Explain This to Me...

ridewiththewind

♥ Hippie Hustler ♥
Silver Member
...In any other industry, those offering a product to the consumer are typically competing for your dollars with others who may offer a like product. In some circles, they are practically falling over one another to make the sale. They are offering a product, and are thankful for the business, in most cases.

So why is it, that in the billiard/pool industry, many of us are willing to stand in long lines (a list) in order to be abused by some cue makers?

You're told 5 years, and then it's more like 10. You're quoted one price at the time you are accepted to a list, only to have that price jacked when the cue is finally ready for delivery. You're patiently waiting on a list, only to see others that you know got on later, receiving cues...possibly even your cue. You pay a required deposit, and wait......and wait.....and wait...to never receive a cue OR your deposit back. You are lucky enough to get a cue from a 'desired' maker, only to have to send it back in for repairs, for whatever reason, only to never see the cue again.

WHY?!!

Because they're the cue maker du juor, and you have fooled yourself into thinking that they will retain an investment value? Even tho' we've all seen some of these once lauded makers fall from grace, and the bottom fall out.

Only in this industry do we give up the power of the consumer, and give it all away, willingly, to those providing the service (whether the sevice is actually provided or not). For some reason, after receiving one build quote, and then being told at time for delivery that there is an additional $600 cost, we're supposed to smile and say..."sure, whatever you say!", because after investing so much time waiting, they are afraid they will never get the cue...which does happen. And if we don't, then we are ridiculed by others who think this type of behavior is okay....because the 'investment value' of the maker's cues will more than offset the unagreed upon, unexpected price increase. Or, worse yet, perhaps, because we desire to have a cue from a maker whose production is lower than the next guy (and for bragging rights), we are willing to pay the flippers' prices...knowing full well, that that is NOT what the maker sells them for direct. For example...a cue that maybe was between $800-$1000 when acquired from the maker, being flipped for $2100 by someone looking to make a buck or two off the backs of the makers who actually did the work.

I don't get it....I think it's stupid....and a sure sign of greed (one of the 7 Deadly Sins, btw). If the consumers refused to pay the ridiculous prices that the flippers are attempting to get, then the market will eventually stabilize to where it should be.

I am not saying that there are not some makers out there who have not 'paid their dues' and deserve to charge a higher build price. But when you take some makers who think they deserve to command these higher prices, and then you get your chain yanked.....repeatedly...and you do nothing about it, you give up ALL your power as a consumer.

The reality is this...in a fair market, it doesn't matter what prices are being asked...the consumer will dictate whether or not that the price is in line, by either spending or not. They are freaking cue sticks, for pete's sakes!!....not a precious metal or gem. The best way to combat this is by not being so free with opening the purse-strings. If you quite rewarding this type of behavior, it will stop.


Let the justification begin!!
 

ShortBusRuss

Short Bus Russ - C Player
Silver Member
Ahhhh, horsesh!t!

It happens in every single industry where the number of the pproduct is kept low due to exclusivity. Because people are born suckers, they foam at the mouth at the possibility to getting cue/car/purse "X", and will subject themselves to all sorts of indignities in the pursuit of same.

I bought two Schons whilst i was in Iraq. They play within 2% of any cue on the market, depending on what you are used to playing with, for a shaft. It took me about the time needed to search for the deal in the AZBilliards "For Sale" forum.

I am sorry, but I am a utilitarian, first and foremost. I would never buy anything I had to wait 5 years for. A few months is acceptable for art, but 5-10 years?? Ludicrous! And the cuemaker is not to blame for this wait. It is the consumer himself. You COULD certainly buy from someone less in demand, you know.

Short Bus Russ
 

krupa

The Dream Operator
Silver Member
You ask this question a few days before Black Friday? When people literally trample one another to get good deals on electronics?

Seems like waiting 5 years for a hand-made, one-of-a-kind custom cue is pretty tame in comparison.
 

ridewiththewind

♥ Hippie Hustler ♥
Silver Member
Ahhhh, horsesh!t!

