.

I think instead thinking how we can get more money out of the room into the pot, we need to support the room a little more. They can't run tournament at a loss every time and be expected to give more money into the tournament. At end of the day...without the room and work from the TD and their staff...you probably won't have a tournament in the area.

Here's an idea, instead of giving winning player all cash for a tournament, maybe they should be giving a % of the tournament fund as credits to spent on pool time and foods at the room.

Add 2K pool/food credit to the tournaments. Now you're probably thinking...it not really 2K because they make 10% on that 20.00 steak dinner. LOL.

 

[Wags]

Really don't understand the point of this thread. Room add 2K on top of everything based on the field....the rest of the fees stay the same. How is the 2K any less? Still 2K more than if they didn't add.

As already point out by most, the tournament is not a non profit event. People that run it needs to make money, room needs to get their money worth (Marketing cost) to attract new customers.

Steinway Billiard in Queens, NY have been heavily investing in the local pool community. They host countless events/tournaments at a loss to establish/promote their room. I think it's probably one of the best room to play pool right now in US.

I think instead thinking how we can get more money out of the room into the pot, we need to support the room a little more. They can't run tournament at a loss every time and be expected to give more money into the tournament. At end of the day...without the room and work from the TD and their staff...you probably won't have a tournament in the area.

Here's an idea, instead of giving winning player all cash for a tournament, maybe they should be giving a % of the tournament fund as credits to spent on pool time and foods at the room.

Add 2K pool/food credit to the tournaments. Now you're probably thinking...it not really 2K because they make 10% on that 20.00 steak dinner. LOL.[/QUOTE]

Wow, said very nicely. I wonder how your idea would work for the weekly tournaments that are $50 to $200 added and basically for the locals? Thanks for something to explore.

 

[cleary]

Really don't understand the point of this thread. Room add 2K on top of everything based on the field....the rest of the fees stay the same. How is the 2K any less? Still 2K more than if they didn't add.

As already point out by most, the tournament is not a non profit event. People that run it needs to make money, room needs to get their money worth (Marketing cost) to attract new customers.

Steinway Billiard in Queens, NY have been heavily investing in the local pool community. They host countless events/tournaments at a loss to establish/promote their room. I think it's probably one of the best room to play pool right now in US.

I think instead thinking how we can get more money out of the room into the pot, we need to support the room a little more. They can't run tournament at a loss every time and be expected to give more money into the tournament. At end of the day...without the room and work from the TD and their staff...you probably won't have a tournament in the area.

Here's an idea, instead of giving winning player all cash for a tournament, maybe they should be giving a % of the tournament fund as credits to spent on pool time and foods at the room.

Add 2K pool/food credit to the tournaments. Now you're probably thinking...it not really 2K because they make 10% on that 20.00 steak dinner. LOL.

Duc I don't know how to be more clear but apparently you are not understanding the thread because you don't understand the concept.

If you're going to say you're going to add 2000, add 2000. If you're going to say you're going to add 300, then add 300. But don't say you're going to add 2000 and only 300 is added. I'm not complaining that not enough money is added, I'm complaing that one thing is said and another thing is done. You either didn't read this thread before posting or you just are not able to understand.

The room does not benifit by adding money and then taking it back. There are players in the room and they can now sell food/beer, I get that. But keeping things honest goes a lot further with me than the money added.

 

[ironman]

My pool room owner doesn't charge a green fee or any other fee for their monthly tournament or their weekly tournament.

He runs the tournament himself so he doesn't pay a tournament director either.

I've asked him about that and he said he likes to see the players get as much money in their pocket as he can afford.

JoeyA

Well that is rare and good for him/ Not many can run a tournament much less structure one.
I did not think we were talking about weekly torurnaments though. Even if, the more they can pocket. the better for the owner, right?

 

[Cuemaster98]

Hi Cleary,

Maybe I don't understand, but if the room add 2000, how are they only adding 300? Does adding 2000.00 to the pot also mean additional fee? I am thinking that all the fees are already fixed...so adding 2K is 2K additional? Sorry, maybe I'm missing something.

Using your example:
"If a tournament says they (the room) are going to add $2000 for a full field of 64, and they do. And in entry fees the bring in 5,000. 5000+2000=7000. Then, $7000- tournament director fee of $400 (2 day event) is $6600 minus green fees of $1,400 (2 day event) = $5,200 paid out.

So an event that has $2,000 added, really only $200 was added. The rest was added then taken back."

If 2K was not added, you have 5000 - 400 (TD) - 1400 (2 day event)= $3200.00 Paid Out.
If you add 2K, you have 3200 plus 2K added = 5200?

Also, I'm not too sure that the room owner get any green fee back. Eg. For one of the tournament, they give Free Table time plus add 1000.00 in return for a cue they need to sell.

So, I'm just saying the room owner give out a lots to support these tournaments..so to me its not fair to say that they been shady in anyway with money they are adding. I can understand, that the tournament fees and paid out needs to be clarify but saying the room doesn't really give 2K but really only give 300 just doesn't add up for me.

Duc.

Duc I don't know how to be more clear but apparently you are not understanding the thread because you don't understand the concept.

If you're going to say you're going to add 2000, add 2000. If you're going to say you're going to add 300, then add 300. But don't say you're going to add 2000 and only 300 is added. I'm not complaining that not enough money is added, I'm complaing that one thing is said and another thing is done. You either didn't read this thread before posting or you just are not able to understand.

The room does not benifit by adding money and then taking it back. There are players in the room and they can now sell food/beer, I get that. But keeping things honest goes a lot further with me than the money added.

 

[cleary]

Also, I'm not too sure that the room owner get any green fee back. Eg. For one of the tournament, they give Free Table time plus add 1000.00 in return for a cue they need to sell.

Some tournaments do that, and I have no problem with that. Others don't and I think that's messed up. I sent you a PM with the exact numbers from two different local events and it's very easy to see things don't add up.

Maybe I don't have enough "pool player" in me, but I don't understand the logic of giving money and then taking it back. If you give me a 20% off coupon for a cue but charge me 15% more than normal, I'm not saving 20%. My point is, if you don't want me to save 20%, that's fine, just don't give me the coupon.