Ethics of using pre-made parts?

Tommy-D

Tommy-D

World's best B player...
Silver Member
> From what I have read on here over the years,it seems there is some kind of "taboo" about using pre-made points and stuff like Prather's and Cue Components offers. Is this really the case,or am I reading too much into it? I've read where certain people were dogging cuemakers that use the Prather points,if so,why? I can see where it would be bad for some scumbag to be putting together a bunch of these cues and advertising them to be completely "made" by him,but what about using these parts to experiment with different point/wood combinations and construction methods and selling them to recoup the initial costs,and making it clear to the customer that these cues came from pre-made stock? Tommy D.
 
Tommy-D said:
> From what I have read on here over the years,it seems there is some kind of "taboo" about using pre-made points and stuff like Prather's and Cue Components offers. Is this really the case,or am I reading too much into it? I've read where certain people were dogging cuemakers that use the Prather points,if so,why? I can see where it would be bad for some scumbag to be putting together a bunch of these cues and advertising them to be completely "made" by him,but what about using these parts to experiment with different point/wood combinations and construction methods and selling them to recoup the initial costs,and making it clear to the customer that these cues came from pre-made stock? Tommy D.
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What about titlist blanked cues?

Joe
 
> I specifically didn't mention Titlist blanks in this case because I've never heard anyone say anything bad about using Titlist blanks,just Prather's and Cue Components. Tommy D.
 
Tommy-D said:
> I specifically didn't mention Titlist blanks in this case because I've never heard anyone say anything bad about using Titlist blanks,just Prather's and Cue Components. Tommy D.
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Well titlist cues are pre-made and IMHO would be considered a cue part. Personally I don't know what the big deal is, if you look back, there were some great cuemakers that used other cuemakers parts.

Speaking of Prather, at VF this year they had some very good "titlist" home made blanks.

Joe
 
Tommy-D said:
> From what I have read on here over the years,it seems there is some kind of "taboo" about using pre-made points and stuff like Prather's and Cue Components offers. Is this really the case,or am I reading too much into it? I've read where certain people were dogging cuemakers that use the Prather points,if so,why? I can see where it would be bad for some scumbag to be putting together a bunch of these cues and advertising them to be completely "made" by him,but what about using these parts to experiment with different point/wood combinations and construction methods and selling them to recoup the initial costs,and making it clear to the customer that these cues came from pre-made stock? Tommy D.
Click to expand...

If you buy a new Ford Mustang, you will get a "made in America" car, with electronics from Japan & Taiwan. Tires from Italy & God only knows how many other parts from other manufacturers. IT STILL SAYS "FORD" on the car. I don't make my own paint or glue or bumpers or screws, Should I feel obligated to put "DUPONT'S" name next to my "BLACK HEART" logo? The most honored Qmakers in American history, used blanks & shafts from other makers. I can buy the wood, turn it, age it, cut the points, attach it to a handle add the butt sleeve & finish it to a mirror finish. On the other hand if I call Prathers, to buy glue & they tell me they have a 6 point blank in the colors that I need, for an up coming Q, I buy it. They do very good work & if it saves me a lot of time I'm a happy camper. So much is made about using a blank made by another maker. Only a Qmaker will tell you that making a pool Q, is so much more than just a forearm blank. You can take a beautiful blank & totally screw it up, UNLESS YOU ARE A REAL CUEMAKER...JER
 
Charlie Edwards said:
Something else I've noticed is that a Bushka is called a Bushka, no matter which blank he used. A side note identifies the blank. You never hear a Bushka called a ''Titlist conversion".
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Charlie,
IMHO the side note is because the value definately differs depending on where the blank came from.

Joe
 
For me it's a quality issue. A true "custom cue" should be made from the very best materials available. If I buy one of a thousand point blanks from Prather, I can't be sure that it is the very best one that they had. In fact, it could be the WORST one. I have no control over it. If I build the cue from scratch, I control every aspect of the cue and the materials. <--- how it should be, IMO.

That said, If a customer wants a cue built from an existing forearm, or other parts, I will do it in a heartbeat. That's what "custom" is.
 
