Extreme short cut shots

[whitewolf]

Tues night I had the cue ball right up next to the 8 ball with an 89.999% cut to the corner pocket about a foot and 1/2 away. I always use inside english on this shot and fortunately the 8 ball creeped into the pocket just as planned.

I don't know why I do this but I have a theory. By using inside english, you are seeing more of the object ball if you are looking down the cue and/or at the cue tip. You can see the edge of the cue ball better also. This makes for easier aiming.

I find this true for extreme cut shots about a foot away or less. But for the length of the table extreme cut shots, I have heard different theories on what english (if any) to use, but I am curious as to what you think is the best method.

Thanks in advance - WW

 

[cut shot]

Yep, seems like you got it down. Without seeing the setup of the exact shot it is hard to tell for sure. I usually cut by using center ball hit, please remember, even a center ball hit on a cut will impart some english.However, it seems you are doing the right thing if you made it in.

Tues night I had the cue ball right up next to the 8 ball with an 89.999% cut to the corner pocket about a foot and 1/2 away. I always use inside english on this shot and fortunately the 8 ball creeped into the pocket just as planned.

I don't know why I do this but I have a theory. By using inside english, you are seeing more of the object ball if you are looking down the cue and/or at the cue tip. You can see the edge of the cue ball better also. This makes for easier aiming.

I find this true for extreme cut shots about a foot away or less. But for the length of the table extreme cut shots, I have heard different theories on what english (if any) to use, but I am curious as to what you think is the best method.

Thanks in advance - WW

 

[CaptainJR]

Tues night I had the cue ball right up next to the 8 ball with an 89.999% cut to the corner pocket about a foot and 1/2 away. I always use inside english on this shot and fortunately the 8 ball creeped into the pocket just as planned.

I don't know why I do this but I have a theory. By using inside english, you are seeing more of the object ball if you are looking down the cue and/or at the cue tip. You can see the edge of the cue ball better also. This makes for easier aiming.

I find this true for extreme cut shots about a foot away or less. But for the length of the table extreme cut shots, I have heard different theories on what english (if any) to use, but I am curious as to what you think is the best method.

Thanks in advance - WW

When you mention seeing the edge of the cue ball you are getting very close to what I use to make this kind of shot. I'm not the best pool player around, however some people are known of there banking ability, some for there cutting ability and so forth. I'm known to be able to make the shot when I accidentally get to close to my work. You here them say it on TV all the time. 'He got closer to that ball than he wanted to'. I make those shots all the time. Probably to much practice at them from missing position I guess. Anyway, how I do it. As you mentioned, you need to see the contact points. Usually when you get down on a shot you can see the contact point on the object ball, but when the object ball is that close, the cue ball blocks the view. Normally you can't see the contact point on the cue ball, on this shot you can't see either of them. Solution. I don't get down on it. I keep the cue level to the table, but my head is a close to completely above the shot as I can get. It will feel very strange when you first try it, but you can see both the contact point on the object ball and the cue ball. Make them connect when you hit and it goes in. Using this you don't need to use english to see. If you need engligh for position, go ahead and use it. At this great an angle the english will have very little effect on the shot.

 

[crawdaddio]

Tues night I had the cue ball right up next to the 8 ball with an 89.999% cut to the corner pocket about a foot and 1/2 away. I always use inside english on this shot and fortunately the 8 ball creeped into the pocket just as planned.

I don't know why I do this but I have a theory. By using inside english, you are seeing more of the object ball if you are looking down the cue and/or at the cue tip. You can see the edge of the cue ball better also. This makes for easier aiming.

I find this true for extreme cut shots about a foot away or less. But for the length of the table extreme cut shots, I have heard different theories on what english (if any) to use, but I am curious as to what you think is the best method.

Thanks in advance - WW

Great shot. I think inside english is best for the situation (I think ) you are decribing. It has to do with deflection. If you were to use outside english on an extremeley close (cb to ob) very thin cut shot the deflection would cause the cue ball to hit too much of the object ball causing a miss. Converseley, inside english deflects the cb away from the ob assisting in the VERY thin hit. Of course, depending on how far your ob has to go, you might need some force..........but you already knew that

http://endeavor.med.nyu.edu/~wei/pool/9egg/

Is this it?

