Fargo Caps = The dumbing down of pool

[APA Operator]

League is like comparing pickleball to tennis....there is no comparison. I don't/won't compromise.
Does that make me a dinosaur?
Not able to sit with the cool kids at lunch?
Maybe

I may be cazy, but I'm not gonna get excited about paying money every week to play a race to 5 for a 5 inch trophy.

So? You hate leagues. We know that. But if you're arguing that something you won't even compare to pool ruined your model, how strong could that model have been in the first place?

I don't really care if your name is Barney, where you sit for lunch, or how big a trophy has to be to excite you (5 inches is pretty small, though - my trophies are much bigger than that). I just wish you wouldn't look down your nose at those who do get excited about a trophy. What did they ever do to you? Let them have their excitement.

On second thought, feel free to look down your nose at whomever you want. It's your nose and yours to do with as you wish.

To make this related to the original topic, I think limits should be placed on the rankings to participate, and I see no reason why the upper limit can't be some random value between x and y. But I think more emphasis should be placed on limits at the lower end of the range. The difference in upper and lower limits should be fairly constant to make your handicapped races as fair as you want them to be (chances don't have to be equal for everyone, "a reasonable chance" is not the same as "an equal chance" - the latter is pretty much a pipe dream) within time constraints. Otherwise you're just trying to get those housewives to part with their money with no chance of winning even a five-inch trophy.

 

[The_JV]

League pool may have changed everything, but I wouldn't say it ruined anything. Is there something wrong with enjoying a game (any game) but not having the desire or drive to be the best? If so, then every game, not just pool, is ruined. All league pool does is give those people, who vastly outnumber those with the ability, desire, and drive (ADD - ha!) to be the best, more structure under which to play. Flag football didn't ruin everything, softball leagues didn't ruin everything, golf leagues didn't ruin golf. The list goes on and on. Perhaps if APA and similar leagues were more willing to turn people away on ability alone (APA is VERY reluctant to tell someone "You're just too good." It wouldn't bother me a bit if the upper exclusion point was the point at which one reaches the highest skill level. I'd miss most of them because most are good people, but I could get behind graduating them out of the APA system) and other organizations (including those who just do tournaments) were willing to set a minimum level of ability required to participate, a whole structure of organizations with progressively larger entries and pots could be built and provide those with ADD the incentive and the avenues to develop their skills.

I don't believe leagues hurt the game at all. Handicapping model in some leagues has.

What it has done is teach players coming into the game that they should be compensated for their lack of ability, rather than driving them to improve. Not just by having a win but by being better than the other guy. Sure a lot of player will improve to some degree by merely coming out every week and hitting balls. However there isn't any hard motivation to gain that success. Worse yet some leagues literally punish players/teams for individual improvement by forcing them out of their peer group. Which was likely why they started coming out in the first place.

This is why I prefer the BCA model over the APA. You can have the weakest team in the room, or the top 5 players in the region on your team. Doesn't matter and the points per rack model provides parity on the team level, not the player. So now Billy Bob can put the time in, get lessons, donate to the local shortstop and learn how to beat Jimmy, rather than rely on the handicap false idol. If he doesn't make that effort, he will never beat Jimmy. Conquest over an opponent is the motivator. In other formats that desire and success is punished, so why bother...? Billy Bob still can still get the false idol win on the player level and continue to play with his peers.

Sorry, I didn't mean to sound like I'm crapping on the APA. However it is the best example of a handicapping system that punishes improvement. I'm sure there's others just as appropriate.

 

[garczar]

I don't believe leagues hurt the game at all. Handicapping model in some leagues has.

What it has done is teach players coming into the game that they should be compensated for their lack of ability, rather than driving them to improve. Not just by having a win but by being better than the other guy. Sure a lot of player will improve to some degree by merely coming out every week and hitting balls. However there isn't any hard motivation to gain that success. Worse yet some leagues literally punish players/teams for individual improvement by forcing them out of their peer group. Which was likely why they started coming out in the first place.

This is why I prefer the BCA model over the APA. You can have the weakest team in the room, or the top 5 players in the region on your team. Doesn't matter and the points per rack model provides parity on the team level, not the player. So now Billy Bob can put the time in, get lessons, donate to the local shortstop and learn how to beat Jimmy, rather than rely on the handicap false idol. If he doesn't make that effort, he will never beat Jimmy. Conquest over an opponent is the motivator. In other formats that desire and success is punished, so why bother...? Billy Bob still can still get the false idol win on the player level and continue to play with his peers.