Sheldon said:
For me it's a quality issue. A true "custom cue" should be made from the very best materials available. If I buy one of a thousand point blanks from Prather, I can't be sure that it is the very best one that they had. In fact, it could be the WORST one. I have no control over it. If I build the cue from scratch, I control every aspect of the cue and the materials. <--- how it should be, IMO.

That said, If a customer wants a cue built from an existing forearm, or other parts, I will do it in a heartbeat. That's what "custom" is.
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I agree with what you state here with the exception of not knowing what you'll get from Praether and since you want only the best you make it yourself. I make almost all of my forearms from scratch, not that I believe mine are better than Praether's but 1. because I want to make as much of my cue myself and not others and 2. because I like mitered veneers where as Praethers are stacked. I wouldn't dare say that my veneered prongs are better than Praether's as I have only made very few hundred of them where as Praether's has made many, many thousands of them. Often if someone wants a more complicated veneered prong I let them know that I can build the same cue, with a Praether constructed prong for a couple hundred dollars cheaper. They make the decision to save a little or not.

As far as just building and selling cues and calling them custom, in my opinion, is false. A custom cue, is built to a purchasers specifications, PERIOD. Any deviations from his specifications then that cue is no longer a custom cue in my book. If a cue maker only builds one cue a year just to sell then that cue is a factory cue. Might be a small factory but never-the-less it certainly isn't a custom cue.

So often, on this forum and others I see cuemakers stating that they build custom cues to their specs and will only deviate from these specs except for weight or something minor like that as they don't want to change the hit of their cue. Well this is fine but don't call them Custom cues as there is nothing custom about them. They are the same as any other factory cue, maybe made better and maybe not but still a factory cue.

Let the fun begin.

Dick
 
The thread of what makes a CUSTOM CUE truely custom, has been hashed out on several other sites. If you build a cue to the customers wishes as far as length, shaft & butt diameter, but won't or can't do the inlays that he wants. Is that still a CUSTOM CUE? Or what if you only build one-of-a-kind cues? Isn't that a CUSTOM? Or what if you let the customer pick the woods, inlays & other materials, but only use your dimensions. Is that CUSTOM? I think there has to be a little leeway in the definition,but that's only me...JER
 
I have used some Prather parts from time to time through the years. Here is how I look at it. If I have a helper in my shop build some parts for me it is still a Hightower cue when finished. If I have a "helper" in Oklahoma make a part for me it is no different except that I was not able to oversee it as much. If someone insists on long v-groove points I make them from scratch in my shop myself. If they want a shorter v-groove point like prather makes and they want the colors of one of the several I have had laying around for years then I will use the Prather blank.
 
rhncue said:
As far as just building and selling cues and calling them custom, in my opinion, is false. A custom cue, is built to a purchasers specifications, PERIOD. Any deviations from his specifications then that cue is no longer a custom cue in my book. If a cue maker only builds one cue a year just to sell then that cue is a factory cue. Might be a small factory but never-the-less it certainly isn't a custom cue.
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I may have mis-worded that a bit, because I totally agree with your definition of custom.
It's like many other definitions though, people will always interpret it differently.

I do not build spec cues, and never have. I will build any taper, weight, length, etc. that a customer could want.
I will not let anyone else work in my shop or touch my machines. It's all me.... :D
 
> I'd like to make clear that in NO way was I implying that cuemakers who use these forearms are less of a cuemaker,or that the cues themselves were less desirable. I just wanted to see what the consensus was on the subject. What I plan to do is after I get a full sized lathe or a Deluxe Cuesmith,is buy a couple of these or some of the really nice Samsara blanks that Atlas sells and experiment with different A joint techniques,among other things,while gradually picking up the machinery,tooling,and concept of making the blanks myself. Tommy D.
 
Points are just one facet

in the myraid of details to making a cue. I have never done points, I am putting together equipment to be able to, I think it is only a mechanical step for any competent craftsman. the secret is accuracy in setting up ones equipment, any half decent machinist would laugh at the technical challenge. It is not mission impossible. I think the only real test is how does the cue play when you finish, and how will it play 10, 20, 30 years from now! The real secret is patience and an anal attention to the many details!
 
rhncue said:
So often, on this forum and others I see cuemakers stating that they build custom cues to their specs and will only deviate from these specs except for weight or something minor like that as they don't want to change the hit of their cue. Well this is fine but don't call them Custom cues as there is nothing custom about them. They are the same as any other factory cue, maybe made better and maybe not but still a factory cue.

