Fargo question

mvp

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
How does a person get a higher than normal starter rating without having any stats to pull from?
 

mikepage

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
How does a person get a higher than normal starter rating without having any stats to pull from?

Starter ratings (guesses) are not really part of the system. They are just a convenience so that leagues and tournaments can include players who are not yet rated. This applies to players with no games in the system as well as players with fewer than 200 games in the system. The guesses can come from anywhere --local knowledge, a local B+, A-, etc rating, an APA rating, and so forth.

It is not necessary to have a starter rating.
 

mvp

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Thanks mike, i noticed I had a rating and haven't played in anything lol
 

Dan_B

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
^:smile: is that kind of being "liked" on Fakeb%#k? ^

...good topic question, being a new season and all.

Say mike, if one has played the 2 previous seasons - BCA - can those scores be found
approve/recognized as legit, entered into a first season of posting into fargorate?
That would put me over the 200 games played.
 

Tommy-D

World's best B player...
Silver Member
Are you able to assign a rating for old matches like the Efren/Earl race to 120,or any of the races to 100 that Shane has played? Tommy D.
 

hang-the-9

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
^:smile: is that kind of being "liked" on Fakeb%#k? ^

...good topic question, being a new season and all.

Say mike, if one has played the 2 previous seasons - BCA - can those scores be found
approve/recognized as legit, entered into a first season of posting into fargorate?
That would put me over the 200 games played.

When the USAPL league went to Fargo, all the match ratings were moved into Fargo as well. I have over 1,200 games in the systems and a majority are from past USAPL league sessions. BCA games should be in Fargo as well, if reported. We had some players at a tournament that played in the BCA league, paid their dues, but not a single match was in the system.
 

Poolplaya9

Tellin' it like it is...
Silver Member
When the USAPL league went to Fargo, all the match ratings were moved into Fargo as well. I have over 1,200 games in the systems and a majority are from past USAPL league sessions. BCA games should be in Fargo as well, if reported. We had some players at a tournament that played in the BCA league, paid their dues, but not a single match was in the system.

To my knowledge it is still the case that many BCAPL sactioned leagues do not report their match results to FargoRate, nor are they required to. Obviously it would be great for the players and the game if they all did (and if everybody else did too for that matter). The question is, should BCAPL make reporting all matches to FargoRate a requirement and condition for sanctioning?

On the surface this would seem to be a great idea, but perhaps they have some reasons for not wanting to require it, or at least for wanting to wait for a bit before requiring it. One or more of those reasons could even be things that we may not have thought of or that may not be obvious to those of us on the outside looking in.

I do know that because of the way they are set up, for most people it would take a little time and effort to submit all the individual match results in the format that is needed by FargoRate, and there are many people just don't want to do any more work than they have to when that is the case. Also as I recall (although I could be wrong on this) the LMS software that can automatically handle the reporting for you has a cost associated with it. Perhaps the BCAPL is concerned that if they required all leagues to report all match results to FargoRate that some leagues would choose not to be sanctioned or switch to another league if they didn't want to take on that extra work that would be required (even though it is fairly minimal) or pay for the LMS that would do it for them.

I suspect that they will require it at some point, but they wanted to wait until FargoRate was widely known and popular, and until they had their LMS in great working condition, so that there would be as little reason as possible for resistance to that idea. There is also the small possibility that CSI and/or FargoRate aren't quite ready to take steps such as those that would take their partnership to that level of permanency, because once FargoRate reporting becomes a requirement they are in certain ways linking themselves together inextricably. All the above is pure speculation on my part based on nothing more than a few conceivable possibilities, and as said they may have other reasons entirely that wouldn't be readily apparent to us. Perhaps CSI will weigh in on whether or not they intend to at some point in the future make reporting to FargoRate a requirement for sanctioning, and if that is the case, when they are guessing that might take place.
 
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mikepage

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
To my knowledge it is still the case that many BCAPL sactioned leagues do not report their match results to FargoRate, nor are they required to. Obviously it would be great for the players and the game if they all did (and if everybody else did too for that matter). The question is, should BCAPL make reporting all matches to FargoRate a requirement and condition for sanctioning?

On the surface this would seem to be a great idea, but perhaps they have some reasons for not wanting to require it, or at least for wanting to wait for a bit before requiring it. One or more of those reasons could even be things that we may not have thought of or that may not be obvious to those of us on the outside looking in.

I do know that because of the way they are set up, for most people it would take a little time and effort to submit all the individual match results in the format that is needed by FargoRate, and there are many people just don't want to do any more work than they have to when that is the case. Also as I recall (although I could be wrong on this) the LMS software that can automatically handle the reporting for you has a cost associated with it. Perhaps the BCAPL is concerned that if they required all leagues to report all match results to FargoRate that some leagues would choose not to be sanctioned or switch to another league if they didn't want to take on that extra work that would be required (even though it is fairly minimal) or pay for the LMS that would do it for them.