Sorry, I didn't mean to sound like I'm crapping on the APA. However it is the best example of a handicapping system that punishes improvement. I'm sure there's others just as appropriate.

Agree here to a point. That point is that a LOT(most?) league players are there for the social/fun aspects. They want to have a chance against better players and i get that. I don't see handicapping so much as an improvement punisher but more of a impetus for better players to play their speed. Golf has been handicapping amateur play for eons and the current Slope system used is quite good and fair. I don't see golfers going on-line and whining about how un-fair it is. Must be a pool thing.

 

[The_JV]

Agree here to a point. That point is that a LOT(most?) league players are there for the social/fun aspects. They want to have a chance against better players and i get that. I don't see handicapping so much as an improvement punisher but more of a impetus for better players to play their speed. Golf has been handicapping amateur play for eons and the current Slope system used is quite good and fair. I don't see golfers going on-line and whining about how un-fair it is. Must be a pool thing.

Well this thread and conversation about what is un-fair has morphed as the pages pile on.

• Fargo caps are annoying to only those who are excluded.
• Handicaps of any sort merely provide the lesser combatant an opportunity for a "participation ribbon" win over the more advanced player.
• Leagues in of themselves aren't bad for pool. Quite the opposite.
• Some leagues employ handicapping tactics that punish success (APA). Which places greater focus on managing one's handicap more so than improving.
  • This of course only matters if the player cares about remaining with the peer group he has teamed up with.
• Handicapping in leagues can be effective and non-intrusive to team building/legacy (BCA).

I play in both APA and BCA format leagues. BCA we come out and play and worry about handicaps when we calculate the score at the end. APA is endless mind fck of who puts up and what team we can field. Oh and the thrill heavily mixed with the dread of our 2/3SLs having a good night.

 

[BasementDweller]

I also think we exaggerate the need for handicapping. I'd say most players I talk to don't want/need a 100% handicap. Most players are probably content with a very light game spot. So when a room runs a successful weekly tournament that ends up drying up -- we always blame the handicapping. Well, yes if the tournament is nothing more than a cash grab -- then it will quickly dry up if the same people are always winning. If on the other hand, the tournament becomes a social event, where all the players have a good time, feel welcomed, experience some camaraderie, are treated fairly, and just enjoy being there -- the tournament will thrive.

The problem with pool is -- so many rooms are struggling to just stay a float that they have a hard time creating the environment I laid out. So it's easier to just blame it on handicapping.

 

[SBC]

So? You hate leagues. We know that. But if you're arguing that something you won't even compare to pool ruined your model, how strong could that model have been in the first place?

I don't really care if your name is Barney, where you sit for lunch, or how big a trophy has to be to excite you (5 inches is pretty small, though - my trophies are much bigger than that). I just wish you wouldn't look down your nose at those who do get excited about a trophy. What did they ever do to you? Let them have their excitement.

On second thought, feel free to look down your nose at whomever you want. It's your nose and yours to do with as you wish.

To make this related to the original topic, I think limits should be placed on the rankings to participate, and I see no reason why the upper limit can't be some random value between x and y. But I think more emphasis should be placed on limits at the lower end of the range. The difference in upper and lower limits should be fairly constant to make your handicapped races as fair as you want them to be (chances don't have to be equal for everyone, "a reasonable chance" is not the same as "an equal chance" - the latter is pretty much a pipe dream) within time constraints. Otherwise you're just trying to get those housewives to part with their money with no chance of winning even a five-inch trophy.

Your making money off these people....so of course you are pro league.

You guys are legends in your own minds....til you play someone who is a real player. Bunch of heros whose daddy's told them they could have been pro.....and you can't run more than a rack when competing in the Pineapple Open.

You league ops detest real pool and do everything to undermine it for personal gain.

 

[Icon of Sin]

Your making money off these people....so of course you are pro league.

You guys are legends in your own minds....til you play someone who is a real player. Bunch of heros whose daddy's told them they could have been pro.....and you can't run more than a rack when competing in the Pineapple Open.

You league ops detest real pool and do everything to undermine it for personal gain.

That's a bit extreme...

I'm a former league player and happy to not be in it any more... It is in the nature of a league operator/owner to try to make money for the league and themselves... that's just called business.

I don't think league is undermining real pool at all. If anything, it has the ability to open people up to it.

I'm a perfect example of that. I started playing pool about 25 years ago. I joined a league for the fun and friendly competition. I learned from some of the higher level players and had a desire to improve. I eventually maxed out my skill level in both disciplines and a few years after that I decided to quit league and move in to the real pool world. That was about 15 years ago. Now it's nothing but tournaments and some cheap action. I find that a lot more fun now that I have the ability to barely hold my own.