It happens in every single industry where the number of the pproduct is kept low due to exclusivity. Because people are born suckers, they foam at the mouth at the possibility to getting cue/car/purse "X", and will subject themselves to all sorts of indignities in the pursuit of same.

I bought two Schons whilst i was in Iraq. They play within 2% of any cue on the market, depending on what you are used to playing with, for a shaft. It took me about the time needed to search for the deal in the AZBilliards "For Sale" forum.

I am sorry, but I am a utilitarian, first and foremost. I would never buy anything I had to wait 5 years for. A few months is acceptable for art, but 5-10 years?? Ludicrous! And the cuemaker is not to blame for this wait. It is the consumer himself. You COULD certainly buy from someone less in demand, you know.

Short Bus Russ

And I have. I have never personally had a maker dink me around, raise a price quote on me, or not deliver within a few weeks one way or another of the quoted delivery date. All have made me feel like they were very happy to have me choose them for a project, and all provided excellent communication and customer service. This, IMHO, is how business is done

Sure, I could've bit, and gone 'on the chase' for a cue maker du juor's cue...but why on earth would I pay someone to treat me poorly? I don't care who the maker is, I will only put my money where I am treated as a valued customer.
 

ridewiththewind

♥ Hippie Hustler ♥
Silver Member
You ask this question a few days before Black Friday? When people literally trample one another to get good deals on electronics?

Seems like waiting 5 years for a hand-made, one-of-a-kind custom cue is pretty tame in comparison.

I personally think that Black Friday should be banned. It's not about the spirit of Christmas anymore, it's strictly consumerism, on it's ugliest level. Someone has to die in order for someone else to get the newest Xbox1?!
 

Maniac

2manyQ's
Silver Member
I hear you, girl!!!

Fact is....American consumers have to be some of the most gullible people on Earth. Either that, or we're just plain stupid. Greed...ego...high-and-mighty attitudes...snobbery...these are just some of the things that fuel our spending/buying habits.

I would never spend that kind of money on a playing cue (nor would I ever collect cues)...would never wait more than a few months for a cue to be built...but...

...it's their time and money, not mine. They can do it that way if they wish...it's just not for me.

I shake my head in amazement at some people though!!!

Maniac
 

ridewiththewind

♥ Hippie Hustler ♥
Silver Member
And yes....early in the last decade, I was on a maker's list. I got 'lost' not once, but twice. I think the maker does amazing work...truly. But when it became more about me being picked as a project to accept, as opposed to me picking the maker for a project...I made the decision to move on. It's my hard earned dollars....I'm not gonna have someone make me feel special because they decided to accept them.
 

ridewiththewind

♥ Hippie Hustler ♥
Silver Member
I hear you, girl!!!

Fact is....American consumers have to be some of the most gullible people on Earth. Either that, or we're just plain stupid. Greed...ego...high-and-mighty attitudes...snobbery...these are just some of the things that fuel our spending/buying habits.

I would never spend that kind of money on a playing cue (nor would I ever collect cues)...would never wait more than a few months for a cue to be built...but...

...it's their time and money, not mine. They can do it that way if they wish...it's just not for me.

I shake my head in amazement at some people though!!!

Maniac

My point was/is....that if we collectively refuse to foster this type of behavior by certain makers, by closing the purse-strings...the behavior will stop. Same goes with the flippers, who annoy me even more than the offending makers.
 

krupa

The Dream Operator
Silver Member
And yes....early in the last decade, I was on a maker's list. I got 'lost' not once, but twice. I think the maker does amazing work...truly. But when it became more about me being picked as a project to accept, as opposed to me picking the maker for a project...I made the decision to move on. It's my hard earned dollars....I'm not gonna have someone make me feel special because they decided to accept them.

At the same time, if the maker is so busy/popular that he can't possibly make cues for everyone in a reasonable amount of time, why shouldn't he pick-and-choose his work? I'm sure Frank Lloyd Wright wasn't accepting "small" jobs...
 

bdorman

Dead money
Silver Member
Go into Guitar Center to buy a guitar and they'll do anything to make the sale.