I suspect that they will require it at some point, but they wanted to wait until FargoRate was widely known and popular, and until they had their LMS in great working condition, so that there would be as little reason as possible for resistance to that idea. There is also the small possibility that CSI and/or FargoRate aren't quite ready to take steps such as those that would take their partnership to that level of permanency, because once FargoRate reporting becomes a requirement they are in certain ways linking themselves together inextricably. All the above is pure speculation on my part based on nothing more than a few conceivable possibilities, and as said they may have other reasons entirely that wouldn't be readily apparent to us. Perhaps CSI will weigh in on whether or not they intend to at some point in the future make reporting to FargoRate a requirement for sanctioning, and if that is the case, when they are guessing that might take place.

While I of course cannot speak for CSI, I do have a few comments.

(1) LMS is the only mechanism to get league data into FargoRate. There is some fraction of older non-LMS league data we were able to get in with much effort at some point in the past.

(2) There is no cost for using LMS for all BCAPL sanctioned leagues/divisions. That is, if your league sanctions with CSI at $15/player/year, you and your players get basically everything such membership has traditionally offered and also now LMS and Fargo Ratings and associated mobile APPs.

(3) LMS is ready for a broad range of league formats
--- 3 or 4 or 5 or 6 or ... player teams
--- 8-Ball, 9-Ball, or 10-Ball or a combination
--- various formats including round-robin, round-robin where you play each opponent multiple games, etc.
---scoring by game, using 10-point scoring, and using 17-point scoring
---no handicap or handicap using Fargo Ratings (or traditional handicap approaches, though I don't know why anybody would want to do that.)

LMS is recording about 40,000 games a week (4-week average) now, and that number is increasing rapidly with many new leagues and divisions being added each week.

(4) LMS cannot yet handle some formats. This includes singles (we've got some cool things in the works) and scotch doubles. We've got other cool things in the works mixing singles and scotch doubles.

(5) The relationship between FargoRate and CSI is strong, positive and productive, and there is every reason to believe that will be the case for a long time. CSI is an innovative, forward-looking organization, and we are honored to be working with them.

The pool world will be a lot better place (number and quality of events--local, regional, national, and international for players at all levels, recognition of excellence and support of pro-level pool) once nearly all league players and tournament players are coupled through LMS and other mechanisms. I am convinced of this--it is my life work.

My view is that CSI has put substantial resources toward and in some ways retooled itself in a way that helps lay the groundwork for a game-changing transformation in pool. I would not recommend to CSI that it does something purposefully that has a short-term effect of reducing its membership. There are different paths toward achieving the long-term goal. And CSI should avoid paths that involve short-term existential risk. CSI should not, imo, require every player in a tournament has an established Fargo Rating. Nor should it require, once again imo, every league division use LMS.

We hear a lot amongst local league divisions the phrase "Well, we're old school... ." And we've seen the following transformation a lot. There will be a contingent resistant to change. There will be another contingent that doesn't care. And there will be a third contingent--perhaps a smaller one--that sees and is excited by the value of Fargo Ratings and being connected to the world. This third contingent grows, makes Fargo Ratings happen, and in time the entire group is happy about it.

A pretty clear trend we are seeing is that the local weekly tournaments that have arranged getting games into FargoRate are growing and others in the same city are not. Players want it, and such player pressure is getting bigger.
 

Poolplaya9

Tellin' it like it is...
Silver Member
(1) LMS is the only mechanism to get league data into FargoRate.

(2) There is no cost for using LMS for all BCAPL sanctioned leagues/divisions. That is, if your league sanctions with CSI at $15/player/year, you and your players get basically everything such membership has traditionally offered and also now LMS and Fargo Ratings and associated mobile APPs.

And CSI should avoid paths that involve short-term existential risk. CSI should not, imo, require every player in a tournament has an established Fargo Rating. Nor should it require, once again imo, every league division use LMS.

We hear a lot amongst local league divisions the phrase "Well, we're old school... ." And we've seen the following transformation a lot. There will be a contingent resistant to change. There will be another contingent that doesn't care. And there will be a third contingent--perhaps a smaller one--that sees and is excited by the value of Fargo Ratings and being connected to the world. This third contingent grows, makes Fargo Ratings happen, and in time the entire group is happy about it.

A pretty clear trend we are seeing is that the local weekly tournaments that have arranged getting games into FargoRate are growing and others in the same city are not. Players want it, and such player pressure is getting bigger.

I could have sworn I recall league directors having the option to submit their match results manually in the necessary format, and one in particular saying he was doing it. Is that something that used to occur but where the policy has been changed, perhaps because it is no longer necessary now that the LMS is available? I know other random non-league events or tournaments also used to be able to submit match results in the proper format as long as the event results were publicly posted/verifiable. Is this still the case for the non-league events including those with no affiliation to CSI?

