Fargo question- could be a dumb one…

APA7

STRAIGHT POOL SUPERMAN
Silver Member
Agree with about 650 .. 670.

Guy who beats the ghost is typically playing on his own table. Has the advantage of knowing the table very well.

When I played my best I'd beat the ghost more than not going to 5 or 7 games. That's with BIH after the break. Some games you lose because balls are so tied up after the break that you gotta try to break them out...because you can't safe the ghost.

My Fargo never reflected my best ability. I really don't play in much that's in the system. I'd say I was about 690 speed. Now I'm enjoying not playing and seeing I can still get out maybe 1outta 3 racks.

Agree with about 650 .. 670.

Guy who beats the ghost is typically playing on his own table. Has the advantage of knowing the table very well.

When I played my best I'd beat the ghost more than not going to 5 or 7 games. That's with BIH after the break. Some games you lose because balls are so tied up after the break that you gotta try to break them out...because you can't safe the ghost.

My Fargo never reflected my best ability. I really don't play in much that's in the system. I'd say I was about 690 speed. Now I'm enjoying not playing and seeing I can still get out maybe 1outta 3 racks.
Don't you mean your more around 590 fargo speed?

Brian
 

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hang-the-9

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I was in a small room where Fedor Gorst was practicing once. Nobody else there except me and another guy cleaning the tables. I didn't know who Fedor was at the time but figured out he was quite a player pretty fast.

Fedor missed once or at most twice in an hour playing the ghost. Pro-style without picking up the cue ball. His focus in practice was more intense than what I'd seen from anyone else in competition.

Reminds me of what Wimpy Lassiter once said about watching someone for an hour and if they missed, he knew that was someone he would beat.

That line is actually decently correct, I was playing in a random room a bunch of years back and overheard one of the guys there ask "is that guy a pro?", his buddy said "did you see him miss?" "Yes" "so he is not a pro" LOL
 

hang-the-9

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I think the entire Fargo thing is just dumb. In good old days when Pool was thriving, there something called open play.

If no money was involved people played who ever for competition, and too gain knowledge.

If money was involved prople asked for handicap.

Back then there were no Pool leagues. Pool was one of few recreational options that was affordable for working people.

Fargo is nothing but a tracking tool of who beats who and by how much, just like what people did for years in their heads or on notebooks or whatever. It just so happens that this info is a good tool to also do handicapping, which has also been done for ages. It's just based on science and data keeping now more than on feelings and eyewitness accounts of how someone plays. Every other part of pool still exists, and I actually think from traveling around and meeting players that maybe half of the decent players, especially anyone over 50, and even less of the weaker players, has no idea what Fargo is even if they heard the term used. Heck, I met decent players that have never used or seen a template rack.

The #1 question I get from people is "what is your APA rating"? Not about Fargo or how good I am in ABCD rating, etc... Most players still use APA as the gold standard of how good someone is, and for many just being in a league or entering a tournament is an amazing feat that makes someone good LOL.
 

CocoboloCowboy

Cowboys are my hero's
Silver Member
Well I honestly have never understood handicapping systems unless it would consider the player past experence.

Say a player only play 8 ball on bar boxes, but decide to try a Bank Pool tournament on 9 footers.

How could you handicap that person.

Pro Event are open so there Fargo means nothing, because all player are equal.

In Pool there are Six popular games, two popular size table. Excluding Snooker & 3C.

So factor in that info, hard to give person number, or fair handicap. If say they are someone not competing frequently.
 

garczar

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Fargo is nothing but a tracking tool of who beats who and by how much, just like what people did for years in their heads or on notebooks or whatever. It just so happens that this info is a good tool to also do handicapping, which has also been done for ages. It's just based on science and data keeping now more than on feelings and eyewitness accounts of how someone plays. Every other part of pool still exists, and I actually think from traveling around and meeting players that maybe half of the decent players, especially anyone over 50, and even less of the weaker players, has no idea what Fargo is even if they heard the term used. Heck, I met decent players that have never used or seen a template rack.