Do you honestly think the lifelong APA SL3 that only shoots once a week gives a fuck about pool? Yeah in their matches each week, they could be trying their best to win, but that is the only time they ever play. They don't put the time in daily in get better/run drills. Their idea of practice is going out and hitting a few racks with some teammates. That's not practice. They are going out on league for the social aspect of it and it's a fun night out for them. They don't care who wins the Mosconi cup, hell they don't even know who Mosconi is let alone the event in his namesake.

-H (see disclaimer below)

 

[billb]

That's a bit extreme...

I'm a former league player and happy to not be in it any more... It is in the nature of a league operator/owner to try to make money for the league and themselves... that's just called business.

I don't think league is undermining real pool at all. If anything, it has the ability to open people up to it.

I'm a perfect example of that. I started playing pool about 25 years ago. I joined a league for the fun and friendly competition. I learned from some of the higher level players and had a desire to improve. I eventually maxed out my skill level in both disciplines and a few years after that I decided to quit league and move in to the real pool world. That was about 15 years ago. Now it's nothing but tournaments and some cheap action. I find that a lot more fun now that I have the ability to barely hold my own.

Do you honestly think the lifelong APA SL3 that only shoots once a week gives a fuck about pool? Yeah in their matches each week, they could be trying their best to win, but that is the only time they ever play. They don't put the time in daily in get better/run drills. Their idea of practice is going out and hitting a few racks with some teammates. That's not practice. They are going out on league for the social aspect of it and it's a fun night out for them. They don't care who wins the Mosconi cup, hell they don't even know who Mosconi is let alone the event in his namesake.

-H (see disclaimer below)

Great post. Very accurate. Everyone has a different agenda when it comes to their personal interest in the game.

Without league players, many businesses who provide a platform for the game would cease to exist because of lack of revenue. Those league players are quite possibly people who drop $50 to $75 a night at your establishment. Fill a room full of pool players and do that math. That isn't daddy blowing smoke or handing out participation trophies.....that's a reality.

Same with things like the Super Billiards Expo....take the "league player" out of that equation and you go from thousands of pool players who help manifest a platform for the expo as a whole to a 20 or 30 725 Fargo players battling it out. No vendors. Likely no pro event. And so on....

I don't consider myself a member of the "Bunch of heros whose daddy's told them they could have been pro.....and you can't run more than a rack when competing in the Pineapple Open" club as stated by another forum participant. I consider myself a successful member of society with a good job, a family, a stable life, money to spend on the game that I love AND lastly, a person who can enjoy the game via my own free will....however I see fit. I respect the opinions of others, but not when those opinions come across as a personal attack just because I don't think like they do. Frankly, that stereotype is just flat out stupid.

I learned long ago, as I live in an area where there are a large number of extremely strong regional players, is that those aren't the people who keep your doors open as a business person. You need the entire pie, not just that small isolated piece. Because though we have a large number of strong players within a couple of hours of me, that number is still waaaaayyyyyyyyy smaller than the 500-600 level player.

And if leagues are what allows a business to thrive, why spit on the league, the league's existence or the players who comprise that league.

That's why I think your post is a bullseye. For whatever my opinion is worth....kudos on your post.

 

[garczar]

That's a bit extreme...

I'm a former league player and happy to not be in it any more... It is in the nature of a league operator/owner to try to make money for the league and themselves... that's just called business.

I don't think league is undermining real pool at all. If anything, it has the ability to open people up to it.

I'm a perfect example of that. I started playing pool about 25 years ago. I joined a league for the fun and friendly competition. I learned from some of the higher level players and had a desire to improve. I eventually maxed out my skill level in both disciplines and a few years after that I decided to quit league and move in to the real pool world. That was about 15 years ago. Now it's nothing but tournaments and some cheap action. I find that a lot more fun now that I have the ability to barely hold my own.

Do you honestly think the lifelong APA SL3 that only shoots once a week gives a fuck about pool? Yeah in their matches each week, they could be trying their best to win, but that is the only time they ever play. They don't put the time in daily in get better/run drills. Their idea of practice is going out and hitting a few racks with some teammates. That's not practice. They are going out on league for the social aspect of it and it's a fun night out for them. They don't care who wins the Mosconi cup, hell they don't even know who Mosconi is let alone the event in his namesake.

-H (see disclaimer below)

well said. agree. i quit league pool over 20yrs ago for a number of reasons. don't miss it one bit but it has its place and loads of people love it. without them there would be waaaaay less pool in the US. don't like,don't play.

