Ethics of using pre-made parts?

[RSB-Refugee]

So often, on this forum and others I see cuemakers stating that they build custom cues to their specs and will only deviate from these specs except for weight or something minor like that as they don't want to change the hit of their cue. Well this is fine but don't call them Custom cues as there is nothing custom about them.

Sorry Dick, but where do you draw the line?
Someone comes in to your shop and says he wants a cue with a .840 joint and 1.220" at the bottom, straight taper b/c he thinks it's pretty that way.
Someone comes in to your shop and wants a Meucci taper from tip to bumper, what do you do?

I understand what you are saying Joey, but here is another side to consider.

An often heard, or read question is, 'How's the hit of so & so's cues?'. I feel if a cuemaker is all over the place, when it comes to tapers and "hits", he is doing himself a disservice. There are so many different tastes, as far as style of hit is concerned.

Common advice given to people looking to get a cue, is to try out as many different cues as possible, until you find one that just feels right, then order that cuemaker's cue. What good would this advice be, if the cuemaker has no defined, consistant hit from cue to cue?

Tracy

 

[JoeyInCali]

I understand what you are saying Joey, but here is another side to consider.

An often heard, or read question is, 'How's the hit of so & so's cues?'. I feel if a cuemaker is all over the place, when it comes to tapers and "hits", he is doing himself a disservice. There are so many different tastes, as far as style of hit is concerned.

Common advice given to people looking to get a cue, is to try out as many different cues as possible, until you find one that just feels right, then order that cuemaker's cue. What good would this advice be, if the cuemaker has no defined, consistant hit from cue to cue?

Tracy

Exactly.

 

[rhncue]

So often, on this forum and others I see cuemakers stating that they build custom cues to their specs and will only deviate from these specs except for weight or something minor like that as they don't want to change the hit of their cue. Well this is fine but don't call them Custom cues as there is nothing custom about them.

Sorry Dick, but where do you draw the line?
Someone comes in to your shop and says he wants a cue with a .840 joint and 1.220" at the bottom, straight taper b/c he thinks it's pretty that way.
Someone comes in to your shop and wants a Meucci taper from tip to bumper, what do you do?

I always tell people what my prefferances are and the reasons for them and if that's not what they want then I do EXACTLY what they ask for. As a matter of fact I've got a cue I'm going to start spraying tomorrow that has a Meucci taper on the butt, .830 joint 1.300 butt.

Most factory cues built in this country are built great. They'll last many years. They have many designs and as far as I'm concerned, they are a great value. Why then are there Custom Cue Makers? The reason is so that a buyer can purchase a cue with tangents they cannot find in a factory cue. Henceforth they are willing to pay three, four or even five times the price of a factory cue to get what they want from a Custom Cue Builder.

Factory cues have a minimum mark up of 100%. If the retail price for a factory cue is 200.00 then wholesale is 75 to a 100.00. Companies like Joss, Mcdermott, Pechauer and such would not have been in business for this many years if they put out a bad product yet they can make their bottom end cues for 75 to 100.00 and still make a profit. The big cue makers have 500,000 to a 1,000,000.00 in their finishing systems, Their machines are set to cut wood parts perfectly every time. The fit and finish on most factory cues is impeccable. Just how do they do this? By making everthing standard they can make many cues very cheaply. What's the draw back to these cues? Just one, changing any parameter in size or tolerances is very time consuming and costly.

This is where Custom cue-makers come in. They can build cues to an individuals specs for about the same price as using their own specs. They can build a cue to what the man needs instead of what someone else feels like making.

As far as I'm concerned you have factory made cues with set specs, you have Custom cue builders who build Custom cues for an individual and you have individuals or small shops making factory cues at their own specs but at three to five times the price of a larger, better equipped factory.

Dick

 

[billfishhead]

where go you draw the line ? if you use a mill, then do you have to make your own templates ?

 

[SpiderWeb]

I understand what you are saying Joey, but here is another side to consider.

An often heard, or read question is, 'How's the hit of so & so's cues?'. I feel if a cuemaker is all over the place, when it comes to tapers and "hits", he is doing himself a disservice. There are so many different tastes, as far as style of hit is concerned.

Common advice given to people looking to get a cue, is to try out as many different cues as possible, until you find one that just feels right, then order that cuemaker's cue. What good would this advice be, if the cuemaker has no defined, consistant hit from cue to cue?