Order a handmade custom guitar and you'll think that custom cue makers are saints.
 

Cdryden

Pool Addict
Silver Member
...In any other industry, those offering a product to the consumer are typically competing for your dollars with others who may offer a like product. In some circles, they are practically falling over one another to make the sale. They are offering a product, and are thankful for the business, in most cases.

So why is it, that in the billiard/pool industry, many of us are willing to stand in long lines (a list) in order to be abused by some cue makers?

You're told 5 years, and then it's more like 10. You're quoted one price at the time you are accepted to a list, only to have that price jacked when the cue is finally ready for delivery. You're patiently waiting on a list, only to see others that you know got on later, receiving cues...possibly even your cue. You pay a required deposit, and wait......and wait.....and wait...to never receive a cue OR your deposit back. You are lucky enough to get a cue from a 'desired' maker, only to have to send it back in for repairs, for whatever reason, only to never see the cue again.

WHY?!!

Because they're the cue maker du juor, and you have fooled yourself into thinking that they will retain an investment value? Even tho' we've all seen some of these once lauded makers fall from grace, and the bottom fall out.

Only in this industry do we give up the power of the consumer, and give it all away, willingly, to those providing the service (whether the sevice is actually provided or not). For some reason, after receiving one build quote, and then being told at time for delivery that there is an additional $600 cost, we're supposed to smile and say..."sure, whatever you say!", because after investing so much time waiting, they are afraid they will never get the cue...which does happen. And if we don't, then we are ridiculed by others who think this type of behavior is okay....because the 'investment value' of the maker's cues will more than offset the unagreed upon, unexpected price increase. Or, worse yet, perhaps, because we desire to have a cue from a maker whose production is lower than the next guy (and for bragging rights), we are willing to pay the flippers' prices...knowing full well, that that is NOT what the maker sells them for direct. For example...a cue that maybe was between $800-$1000 when acquired from the maker, being flipped for $2100 by someone looking to make a buck or two off the backs of the makers who actually did the work.

I don't get it....I think it's stupid....and a sure sign of greed (one of the 7 Deadly Sins, btw). If the consumers refused to pay the ridiculous prices that the flippers are attempting to get, then the market will eventually stabilize to where it should be.

I am not saying that there are not some makers out there who have not 'paid their dues' and deserve to charge a higher build price. But when you take some makers who think they deserve to command these higher prices, and then you get your chain yanked.....repeatedly...and you do nothing about it, you give up ALL your power as a consumer.

The reality is this...in a fair market, it doesn't matter what prices are being asked...the consumer will dictate whether or not that the price is in line, by either spending or not. They are freaking cue sticks, for pete's sakes!!....not a precious metal or gem. The best way to combat this is by not being so free with opening the purse-strings. If you quite rewarding this type of behavior, it will stop.


Let the justification begin!!

You still have the power to say no thanks.
 

alstl

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I have a different question. Why would anybody order anything which will take an estimated 5 years to build and then be surprised when problems arise?

The very fact there is a 5 year waiting list indicates the builder is either severely backlogged or severely slow or severely eccentric or all of the above, none of which would give me great confidence in getting my order seamlessly delivered.
 

ridewiththewind

♥ Hippie Hustler ♥
Silver Member
At the same time, if the maker is so busy/popular that he can't possibly make cues for everyone in a reasonable amount of time, why shouldn't he pick-and-choose his work? I'm sure Frank Lloyd Wright wasn't accepting "small" jobs...

Well, as already stated, you have the flippers to thank for that. They quite regularly falsely inflate cue values, off the backs of those makers they are hyping.

It's not about picking and choosing anymore....it's about who has the largest money roll. Too often the lowly player, on whose back the maker has earned their reputation to begin with, get's shoved aside and forgotten...in favor of the larger money roll. When a player can manage to come up with the dough for what would now be a simple entry level cue...they are told 3yrs...then 5yrs....then 8yrs...then it's 10 yrs..............only to watch others with larger bank rolls get moved into position fairly immediately, and receive their cues.