 

[APA Operator]

Your making money off these people....so of course you are pro league.

You guys are legends in your own minds....til you play someone who is a real player. Bunch of heros whose daddy's told them they could have been pro.....and you can't run more than a rack when competing in the Pineapple Open.

You league ops detest real pool and do everything to undermine it for personal gain.

Of course I'm making money. That's the problem with people like you. You think those who do the work should do it for free. Then you think anyone can do it so you think we charge too much. Well, if it was so easy why doesn't someone else do it and charge less? That's how free market enterprise works. Besides, anyone can clean toilet drains too, so why do plumbers charge so much?

I have a product that appeals to tons more people than your model, people who think playing pool shouldn't be work, and you want to blame me for giving them what they want? They make a consumer's choice, and when they stop getting value for what they're paying they'll stop paying. I don't pretend I'm a good player (I am an APA 7 but have never thought I was a hero or a legend) or pretend anyone is better or worse than they are. Kudos to top players - they put in effort to get where they are, now they should reap the rewards. I don't envy anyone in any sport that does that - it's not easy. But their rewards shouldn't come directly from housewives. They should come from those who find value in what they provide. That's what anyone anywhere should do.

I play golf, I'm not very good, but I'm better than 99% of the golfers in the world. That means I can shoot in the 70's on a good day. I don't think I should be the one paying the top pros or even the bottom pros directly simply because they're better than me, and I don't think those who can't break 80 should pay me simply because I can. I'll pay anyone directly when they provide value that's worth money to me. The fact that the purses for pool tournaments come primarily from entry fees is the reason why the reward for being the best isn't enough to drive most to be the best. Golfers provide value to advertisers, so advertisers pay them to endorse their products. In turn, those advertisers provide a product that some people find value in, so those people pay the advertisers. Advertisers also pay networks for ad time because that's how they reach their customers, networks pay tournament producers because that's how they get the advertisers to value their network, yada yada. Tournaments pay title sponsors, who are nothing more than advertisers. That's how they pay most of their purses. Nowhere in there is Joe average golfer, except as a consumer of what they all produce. By the way, that's not me. I rarely watch golf tournaments. My weekend schedule is too busy. I don't buy State Farm insurance because Patrick Mahomes gets paid to endorse it. I see advertisements for what they are, and make my consumer decisions on value.

I don't idolize anyone who's the best at what they do, though. I respect them for it and I'm sure they're better than me at many other things too, just like I'm sure I'm better than them at many other things. I once met and spoke briefly with Reggie Jackson at the airport but didn't speak with him in a way that would draw attention. We were both waiting on our golf clubs at baggage claim. Mine came first and I offered to swap with him and wait for his so he could go. He smiled and said "I don't think you'd want mine - they're left-handed." I smiled back and said "I know." He smiled again and said "Thank you." That was the end of it. Acknowledgement for his accomplishments, and thanks for not drawing unwanted attention. That's all he deserves from me, and all I deserve from him.

 

[Icon of Sin]

Without league players, many businesses who provide a platform for the game would cease to exist because of lack of revenue. Those league players are quite possibly people who drop $50 to $75 a night at your establishment. Fill a room full of pool players and do that math. That isn't daddy blowing smoke or handing out participation trophies.....that's a reality.

This is another very good point when you look at it from an ever larger scale then local establishments. Cue companies alone... That random SL3 that never gets better probably pays with a cue that costs a couple hundred... and while that aint shit for a cue compared to some of the cues myself or others here own and play with, that company, whether it be Lucasi, Players, McDermott, whatever, make those cheaper end cues for those players who don't want to spend a ton, but also dont want to play off the wall...

Now all those cues out there in circulation... gonna need someone to help maintain them... cue repair people and companies, pro shops etc...

Pool leagues do collect a good chunk of money, but the customer base they bring to other pool related companies also affects the real pool world too. I go to the same cue repair guys that league players do. I shop in the same pro shops. I use the same tips. I use the same chalk.

A lot of these companies and services wouldnt exist if it wasn't for pool leagues, which would make some random cue maintenance (like a tip install) a massive pain in the ass.

 

[briankenobi]

I find that a number of people who complain about Fargo Capped tournaments are the ones that want to rob it. They have no problem "playing down" to rob a tournament, but won't "play up" because they aren't guaranteed to make any money and will probably get their head kicked in. But capping a tournament is also a business thing. You don't want to drive away a lot of the players that make your establishment money (ie drinkers). The 700+ fargo player may only be drinking pop and water so they are not going to bring in the amount that the 400-550 may.