The #1 question I get from people is "what is your APA rating"? Not about Fargo or how good I am in ABCD rating, etc... Most players still use APA as the gold standard of how good someone is, and for many just being in a league or entering a tournament is an amazing feat that makes someone good LOL.
WOW. First time i've ever heard 'gold standard' and APA used in the same sentence. APA is a joke.
 
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CocoboloCowboy

Cowboys are my hero's
Silver Member
WOW. First time i've ever 'gold standard' and APA used in the same sentence. APA is a joke.

APA might not be your personal cup of tea, but many people enjoy it.

APA player buy Cues, Cases,etc. keep Pool rooms, and bar open.

Wonder how many of these business would close with out league players?

So the last thing I will say is having actually been in Las Vegas when BCAPL was at Riveria the place was walk to wall with people playing pool, and buying from the vendors. That was a good thing for all on receiving end of those spending money.
 
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gregcantrall

Center Ball
Silver Member
Fargo is nothing but a tracking tool of who beats who and by how much, just like what people did for years in their heads or on notebooks or whatever. It just so happens that this info is a good tool to also do handicapping,
It's a good tool. Won't tell me who will win just giving an indicator of probability for a savy gambler.
While it's good there is an inherent weak spot. The discussion of which could get a player banned from future events that use the system. Intentional use of which is known as Sandbagging and Sandbagger is a Dispicable name.
Sandbagger was thrown around a lot back in the '80s when speaking of the handicap tournaments employing the US*** uh whatever that system was. I carried a rating of 55 but played even with the 90s and even won in a race to 7 nineball against a 130(considered pro). I wasn't trying to sandbag, just fell in the systems weak area. The Fargo rate has a much smaller weakness and is a good system....but not perfect.
My Fargo is easily confirmed and honestly earned. I am of the opinion that I am a bargain at my current rating. Have no problem putting my money where my mouth is.😉😁
 

hang-the-9

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
It's a good tool. Won't tell me who will win just giving an indicator of probability for a savy gambler.
While it's good there is an inherent weak spot. The discussion of which could get a player banned from future events that use the system. Intentional use of which is known as Sandbagging and Sandbagger is a Dispicable name.
Sandbagger was thrown around a lot back in the '80s when speaking of the handicap tournaments employing the US*** uh whatever that system was. I carried a rating of 55 but played even with the 90s and even won in a race to 7 nineball against a 130(considered pro). I wasn't trying to sandbag, just fell in the systems weak area. The Fargo rate has a much smaller weakness and is a good system....but not perfect.
My Fargo is easily confirmed and honestly earned. I am of the opinion that I am a bargain at my current rating. Have no problem putting my money where my mouth is.😉😁

That rating system was probably USAPL, it went from like 30s to 150. I was actually ranked a 150 after the first week of the system going into place due to one strong race to 3 I had against a weaker player, which meant I would be playing even with anyone on the planet LOL. After a while I dropped down to the 90-100 range where I was till the system went over to Fargo which made me like a 570 or something. I don't remember exactly what it was. But basically the 80+ was a "good" player, solid B players and up. Even at the 100 level in USAPL that was one of the top numbers in the whole area of the league.
 

hang-the-9

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
WOW. First time i've ever heard 'gold standard' and APA used in the same sentence. APA is a joke.

For many players APA is all they know, so it's a common yardstick of skill you can use all over the country. You are either a bad player, or an APA player in the minds of many people. Probably a Pro also I would guess, so to the minds of a lot of just normal players the rating is "Bad, APA, Pro" LOL

If I say I play like an APA 6 or 7, for most players they know that means "good", if I say my Fargo is 550 or I am a B+ or A- or can run a few racks, that is harder to quantify. I've been to quite a few places over the past several years, and that is pretty much what I hear in any area pool hall or bar, "you play good, you must be in a league, are you in the APA? What's your APA rating". When I did not play in any leagues for a while people would refuse to believe me when I told them, they were like "no you are pulling my leg, you know how to play you MUST be in a league!" LOL
 
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Nick8400

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
I don’t play tournaments anymore, rarely did. So Fargo means next to nothing to me from that perspective. All tournaments around here are on the bar box, making that life even less interesting.