Tracy

Some cue maklers cues go through many changes through the years in house because they strive to make a better cue and change things from time to time, so the cues will be different without any after market parts.

 

[BeornLS]

Tommy,

I really don't see anything wrong with using "pre-made" parts. I think that seems to be the general consensus shown so far in this thread. Being able to buy nice forearms and entire butt blanks helps give people like me the opportunity to build much nicer cues than what I would normally be capable of given my limited experience. Granted though, I am learning, so maybe someday when I have the time and the room (a 5' x 12' shop gets small...quick) I will learn more and obtain better equipment to start making my own high quality blanks. But in the meantime I do want to turn out some nice sneaky pete style cues with jointwork, I do want to turn out some 4 and 6 point cues with veneers, so I'll call Prather or Cuecomponents and place my orders or whoever and place my orders, and I also enjoy making plain jane type cues with no points.

Jeff

 

[rhncue]

I understand what you are saying Joey, but here is another side to consider.

An often heard, or read question is, 'How's the hit of so & so's cues?'. I feel if a cuemaker is all over the place, when it comes to tapers and "hits", he is doing himself a disservice. There are so many different tastes, as far as style of hit is concerned.

Common advice given to people looking to get a cue, is to try out as many different cues as possible, until you find one that just feels right, then order that cuemaker's cue. What good would this advice be, if the cuemaker has no defined, consistant hit from cue to cue?

Tracy

You are exactly right, most cue-makers strive to attain a special hit. They also hope that others like this hit and will purchase a cue from them. Of coarse all of the factories do the same thing. Generally, Meucci's hit like Meucci's, Mcdermott's hit like Mcdermott's, Joss's like Joss's and so forth.

If you are building cues that are built to your specs. then how is this any different than any other factory cue, other than it's not built as efficiently so it costs more?

In the restaurant trade the main commitment is consistantcey. Every time you go to McDonalds the cheeseburgers taste the same as the last time you were there, same with fries and so forth. You know what to expect and are not surprised by a different tasting cheeseburger every time you go. This is good BUT having consistant cues is the same as having consistant cheeseburgers, they are not custom. If you want a custom cheeseburger then you go to a full service restaurant where you can get your cheeseburger made the way you want it. Of coarse these cheeseburgers are more expensive than McDonalds but you can get what you want, not what McDonalds want's you to have.

I've got nothing bad at all to say about cue-makers building cues to their own specs. I've found many that hit very good and are quite inovative in their design. It's calling them Custom Cues that I don't agree with. I, also, like my own specs and try to persuade customers to have their cues built the way I like but in the end it is their money, it's going to be their cue and it's going to be built the way they want it in my shop, if possible.

Dick

 

[MVPCues]

You are exactly right, most cue-makers strive to attain a special hit. They also hope that others like this hit and will purchase a cue from them. Of coarse all of the factories do the same thing. Generally, Meucci's hit like Meucci's, Mcdermott's hit like Mcdermott's, Joss's like Joss's and so forth.

If you are building cues that are built to your specs. then how is this any different than any other factory cue, other than it's not built as efficiently so it costs more?

In the restaurant trade the main commitment is consistantcey. Every time you go to McDonalds the cheeseburgers taste the same as the last time you were there, same with fries and so forth. You know what to expect and are not surprised by a different tasting cheeseburger every time you go. This is good BUT having consistant cues is the same as having consistant cheeseburgers, they are not custom. If you want a custom cheeseburger then you go to a full service restaurant where you can get your cheeseburger made the way you want it. Of coarse these cheeseburgers are more expensive than McDonalds but you can get what you want, not what McDonalds want's you to have.

I've got nothing bad at all to say about cue-makers building cues to their own specs. I've found many that hit very good and are quite inovative in their design. It's calling them Custom Cues that I don't agree with. I, also, like my own specs and try to persuade customers to have their cues built the way I like but in the end it is their money, it's going to be their cue and it's going to be built the way they want it in my shop, if possible.

Dick

Well, I will add a question/comment to the mix. No offense intended at all. I just want to break down your definition by comparison.

Dick, If I commission you to build me a cue with wood X as the forearm, wood Y as the handle, and wood z as the sleeve, with inlays made of wood Q, but I feel you are the best judge of what specs you should use, so you use your normal specs, is that a custom cue? You say you "like my own specs and try to persuade customers to have their cues built the way I like". When you succeed at this persuasion, is the cue you make NOT a custom cue? Are the only custom cues you make when you fail to persuade the customer and he wants different specs?