It's all about a little thing called INTEGRITY. And there is no amount of arguing the point that is going to dispute the fact that this type of behavior shows a lack of integrity on the part of a maker that would do this to a customer...and yet there are people willing to stand in line, and wait and wait and wait, for something that is quite likely never going to happen....because their bank roll isn't big enough to move them up the list.
 

JAM

Pool and Snooker Railbird
Silver Member
It would seem that the cue-maker industry is not a time-sensitive one. Wow! Five years????? I could be dead in 5 years. I don't think I would ever want to order anything that far in advance or be put on a waiting list that far in advance.
 

ridewiththewind

♥ Hippie Hustler ♥
Silver Member
I have a different question. Why would anybody order anything which will take an estimated 5 years to build and then be surprised when problems arise?

The very fact there is a 5 year waiting list indicates the builder is either severely backlogged or severely slow or severely eccentric or all of the above, none of which would give me great confidence in getting my order seamlessly delivered.

Thank you! That should have been included in mky initial post....but you hit the nail on the head!
 

ridewiththewind

♥ Hippie Hustler ♥
Silver Member
You still have the power to say no thanks.

And I did, by removing myself from the list. I felt disrespected by the fact that I was not important enough as a customer to not get 'lost' on the list. And I got in on it pretty early on.
 

jburkm002

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I think it's funny because probably 95% of pool players can't even tell you who the pro's are. Let alone who 95% of the cue makers are. Oh look I have a SW. Oh that's nice. Never heard of them. When you literally have to point out and explain the value of your cue. Then what's the point. Oh look, this is all real ivory. Oh that's nice. Mines fake but who knew. When you have to hold anything in your hand with your eyes within a foot away to see all the detail. What's the point. Very few cues stand out from across the table. I have seen some plain jane cues go for big bucks just because of who made them. To each their own but I know I have never felt ripped off buying a cue. No one will ever convince me their cue is better just because they paid more for it. Oh look another plain jane for $5000. Just don't get it.
 

ridewiththewind

♥ Hippie Hustler ♥
Silver Member
It would seem that the cue-maker industry is not a time-sensitive one. Wow! Five years????? I could be dead in 5 years. I don't think I would ever want to order anything that far in advance or be put on a waiting list that far in advance.

I hear ya!! Some of us do not have the luxury of these ridiculous waiting lists. The sad part is....I wanted the cue to actually PLAY with....imagine that! No closet queens in my reality, I play with what I buy. I can tell you it's very disheartening when you're waiting on your turn, only to see others passing you by....and listing their cues immediately for sale, looking for the flip/profit.

Like I said, in my mind, it is definitely an integrity issue. If they are willing to do this to me, then what else are they willing to do?
 

jburkm002

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Production cues get knocked. Why because someone decided to get all the latest high tech equipment, space and employees to make more cues at a cheaper price. Well guess what's selling and more importantly. BEING PLAYED WITH.
 

ridewiththewind

♥ Hippie Hustler ♥
Silver Member
I think it's funny because probably 95% of pool players can't even tell you who the pro's are. Let alone who 95% of the cue makers are. Oh look I have a SW. Oh that's nice. Never heard of them. When you literally have to point out and explain the value of your cue. Then what's the point. Oh look, this is all real ivory. Oh that's nice. Mines fake but who knew. When you have to hold anything in your hand with your eyes within a foot away to see all the detail. What's the point. Very few cues stand out from across the table. I have seen some plain jane cues go for big bucks just because of who made them. To each their own but I know I have never felt ripped off buying a cue. No one will ever convince me their cue is better just because they paid more for it. Oh look another plain jane for $5000. Just don't get it.

I agree...there is no way on God's green earth that I am paying $5K for a plain jane cue! It's certainly not going to guarantee that I play any better.
 
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