When gambling, I never negotiated too much, so Fargo means even less. I make a game I think is close, play two sets, and adjust. I am simple action. Or easy. It’s a thin line!! 😆😉😜

Nowadays, My pool playing consists mostly of me practicing by myself a few hours a week. It’s peaceful and I have a very nice pool hall to play in. I do it more to relax and play a game I love than anything. If I get the itch, I’ll still gamble something cheap, rarely.

I Thought about playing the ghost at the end of each week just to kinda see where I am at. Put some simulated pressure on myself. Make it a bit more fun.

So I am trying to gauge how good I would have to play to have a chance to win a set. As of right now, I think I need the 7 ball from the ghost to have a consistent chance. So that tells you my speed!!

I love how we went down the Fargo rabbit hole again! I wasn’t trying to split the atom in my question, but it’s been fun reading everyone’s input.

Thanks all. 😉
 

sjm

Older and Wiser
Silver Member
That's pretty good playing. Definit. over 600. I'd guess 650ish.
Yeah, the consensus has always fallen in the 640-660 range to be about 50% to beat the 9-ball ghost. That's also about the cutoff for "A" level play, so if you don't have at least even action against the 9-ball ghost, you are probably not an "A" level player or better.
 

sjm

Older and Wiser
Silver Member
I'll let any 650 play the 9-ball ghost on a standard 9' Diamond and bet against him (or her). I'd say a player would need to be 700ish to beat the ghost consistently.
Yeah, on a tough table, it probably takes a 675, so I'm with you here.
 

hang-the-9

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
--- snip ----

I Thought about playing the ghost at the end of each week just to kinda see where I am at. Put some simulated pressure on myself. Make it a bit more fun.

So I am trying to gauge how good I would have to play to have a chance to win a set. As of right now, I think I need the 7 ball from the ghost to have a consistent chance. So that tells you my speed!!

I love how we went down the Fargo rabbit hole again! I wasn’t trying to split the atom in my question, but it’s been fun reading everyone’s input.

Thanks all. 😉

There are actually many versions of the "ghost" game you can play, not just using all 9 balls. For players that are not at a high level they can play the 4-ball ghost, 6 ball ghost, 7 ball ghost, whatever, so you can see how many rotation balls you can run out and beat the ghost in consistently. At my level I can beat the 7-ball ghost most of the time, the 8-ball ghost some of the time, and I don't remember if I ever beat the 9-ball ghost. I do know that may of the run-out chances I have in a tournament or just a set, it ends on me hooking myself when playing position. So, I get a clean open rack, and at some point, I am behind a ball and need to kick. From that I know from that there is almost 0 chance I am beating the 9-ball ghost. If you can beat the 7-ball ghost, that is a B+ player. If I can find a way to get rid of that 1/8 - 1 inch position error during the rack, I would go up in my run-out percentage immensely.
 

CocoboloCowboy

Cowboys are my hero's
Silver Member
Well the Old Arizona Rating System was run by the Bar & Room Oener for most part. Few player were on rating committee that assigned rating numbers.

The majority of the Tournament's were open to the B & C players, most of the entry fee were under 20 bucks, price money for a First place win was maybe $150.00 or less.

The A players complained there were few tournaments they were allowed to play in.

Think the Room & Bar owners did what they did, because the B & C player were the people who as group spent more money.

I am sure the Bar & Room owner were looking to stay open, and understood money paid the bills at month end.

Yes there were s few of monthly tournaments in Arizona for the A, or Pro Level players. This number was small, maybe 10-15%. Very few of the B or C player participated in these events.

Reason I think was they had zero chance of winning anything. So they the B & C player participated were they might go home with something.
 

Cameron Smith

is kind of hungry...
Silver Member
One other caveat...