If I went to another cuemaker to have the same exact cue built, and that cuemaker does not deviate from his specs, and again that was fine with me, is the cue he makes NOT a custom cue but yours would be because you were willing to use different specs (even though you didn't!) and he was not?, or are they both custom cues? or are neither of them custom cues?

Kelly

 

[rhncue]

Well, I will add a question/comment to the mix. No offense intended at all. I just want to break down your definition by comparison.

Dick, If I commission you to build me a cue with wood X as the forearm, wood Y as the handle, and wood z as the sleeve, with inlays made of wood Q, but I feel you are the best judge of what specs you should use, so you use your normal specs, is that a custom cue? You say you "like my own specs and try to persuade customers to have their cues built the way I like". When you succeed at this persuasion, is the cue you make NOT a custom cue? Are the only custom cues you make when you fail to persuade the customer and he wants different specs?

If I went to another cuemaker to have the same exact cue built, and that cuemaker does not deviate from his specs, and again that was fine with me, is the cue he makes NOT a custom cue but yours would be because you were willing to use different specs (even though you didn't!) and he was not?, or are they both custom cues? or are neither of them custom cues?

Kelly

I believe they would both be custom cues as they were built to specs you both agreed to whether or not you originally came up with them. When the product (cue) is finished it is exactly as you commissioned. Also, If you and six of your buddies came in with you and all ordered cues exactly alike then all of these would be Custom cues for these purchasers.

Some parameters, of coarse, cannot be met and when this occurs you explain why to the customer and he and you can agree to different specs or you just let them know it can't be built. I had one customer who wanted a gabon ebony cue with a steel joint weigh 15 oz. I told him no way. I normally don't make sharp inlays. I use a 1/32 cutter and feel that is good enough for the price I charge and the customers that I sell most of my cues to. If a customer insists on sharp inlays I jack up my price enough to make it worthwhile to me, the customer changes his mind or go's to another cue-maker.

Dick

 

[MVPCues]

I believe they would both be custom cues as they were built to specs you both agreed to whether or not you originally came up with them. When the product (cue) is finished it is exactly as you commissioned. Also, If you and six of your buddies came in with you and all ordered cues exactly alike then all of these would be Custom cues for these purchasers.

Some parameters, of coarse, cannot be met and when this occurs you explain why to the customer and he and you can agree to different specs or you just let them know it can't be built. I had one customer who wanted a gabon ebony cue with a steel joint weigh 15 oz. I told him no way. I normally don't make sharp inlays. I use a 1/32 cutter and feel that is good enough for the price I charge and the customers that I sell most of my cues to. If a customer insists on sharp inlays I jack up my price enough to make it worthwhile to me, the customer changes his mind or go's to another cue-maker.

Dick

Thanks Dick. I don't think I have much disagreement with you regarding what a custom cue is.
Kelly

 

[Craig Fales]

If you buy a new Ford Mustang, you will get a "made in America" car, with electronics from Japan & Taiwan. Tires from Italy & God only knows how many other parts from other manufacturers. IT STILL SAYS "FORD" on the car. I don't make my own paint or glue or bumpers or screws, Should I feel obligated to put "DUPONT'S" name next to my "BLACK HEART" logo? The most honored Qmakers in American history, used blanks & shafts from other makers. I can buy the wood, turn it, age it, cut the points, attach it to a handle add the butt sleeve & finish it to a mirror finish. On the other hand if I call Prathers, to buy glue & they tell me they have a 6 point blank in the colors that I need, for an up coming Q, I buy it. They do very good work & if it saves me a lot of time I'm a happy camper. So much is made about using a blank made by another maker. Only a Qmaker will tell you that making a pool Q, is so much more than just a forearm blank. You can take a beautiful blank & totally screw it up, UNLESS YOU ARE A REAL CUEMAKER...JER

The thing about Mustangs and "custom" cues is that Mustangs aren't custom the way a customer wants in its entirety....
________

 

[BLACKHEARTCUES]

The thing about Mustangs and "custom" cues is that Mustangs aren't custom the way a customer wants in its entirety....