START(
%Ao9G0%BL8P7%CJ7O4%DL8N2%EM7P1%FK7P1%GK7N8%HM7N8%IL7O4%JK8M6
%KJ7P7%LJ7N2%MK7Q3%NJ7Q9%OJ7M0%Po2G9%Us5B5%Vp2F5%Wk8F1%Xn8G6
%eC6a5
)END

That's kinda hard to diagram..............

Peace
~DC

 

[cut shot]

Hey Crawdaddio, please go back to the pic of the old guy. Better yet, an old guy holding a cue! It reminds me of my Grandpa! Thanks!!

Great shot. I think inside english is best for the situation (I think ) you are decribing. It has to do with deflection. If you were to use outside english on an extremeley close (cb to ob) very thin cut shot the deflection would cause the cue ball to hit too much of the object ball causing a miss. Converseley, inside english deflects the cb away from the ob assisting in the VERY thin hit. Of course, depending on how far your ob has to go, you might need some force..........but you already knew that

http://endeavor.med.nyu.edu/~wei/pool/9egg/

Is this it?

START(
%Ao9G0%BL8P7%CJ7O4%DL8N2%EM7P1%FK7P1%GK7N8%HM7N8%IL7O4%JK8M6
%KJ7P7%LJ7N2%MK7Q3%NJ7Q9%OJ7M0%Po2G9%Us5B5%Vp2F5%Wk8F1%Xn8G6
%eC6a5
)END

That's kinda hard to diagram..............

Peace
~DC

 

[cut shot]

Oooops, no disrespect or pun intended, but it really does remind me of my Grandpa! I thoght I had better clear that up!

Hey Crawdaddio, please go back to the pic of the old guy. Better yet, an old guy holding a cue! It reminds me of my Grandpa! Thanks!!

 

[Stretch]

Tues night I had the cue ball right up next to the 8 ball with an 89.999% cut to the corner pocket about a foot and 1/2 away. I always use inside english on this shot and fortunately the 8 ball creeped into the pocket just as planned.

I don't know why I do this but I have a theory. By using inside english, you are seeing more of the object ball if you are looking down the cue and/or at the cue tip. You can see the edge of the cue ball better also. This makes for easier aiming.

I find this true for extreme cut shots about a foot away or less. But for the length of the table extreme cut shots, I have heard different theories on what english (if any) to use, but I am curious as to what you think is the best method.

Thanks in advance - WW

Well, to answer your question WW. IMO the long thin cuts are better attempted with centre ball. Anyway you cut it (har-har) this is a fairly low percentage shot. Sucker shot really. You want to know why? Because of unwanted english spoiling the line...let alone WANTED english, you know what i mean? I practise this shot useing low centre because aiming low aids in hitting on the verticle axis (taking side out of the equation). And secondly it gives you good aim through the cueball to a spot on the table 'beside' the ob. A little practice here gives you an idea of where that spot should be. I imagine the ghost ball in this situation, and where it would sit on the table if it was a dead combo to the corner.

As for the up close thin cut, there's thin...then there's ultra thin! lol I favour useing inside for aiming these. I'll line it up for a little thick-thin and let the natural squirt thin it down. I've made some impossably thin cuts going the other way too. Just depends on how i feel in that situation. Useing outside english, aim to just miss the ball letting the squirt thin it. St.

 

[TATE]

Tues night I had the cue ball right up next to the 8 ball with an 89.999% cut to the corner pocket about a foot and 1/2 away. I always use inside english on this shot and fortunately the 8 ball creeped into the pocket just as planned.

I don't know why I do this but I have a theory. By using inside english, you are seeing more of the object ball if you are looking down the cue and/or at the cue tip. You can see the edge of the cue ball better also. This makes for easier aiming.

I find this true for extreme cut shots about a foot away or less. But for the length of the table extreme cut shots, I have heard different theories on what english (if any) to use, but I am curious as to what you think is the best method.

Thanks in advance - WW

Personally, I think the ability to consistently execute the thinnest imaginable cut on demand while still controlling the cue ball is the surest sign of being in dead stroke, and among the greatest skills in the game. I say this because at this extreme, there is almost zero margin for error.

For this reason I try not to use spin when shooting hair thin cuts unless I need it for position. The squirt can throw you off.

Chris

 

[crawdaddio]

Hey Crawdaddio, please go back to the pic of the old guy. Better yet, an old guy holding a cue! It reminds me of my Grandpa! Thanks!!