Beating the 9 Ball Ghost 20 years ago vs now, I'd say it took at least a 20 point higher Fargo to beat it back then, if not more. I can only remember ever seeing top players beating the 9 ball ghost with a wooden rack. It seemed they constantly had difficulties to deal with -- combos, clusters, banks, and kisses. Watch any random guy playing the ghost now and all you'll see are wide open tables.
I think the evolution of breaking strategies has as much to do with it. No one is trying to crush the rack like Johnny Archer anymore, instead they are doing controlled medium breaks. I tried a few racks with the delta rack last night doing a medium break and I still wasn’t getting many clusters. The template may help players beat the pro ghost, but I think the guys beating the ghost in the ghost challenge thread would have similar results just by virtue of increased breaking knowledge today among good players.
 

gregcantrall

Center Ball
Silver Member
That rating system was probably USAPL, it went from like 30s to 150. I was actually ranked a 150 after the first week of the system going into place due to one strong race to 3 I had against a weaker player, which meant I would be playing even with anyone on the planet LOL. After a while I dropped down to the 90-100 range where I was till the system went over to Fargo which made me like a 570 or something. I don't remember exactly what it was. But basically the 80+ was a "good" player, solid B players and up. Even at the 100 level in USAPL that was one of the top numbers in the whole area of the league.
You got it! Your assessment of the USAPL is spot on. Looks like we went in opposite directions due to the weakness.
I have never liked handicap events regardless of whether I was receiving or giving the spot. I believe in paying for my lessons. It's much more rewarding beating a higher rated player even. With a spot it's more, uh Oh yea woopi.
 

easy-e

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
Well the Old Arizona Rating System was run by the Bar & Room Oener for most part. Few player were on rating committee that assigned rating numbers.

The majority of the Tournament's were open to the B & C players, most of the entry fee were under 20 bucks, price money for a First place win was maybe $150.00 or less.

The A players complained there were few tournaments they were allowed to play in.

Think the Room & Bar owners did what they did, because the B & C player were the people who as group spent more money.

I am sure the Bar & Room owner were looking to stay open, and understood money paid the bills at month end.

Yes there were s few of monthly tournaments in Arizona for the A, or Pro Level players. This number was small, maybe 10-15%. Very few of the B or C player participated in these events.

Reason I think was they had zero chance of winning anything. So they the B & C player participated were they might go home with something.
Since all of the tournaments are handicapped by Fargo ratings, why not open the tournaments up to all players? Since everyone believes in Fargo, and most people think they're under rated, why on Earth would they keep capping tournaments? I'm not joking, they have a 643 and under tournament... WTF?
 

easy-e

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
You got it! Your assessment of the USAPL is spot on. Looks like we went in opposite directions due to the weakness.
I have never liked handicap events regardless of whether I was receiving or giving the spot. I believe in paying for my lessons. It's much more rewarding beating a higher rated player even. With a spot it's more, uh Oh yea woopi.
USPPA was also pretty close to the ratings you mentioned. You're a west coast guy, right? USPPA was pretty big out there before Tony ripped everyone off.
 

hang-the-9

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
You got it! Your assessment of the USAPL is spot on. Looks like we went in opposite directions due to the weakness.
I have never liked handicap events regardless of whether I was receiving or giving the spot. I believe in paying for my lessons. It's much more rewarding beating a higher rated player even. With a spot it's more, uh Oh yea woopi.

Yep, I never really think I "beat" someone unless we were playing even. I don't know how many players I see are all exited to win vs a better player when they were playing a 7-3 race LOL. However, I do think that I do well against a better player if I end up with a good score for me. I have played Mike Dechaine a bunch of races over the years, and if I get to like 4-7 I feel pretty good. I just would not think I actually beat him if he was giving me a spot.
 

gregcantrall

Center Ball
Silver Member
In the Fargorate discussion don't forget the robustness factor. Even with the 250 entries or whatever the minimum is to call a rating established there's a wide range for adjustment. Players with large robustness numbers can be analized by 25 point differences accurately. A minimum robustness number could still be off by 50 points easily.
 
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