At an auto show in every part of the country, there are catagories for each of the FACTORY built cars. There is also a section for CUSTOM CARS. There is a criteria, that says that if a certain percentage of a car is not STOCK (as it would be from the factory), then it goes to the "CUSTOM" group. That doesn't mean that every part is exactly what the customer wanted, but that it no longer fits into the fixed catagories. IT IS NOW A CUSTOM. This is the last I'll post on this subject. I'll still call my ONE-OF- A-KIND cues where inlays, woods, points & wraps are designed by my customers & built by me, as BLACK HEART CUSTOM POOL CUES, because they don't fit into any catagory, such as FACTORY or CATALOG cues...JER

 

[PetreeCues]

George Balabushka bought the joint screws at the hardware store. I mean that's just cheesy. I can't believe he didn't rig a machine lathe seperate to cut those screws. And his rubber bumpers.... yup... didn't mold them in the garage, he bought those too.

=-)

JWP

 

[merylane]

George Balabushka bought the joint screws at the hardware store. I mean that's just cheesy. I can't believe he didn't rig a machine lathe seperate to cut those screws. And his rubber bumpers.... yup... didn't mold them in the garage, he bought those too.

=-)

JWP

boy i got to find a hardware store like that.

 

[Craig Fales]

At an auto show in every part of the country, there are catagories for each of the FACTORY built cars. There is also a section for CUSTOM CARS. There is a criteria, that says that if a certain percentage of a car is not STOCK (as it would be from the factory), then it goes to the "CUSTOM" group. That doesn't mean that every part is exactly what the customer wanted, but that it no longer fits into the fixed catagories. IT IS NOW A CUSTOM. This is the last I'll post on this subject. I'll still call my ONE-OF- A-KIND cues where inlays, woods, points & wraps are designed by my customers & built by me, as BLACK HEART CUSTOM POOL CUES, because they don't fit into any catagory, such as FACTORY or CATALOG cues...JER

You are right...if a cue was picked out of a catalog or a car off a lot as is then it's not custom...if one part of cue or car was by an "aftermarket" company and added to the finished product you would still have a custom one of a kind end result....

JMHO....
________

 

[bstroud]

balabuska

George never made a blank in his life.
Most of the parts he used were purchased from Palmer.
Think his cues were any good?

Bill Stroud

 

[WilleeCue]

> From what I have read on here over the years,it seems there is some kind of "taboo" about using pre-made points and stuff like Prather's and Cue Components offers. Is this really the case,or am I reading too much into it?

You are indeed reading too much into it.

 

[PetreeCues]

Here's my take

I like Bill's point and take it a step further in explanation.

Cue makers are not created equal. There are some that do nearly everything themselves (all that is practically possible, that is) and there are some that do nearly NOTHING themselves and only assemble cues. There are a million of them in between.

The fact that points were bought from Prather, for instance (since you mention it), does not mean that the cue maker doesn't make a cue that hits really good. On the other hand, the cue maker can make a cue look incredible with his own points, inlays and such does not mean that he can make one hit good. Some can do neither. Some can do both.

Most cue makers try to do their best with the resources they have, usually making what they can and buying what they either cannot make or cannot afford to have the tools to make.

I make points and do all inlays myself. I also do both for other cue makers. I do not think those who buy parts from me are any less of a cue maker than I am, as there was a day that I did not have the machinery to build it all. Give them credit for the final result, however they get there, I say.

The bottom line:
We build what we want to build, the best way we know how. What you buy is up to you.

 

[merylane]

I like Bill's point and take it a step further in explanation.

Cue makers are not created equal. There are some that do nearly everything themselves (all that is practically possible, that is) and there are some that do nearly NOTHING themselves and only assemble cues. There are a million of them in between.

The fact that points were bought from Prather, for instance (since you mention it), does not mean that the cue maker doesn't make a cue that hits really good. On the other hand, the cue maker can make a cue look incredible with his own points, inlays and such does not mean that he can make one hit good. Some can do neither. Some can do both.

Most cue makers try to do their best with the resources they have, usually making what they can and buying what they either cannot make or cannot afford to have the tools to make.

I make points and do all inlays myself. I also do both for other cue makers. I do not think those who buy parts from me are any less of a cue maker than I am, as there was a day that I did not have the machinery to build it all. Give them credit for the final result, however they get there, I say.

The bottom line:
We build what we want to build, the best way we know how. What you buy is up to you.

but which would you value more?

and i dont think this was ever an ethical question..... unless they claimed to be making them thierselfs?

 

[Tommy-D]

> Thanks for all the input. Tommy D.