I wonder if you noticed what that guy was actually holding?

DC

 

[drivermaker]

Well, to answer your question WW. IMO the long thin cuts are better attempted with centre ball. Anyway you cut it (har-har) this is a fairly low percentage shot. Sucker shot really. You want to know why? Because of unwanted english spoiling the line...let alone WANTED english, you know what i mean? I practise this shot useing low centre because aiming low aids in hitting on the verticle axis (taking side out of the equation). And secondly it gives you good aim through the cueball to a spot on the table 'beside' the ob.

Center ball it is, you can't have ANY english affecting the shot. I do it a little differently. I prefer hitting center ball with a slightly elevated cue...why? Because one of the deadliest shots that I ever ran into years ago taught me to do it that way and it just works the best of anything I've experimented with so far. See if you get any kind of different result with that instead of low. Maybe you will....and maybe you won't.

 

[Stretch]

Center ball it is, you can't have ANY english affecting the shot. I do it a little differently. I prefer hitting center ball with a slightly elevated cue...why? Because one of the deadliest shots that I ever ran into years ago taught me to do it that way and it just works the best of anything I've experimented with so far. See if you get any kind of different result with that instead of low. Maybe you will....and maybe you won't.

Good point Drivermaker. Going high on the cue ball is the other option and sometimes it is the only option when your in an awkward position with your bridge hand or up against a rail. It also lends itself to the open bridge where aiming down the cue is made easier. Snooker players use this bridgeing technique exclusively and they make 12 ft shots! So there has to be something to it

Of note perhaps is that a lot of shots go wrong where the backspin or skid ware's off and the cueball starts picking up forward roll. It's in this area that the shot can fall off line. However, if you hit the cue ball at around 3/4 high dead on the verticle axis your shot will have natural forward roll right from the start. That balls going to go wherever you point the tip. St

 

[Bob Jewett]

...
I don't know why I do this but I have a theory. By using inside english, you are seeing more of the object ball if you are looking down the cue and/or at the cue tip. You can see the edge of the cue ball better also. This makes for easier aiming.

I find this true for extreme cut shots about a foot away or less. But for the length of the table extreme cut shots, I have heard different theories on what english (if any) to use, but I am curious as to what you think is the best method.

I know a player who played all his hard cuts with inside english. He said it was easier to aim that way. I think it was the way he always practiced so he got good at it.

If you want to play position, you have to be able to make shots with all possible combinations of spin and speed. Of course, you also want to keep things as simple as possible, which means as little spin as possible. Unless you're powering the cue ball around the table, it turns out that if you hit the cue ball at about 60% of its height, and it is rolling smoothly when it hits the object ball, the position play is the simplest in that it is the easiest to predict and control.

There is a good reason for playing with inside when the cue ball is very close to the object ball, and that is to avoid the double-hit foul.

 

[Rod]

Center ball it is, you can't have ANY english affecting the shot. I do it a little differently. I prefer hitting center ball with a slightly elevated cue...why? Because one of the deadliest shots that I ever ran into years ago taught me to do it that way and it just works the best of anything I've experimented with so far. See if you get any kind of different result with that instead of low. Maybe you will....and maybe you won't.

Well you might with an elevated cue. When you elevate, even if it's a slight amount more than normal, with speed the c/b leaves the table. That means on a cut shot you contact the o/b higher/thinner or can jump over it completely. This happens on shots where the c/b and o/b are closer together.

The c/b spends little time on the table in the first few inches of a stroke, depending on speed and cue angle of course. Lets say you have this angle -- START(
%AX7G7%BL7P8%CJ5O4%DL7N1%EM7P1%FK6P1%GK6N8%HM7N8%IL7O4%P\8K4
%QY3I1%RW4H3%S^6_1%W[0C0%XW6J7%YU2G2%Zb3M0
)END

You need speed to cut it in, if you elevate with that speed the c/b will leave the cloth. You can test this by putting a dime at points A or B. If it clears the dime at point B it may be to thin of a hit or miss the one. You can just test this anywhere. I've used a quarter or more stacked to prove this point, depending on cue angle and speed of course. It's a mini jump shot. lol but your not aware it's leaving the table.

Rod

 

[sjm]

Well, I always hate introducing the word deflection to any post, but since Crawdaddio has used it already in this thread, I'll follow suit.

