Fargo Caps = The dumbing down of pool

[fuggles]

In my area we have run tournaments with scaled entry fee and fair match. The fair match tournaments are much better. We see more lower skill level players taking home money.

Hidden Pocket in Winnipeg runs a fair match 8 ball tournament every Sunday. Streamed with brackets on digital pool. And you don't see the 600 and 700s taking home all the money.

For my money, fair match is the way to go.

 

[maha]

doesnt it stand to reason that if things are so the weaker players can get in the money. more will start entering and help build the fields.

which in turn will increase the prize pools for the cry baby top rated players who will end up with more money anyway/

 

[easy-e]

doesnt it stand to reason that if things are so the weaker players can get in the money. more will start entering and help build the fields.

which in turn will increase the prize pools for the cry baby top rated players who will end up with more money anyway/

Of course it does! I think the main complaint here is the capping of the tournaments, not the handicapping. If the cry babies are allowed to play, maybe they'll stop crying (at least about not being able to enter).

 

[garczar]

Interesting thing about his statement.... It was actually rampant speculation in the American stock market that caused the stock market crash, which got Germany's loans called in overnight, which led to a massive depression in Germany... Which actually gave the Nazis the economic conditions they needed to get the populace behind them. Before the stock market crash in America..... The German people weren't really listening to Hitler.

But I don't expect SBC knows the actual history all that well. He just enjoys repeating catchy slogans.

So.... One could actually say that America is moderately good at using the military industrial complex to solve problems of it's own making.

Actually Germany's economic situation pre-crash were already beyond horrible. The crash was the last straw and gave wackjob Adolph&co. the leverage and soapbox to con them into his line of shit.

 

[maha]

the reason for the cappjng is that the top players in a tournament dont get so called punished enough and still run away with all the money.

if they can equalize that then it works and even the bad players will come, as they do like to play against good players but want a better chance against them which they rarely get.

 

[SBC]

Russ is not a Euro.

No but he's always crying like one with antiAmerican babble.

 

[SBC]

Interesting thing about his statement.... It was actually rampant speculation in the American stock market that caused the stock market crash, which got Germany's loans called in overnight, which led to a massive depression in Germany... Which actually gave the Nazis the economic conditions they needed to get the populace behind them. Before the stock market crash in America..... The German people weren't really listening to Hitler.

But I don't expect SBC knows the actual history all that well. He just enjoys repeating catchy slogans.

So.... One could actually say that America is moderately good at using the military industrial complex to solve problems of it's own making.

Whatever you say Pierre.

 

[SUPERSTAR]

America really isn't the best at "everything". It's just one of the best at "making money".

I bring up these points in NPR, and get shouted down by the herd.

Well...... It's all good, until this way of national thinking wrecks "your" particular interest, innit?

Tee Hee. (The schadenfreude is real...)

That’s cause the NPR flag wavers don’t like American incompetence pointed out.

As for American pool, a very small % of players enjoy competing and trying to get better.
A small % don’t take pool that seriously and just play in leagues to hang out with their friends.
ALL THE REST are perfectly happy being mid range pool players barring anyone who can actually beat them while proudly trying to steal every dime they can by sandbagging or manipulating their Fargo because there is incentive and reward for it.

 

[maha]

yea superstar you are dead on right.

and the pool world is made up of all kinds with different reasons to be there.

the group as a whole has to be dealt with. that is the hard part.

 

[alphadog]

That’s cause the NPR flag wavers don’t like American incompetence pointed out.

As for American pool, a very small % of players enjoy competing and trying to get better.
A small % don’t take pool that seriously and just play in leagues to hang out with their friends.
ALL THE REST are perfectly happy being mid range pool players barring anyone who can actually beat them while proudly trying to steal every dime they can by sandbagging or manipulating their Fargo because there is incentive and reward for it.

Are you foolish enough to believe this doesn't apply to the nation's with organized programs?

 

[Jaden]

Great post. It must really rankle all the " it's gotta be this/because of that/ could be this/should be that" FR knockers when cold/hard data stares them in the face. Of course FR is a work in progress but its clearly the best handicapping system pool has ever had. the # of people that have FR's and play in FR events speaks volumes. good work MP.

I'm not a knocker, it's the best thing out there.

Jaden

 

[The_JV]

doesnt it stand to reason that if things are so the weaker players can get in the money. more will start entering and help build the fields.

which in turn will increase the prize pools for the cry baby top rated players who will end up with more money anyway/

If the cry babies are allowed to play, maybe they'll stop crying (at least about not being able to enter).

Wait a tick... Not sure why this has turned into a lynching of players who put active effort into developing their games.

I don't believe the relative "top rated cry babies" would complain about giving up reasonable weight to the 'quiet masses'. We should keep in mind that the members of the quiet mass become the cry baby once you hit the cap that excludes them. However, what we're generally talking about are non-handicapped events with a cap. The "Jimmy is 1 point stronger than Billy Bob, who Jimmy can't beat, so Jimmy can't play" situation. Not the "Billy Bob has to give everyone in the room the world because he comes in 5 times a week just so he has an edge on Jimmy".