 

[BasementDweller]

I find that a number of people who complain about Fargo Capped tournaments are the ones that want to rob it. They have no problem "playing down" to rob a tournament, but won't "play up" because they aren't guaranteed to make any money and will probably get their head kicked in. But capping a tournament is also a business thing. You don't want to drive away a lot of the players that make your establishment money (ie drinkers). The 700+ fargo player may only be drinking pop and water so they are not going to bring in the amount that the 400-550 may.

Of course we are talking about pool players so there will be some of this, but overall I think iutbr's point about using more arbitrary cutoffs is a good idea and my quiet complaint about players north of 650 being in purgatory is legit. Once you reach this area it gets harder to play anything but open events, and guess what open events have in it? The regional 750 that usually wins. So it's at least less than an ideal scenario for the better amateurs.

I will say some of the problems associated with capped events is offset by the fact that it's so much easier to know about and search for tournaments than it was 20 years ago. Everything is on FB so if you have the time, and you're willing to drive, you can find something. It's just unfortunate that as you get better, you don't get to play with the locals as much.

 

[lfigueroa]

I think in a lot of rooms there just aren't enough guys at the 700-750 level to support a worthwhile event.

Regardless, no doubt the rules of engagement have changed and in many rooms the last couple of decades the guys at the bottom just participate in handicapped events and are happy-sappy. Competing is the priory, not improving. I don't think there's anything wrong with that -- for many folks with little time to apply to the game it's more social that anything else anyways. But I recall, when I was coming up, you just had to get a spot and play for the dough with the better players. No one playing for funsies and no one was giving knowledge away.

But now it's different. Just as an example: I had a guy approach me while I was practicing a couple of weeks ago.

He said, "I hear you're one of the best one pocket players around here. The guy I can learn things from."

And I says, "OK. I don't know who told you that but..."

And he says, "I'm a pretty good player and want to learn how to play one pocket."

And I stand there waiting...

And waiting...

I'm thinking he's going to ask to play cheap at 10-7, and there's nothing. Nada. He wanted me to play him, a total stranger, for free while I taught him one pocket.

Lou Figueroa

 

[maha]

yea in this world you find all kinds. thats good and makes it what it is..

in tournaments for the masses just handicap with the system you use for all the players. so even the very weak players who still want to play a top player from the area can still do it. he may get 7 or 8 games on the wire race to ten, or some other spot, and still be a dog but will get some shots and still think after he loses that he had a chance.

that is what makes people come back and be happy.

 

[mikepage]

I'm thinking he's going to ask to play cheap at 10-7, and there's nothing. Nada. He wanted me to play him, a total stranger, for free while I taught him one pocket.

Lou Figueroa

There is another universe in which this is just not a crazy idea.

 

[lfigueroa]

There is another universe in which this is just not a crazy idea.

I have taught plenty of guys, some for free... but not a stranger, someone I have never seen before and will probably never see again.

Lou Figueroa
that's crazy
in any universe

 

[Badpenguin]

I have taught plenty of guys, some for free... but not a stranger, someone I have never seen before and will probably never see again.

Maybe you should try it some time. It is called giving back...

But feel free to take that lifetime of knowledge along with you in the hearse some day.

 

[maha]

a few times a novice stranger has asked for some tips.
im not spending my day with him but do this which only takes about two or three minutes gives him the best chance of improving.

1.show him how to stroke perfectly straight in and out along the rail using the diamonds for practice.

2. have him shoot a short straight in shot to a side pocket straight on. and tell him do it until he can always make it in the dead center.
3. and then practice stopping his cue ball then follow it different exact distances,
4. then draw it same way.

anyone that can do these 4 things "decently" can beat 80 percent of all the players in their leagues.

can you do it?

 

[APA Operator]

no one gets squeezed out if they are handicapped right and get or give the appropriate spot to the other player to give that player an or close to an equal chance of winning the match up.

and or

make it so there is a much higher element of luck in the matches, so the outcomes are less determined.

That's what makes poker so enticing to amateurs. It's a game of enough luck that someone can overcome a difference in skill but enough skill that the odds of cashing or making a final table are better for better players. I think it could be possible to introduce more luck into the format of a pool tournament without changing the rules of the game. It would look vastly different than how tournaments look now, borrowing some concepts from the game of poker itself, like the opportunity to concede a match anywhere in the race to limit one's losses or to increase the stakes in a match if you have a stranglehold. Winning a game moves you closer to winning the match, but some sort of luck is involved between games that can also move you closer to winning. The skill part entices the better players to play and the luck part entices weaker players. Odds are the better players would just whine louder. They think there should be no luck already. But nobody would be excluded.