Let the fun begin.

Dick
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I guess I will start the fun here. Custom to me can mean one of a kind no matter who decides how it is made. Allowing the customer to make any decision on the cue would make it custom even if it comes from a factory like Viking or Meucci. If it has out of the ordinary features it is custom. If someone makes 20 of one identical design that is not custom to me. But if #19 in the 20 was varied somewhat then #19 would be custom.
Here is the defintion of "Custom-Built" in a small dictionary that came with my encylopedia set: "Built to order or to individual specifications". Built to the customers wishes or built one of a kind from the cuemaker's imagination would fall in the "Custom Built" category. Some might build all their cues to the same size specs, but make them all look different. They would all still be custom. On the other hand, someone might just build plain cues or limited inlay designs over and over and build them all to the customers size specs and that would be Custom also.
Chris
www.cuesmith.com
www.internationalcuemakers.com
 
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I am the only person that works in my shop, and I build my own forearms. But I am limited to the designs that I can inlay into a cue. I have a hightower pantagragh. If a customer insists on something that I can't create then I might suggest to them about using a Prather blank, Although I haven't done it yet.
Also ,my thought, is that I will change weight, lenght +- 1 or 2 inches, and tip size to the customers specs. But the taper and diameter of the butt I do not change. This is what sets my cues apart, and makes them my cues.
If a customer wanted a cue 53 inches long and a 2 inch butt diameter, and then didn't like the way it played, My name would be on it, and you know the customer would say it was my falt for building a cue that felt like a log.What I built would have been his cue NOT mine.
The customer can alter the cues looks with wood selection and inlays, but I still want to control the specs on how the cue is put together and its design. That way I can inshure that it will be a cue that I am glad to put my name on.
Do you think that this is a bad thing?
 
Chris & Cueman(the other Chris), I TOTALLY agree with you. My Qs are ALL one of a kind, even my hustlers. Those to me are CUSTOM. Like I said I cut "V" groove points & inlayed points, but I'm not above using a blank made by someone else to get what I want...JER
 
Chris' Cues said:
If a customer wanted a cue 53 inches long and a 2 inch butt diameter, and then didn't like the way it played, My name would be on it, and you know the customer would say it was my falt for building a cue that felt like a log.What I built would have been his cue NOT mine.
The customer can alter the cues looks with wood selection and inlays, but I still want to control the specs on how the cue is put together and its design. That way I can inshure that it will be a cue that I am glad to put my name on.
Do you think that this is a bad thing?
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I am with you 100%.:)
 
BLACKHEARTCUES said:
If you buy a new Ford Mustang, you will get a "made in America" car, with electronics from Japan & Taiwan. Tires from Italy & God only knows how many other parts from other manufacturers. IT STILL SAYS "FORD" on the car. I don't make my own paint or glue or bumpers or screws, Should I feel obligated to put "DUPONT'S" name next to my "BLACK HEART" logo? The most honored Qmakers in American history, used blanks & shafts from other makers. I can buy the wood, turn it, age it, cut the points, attach it to a handle add the butt sleeve & finish it to a mirror finish. On the other hand if I call Prathers, to buy glue & they tell me they have a 6 point blank in the colors that I need, for an up coming Q, I buy it. They do very good work & if it saves me a lot of time I'm a happy camper. So much is made about using a blank made by another maker. Only a Qmaker will tell you that making a pool Q, is so much more than just a forearm blank. You can take a beautiful blank & totally screw it up, UNLESS YOU ARE A REAL CUEMAKER...JER
Click to expand...

Well said.
 
So often, on this forum and others I see cuemakers stating that they build custom cues to their specs and will only deviate from these specs except for weight or something minor like that as they don't want to change the hit of their cue. Well this is fine but don't call them Custom cues as there is nothing custom about them.

Sorry Dick, but where do you draw the line?
Someone comes in to your shop and says he wants a cue with a .840 joint and 1.220" at the bottom, straight taper b/c he thinks it's pretty that way.
Someone comes in to your shop and wants a Meucci taper from tip to bumper, what do you do?:eek:
 
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