In the end, imo, handicapping is the dumbing down of pool, as it's always been. Fargo 'capped only' events are a way to segregate various playing fields based on spd, and should be a great way to develop players. "Come on out and don't worry about donating to Jimmy". The problem lies with TDs not providing capped events in equal frequency. One last time, that has nothing to do with Fargo, and is merely a business decision. Back in my early years I remember the top seasoned players not even supporting the bar and opting to drink water. Performance was always the excuse and I guess if you're in contention for a strong win then that's a valid enough. However, why would a room owner wants a tourney of cheap skates...?

 

[maha]

and why would a room which derives most of its income from the regs that come in and play for hours and spend money on drinks, food etc.,

not want to cater to them in a tournament. so they can get in the money and have reasons to be excited about pool and come back more often and play.

you are not punishing those that worked and got good you are just putting them into playing within their own class.

you dont have pro baseball players going into minor leagues and putting their players on the sidelines. bad analogy but the point is valid.

 

[JolietJames]

MOB has drawings to determine the cap on their tournaments. They will post the cap will be (as an example), 600-650. They will then stream a live drawing of the true number. All players must be at our below three cap at the time of the drawing. They do several every year so all levels have opportunities.
The next point is whether or not Fargo works. If it does, there should be no cap. Period.
A small local room here has open Fargo (R5 hot, yuck) tournaments on Sundays and typically get 20-35 players every week.
Players who have high Fargo ratings often have difficulties finding events that will let them participate.
This is either because Fargo does not work or that the TDs do not know what they are doing.
The same point can be made regarding men and women in the same event. Fargo works or it doesn't. If it works, separate divisions are not necessary.

 

[WobblyStroke]

The same point can be made regarding men and women in the same event. Fargo works or it doesn't. If it works, separate divisions are not necessary.

Gotta disagree here since all the cap will even out is the level of the best men and women in the tournament but crush lower ranked ladies' chances of doing well. The higher the fargo limit, the more men will be near that limit than women. So now a 520FR lady looking at 600 and under tourney may have had to contend with a handful of women (maybe that's too generous depending on the area), but with men in the field, she suddenly becomes a massive dog to cash at all with the much higher number of players ranked significantly higher than her.

Plus, many players, esp the lower ranked ones are just playing for the experience, and for some ladies I've spoken to, they enjoy the experience much more when it's just the gals.

 

[BasementDweller]

Gotta disagree here since all the cap will even out is the level of the best men and women in the tournament but crush lower ranked ladies' chances of doing well. The higher the fargo limit, the more men will be near that limit than women. So now a 520FR lady looking at 600 and under tourney may have had to contend with a handful of women (maybe that's too generous depending on the area), but with men in the field, she suddenly becomes a massive dog to cash at all with the much higher number of players ranked significantly higher than her.

Plus, many players, esp the lower ranked ones are just playing for the experience, and for some ladies I've spoken to, they enjoy the experience much more when it's just the gals.

Yep.

Fargo does a great job rating players of all shapes and sizes but we should always keep it in perspective.

If you used a performance based rating in other sports, would the expectation become that a NCAA level female sprinter would have to compete against say - high school males since they would have similar ratings? Of course not. (I know this isn't a perfect example)

We need to tread carefully when it comes to our egalitarian fervor, otherwise we could actually get the opposite of our desired outcome -- LESS female participation.

 

[alphadog]

Do you guys even read what you post ?
600's beat 520's no matter the genders.
Fargorate is only as good as the info that goes into it as well as the amount of information. There can be lags in fr rating changes due to great improvements or physical/mental changes. Enough info goes in and all is well again.

As for fargorate and handicapping I think every td should implement fr and or known abilities.

 

[gregcantrall]

right, so if you know you have no chance why even enter.

Well I am still 2 weeks behind in this thread but have had my button pushed multiple times. Soooo I must reply.
I support pool.
I gave always paid for my lessons. I expect, well nevermind. But if you think the fargo number I carry now is an indication of what it would be for me and you to meet. Mano E Mano.....You wanna play some?

 

[iusedtoberich]

Well I am still 2 weeks behind in this thread but have had my button pushed multiple times. Soooo I must reply.
I support pool.
I gave always paid for my lessons. I expect, well nevermind. But if you think the fargo number I carry now is an indication of what it would be for me and you to meet. Mano E Mano.....You wanna play some?

I have no idea what your number is, but I'll play you if you are ever in Atlanta or Philadelphia area. You can even use center ball every shot, and I can spin the rock every shot My number is pretty low at 570, I'm closer to a banger than a champion.

 

[gregcantrall]

Okay, just glancing back ...I am triggered regarding gender....uh competition .
I learned in the second grade, why I should Never hit a girl. Her big sister in the 4th grade delivered that lesson. I am a quick Lerner. a a survival skill.
My favorite gender related ass kicking was delivered by Susie O'Connor. I had beaten her husband 6 months earlier to achieve my best finish in The White Spot big event. Susie beat me 7-2. She missed 2 balls, hence my 2. I didn't give it up. She came and got it! Heck I only beat her husband 7-4. .