I think Crawdaddio made a very good point. Expanidng on what he wrote, I honestly believe that one reason most of do better with inside english on this kind of cut is that our natural tendency is to not aim thin enough, and the deflection (more specifically, the squirt) has a way of helping us out by compensating for this.

Having said that, though, over the years I have often watched Johnny Ervolino, a thin cut specialist if there ever was one, and he seemed to hit this kind of shot with center ball.

Hey, whatever works.

 

[drivermaker]

That balls going to go wherever you point the tip. St

Uhhh Stretch...watch what you say around here. If the ball is going to go wherever you POINT THE TIP, that's what is otherwise known as aiming. Some people don't wish to admit that they or pro's aim, because it denotes weakness or lack of true skill.

Some verbal and conceptual thinking midgets will say, "Well, that's just aiming...not an aiming system". Well, I'm sure you know as well as most that it's very simply called the cue stick, cue shaft, or cue tip aiming system. It's really not that difficult, is it?

 

[Stretch]

Uhhh Stretch...watch what you say around here. If the ball is going to go wherever you POINT THE TIP, that's what is otherwise known as aiming. Some people don't wish to admit that they or pro's aim, because it denotes weakness or lack of true skill.

Some verbal and conceptual thinking midgets will say, "Well, that's just aiming...not an aiming system". Well, I'm sure you know as well as most that it's very simply called the cue stick, cue shaft, or cue tip aiming system. It's really not that difficult, is it?

Point taken ......Now i'll really freak them out. This shot i will describe is a mystery to me. Maybe you can help me out a little.

It's your basic straight in shot with a slight angle 1 or two feet away....easy shot. BUT you need to really put the top spin on to travel all the way up table or around two or three rails. A good test for follow right? I found that i can do this easily by changing my stroke, or more precisely adding something on.

Here it is. Instead of stoping at the end of your stroke, draw the cue back to it's address position. Fire and bring it back as a whole sequence. To put it in a more visual sense.....you know when your in close to the ob and your in danger of double kissing with your cue tip. You need to shoot a nip-draw shot, or some folks call it the snatch back draw, whatever, the draw back is to aviod the double kiss and is part of the whole stroke. THIS shot is the same idea only it's a way longer stroke of course. Do you get what i mean?

It's spooky. I can get good, and i mean GOOD follow the conventional way, but when i add on the draw back element to the stroke it like magnifies the action on the cueball by a good 25% and i havn't the foggiest idea why. I mean you've already hit the cue ball and it's long gone by the time your drawback begins. It's driving me insane because there is no logical reason why i can get WAY more action with the drawback put in.

I invite anyone to at least try this with an open mind and see the results themselves..........It looks real cool too lol and it feels quite different as you recoil backwards while the cue ball recoils forward! St.

 

[Bob Jewett]

... It's spooky. I can get good, and i mean GOOD follow the conventional way, but when i add on the draw back element to the stroke it like magnifies the action on the cueball by a good 25% and i havn't the foggiest idea why. ...

It's probably because you are not hitting the cue ball as high as you think you are and when you do the funny stuff with your stroke, you hit the ball higher. Lots of players have the same problem but with draw, because they drop their elbow before they hit the ball. Just try aiming higher on the cue ball and use your normal stroke. I think it is a mistake to layer on complications as compensation for fundamental problems.

 

[drivermaker]

And my guess at it is that you're just getting a lot more snap in your wrist and hand action forward as a result of trying to get it to come back so quickly. Kinda like a bullwhip action...it works both ways.

 

[Jon]

And my guess at it is that you're just getting a lot more snap in your wrist and hand action forward as a result of trying to get it to come back so quickly. Kinda like a bullwhip action...it works both ways.

Yep, that is what i was thinking. If you KNOW you are going to do something at the end of your stroke, you actually change your entire stroke to help it along. That is my story. Like when you have to "draw back" on a close shot, your stroke is A LOT MORE tense than usual, because you are anticipating the "hasty retreat"...

Thanks,

Jon

 

[Stretch]

Yep, that is what i was thinking. If you KNOW you are going to do something at the end of your stroke, you actually change your entire stroke to help it along. That is my story. Like when you have to "draw back" on a close shot, your stroke is A LOT MORE tense than usual, because you are anticipating the "hasty retreat"...

Thanks,

Jon

Hey thanks for the input guys! Jon, Driver, Bob, WW. You gave me lots to think about.....i like that. St