When the LMS software was still being developed, I also thought I recalled hearing that there might end up being either a one time up front charge or a usage charge of some kind, albeit one that would have made it a great value, but I never did hear what was ultimately decided. So BCAPL sanctioning includes free usage of great LMS and associated apps etc? What a great thing for all the leagues! It would have been worth paying a little extra for IMO.

Thanks for the above clarifications that you shared as well as the other insights. I too believe FargoRate is one of the better things to happen to pool since the invention of the leather tip.
 

mvp

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I just thought it was weird, I haven't played league in many many years and no tournaments in a over a yr and when I looked I had a starter rating,
 

iusedtoberich

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
....snip....
When the LMS software was still being developed, I also thought I recalled hearing that there might end up being either a one time up front charge or a usage charge of some kind, albeit one that would have made it a great value, but I never did hear what was ultimately decided.
....snip....

I recall this also. I just checked the fargorate website FAQ's, and it looks like the app will be free to league members. But paid for players not in any leagues via an annual fee. Below in red is the text copy/pasted:


A mobile application is being developed that will serve as the main interface between a player and the FargoRate system. The FargoRate app, amongst other interesting features, will allow a player to review his or her own match history. The FargoRate app will be available at no cost to all BCAPL and USAPL sanctioned league players as well as to all CSI Associate Members (formerly player members). All others will have full access to all features of the APP for a nominal annual fee by becoming a CSI Basic Member.
 

iusedtoberich

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Mike: I've been following your system since the beginning very intently. I'm not a league player, and avoid leagues like the plague since trying them two seasons 20 years ago. That said, how are non-league events being entered? You say 40k games per week are going in with the leagues. Are you still manually entering non-league events? I know you used to post once in a while asking for scores and such.

I guess my main point is I can't figure out how a local room with a weekly event can switch to your system. Or a regional tour. There is nothing on the fargorate website that shows this.

Case in point, on the other thread with the Optician, how did the back pocket tournament get entered into your system? Did the promoter email you the individual scores? And according to the FAQ, it should not even be in the system:

Fargo ratings are based on the results of 8-ball, 9-ball, 10-ball games played on either 9-foot or 7-foot tables.
 
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JC

Coos Cues
Gold Member
To my knowledge it is still the case that many BCAPL sactioned leagues do not report their match results to FargoRate, nor are they required to. Obviously it would be great for the players and the game if they all did (and if everybody else did too for that matter). The question is, should BCAPL make reporting all matches to FargoRate a requirement and condition for sanctioning?

On the surface this would seem to be a great idea, but perhaps they have some reasons for not wanting to require it, or at least for wanting to wait for a bit before requiring it. One or more of those reasons could even be things that we may not have thought of or that may not be obvious to those of us on the outside looking in.

I do know that because of the way they are set up, for most people it would take a little time and effort to submit all the individual match results in the format that is needed by FargoRate, and there are many people just don't want to do any more work than they have to when that is the case. Also as I recall (although I could be wrong on this) the LMS software that can automatically handle the reporting for you has a cost associated with it. Perhaps the BCAPL is concerned that if they required all leagues to report all match results to FargoRate that some leagues would choose not to be sanctioned or switch to another league if they didn't want to take on that extra work that would be required (even though it is fairly minimal) or pay for the LMS that would do it for them.

I suspect that they will require it at some point, but they wanted to wait until FargoRate was widely known and popular, and until they had their LMS in great working condition, so that there would be as little reason as possible for resistance to that idea. There is also the small possibility that CSI and/or FargoRate aren't quite ready to take steps such as those that would take their partnership to that level of permanency, because once FargoRate reporting becomes a requirement they are in certain ways linking themselves together inextricably. All the above is pure speculation on my part based on nothing more than a few conceivable possibilities, and as said they may have other reasons entirely that wouldn't be readily apparent to us. Perhaps CSI will weigh in on whether or not they intend to at some point in the future make reporting to FargoRate a requirement for sanctioning, and if that is the case, when they are guessing that might take place.

The reason it's not required I believe is primarily that LMS is buggy and if they required people to use it there would be a shit storm of discontent to deal with. So it's optional right now until and unless LMS works right.

LMS is holding back the entire Fargorate system from blossoming.

JC
 

PoloBob

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
While I of course cannot speak for CSI, I do have a few comments.

(1) LMS is the only mechanism to get league data into FargoRate. There is some fraction of older non-LMS league data we were able to get in with much effort at some point in the past.

(2) There is no cost for using LMS for all BCAPL sanctioned leagues/divisions. That is, if your league sanctions with CSI at $15/player/year, you and your players get basically everything such membership has traditionally offered and also now LMS and Fargo Ratings and associated mobile APPs.

(3) LMS is ready for a broad range of league formats
--- 3 or 4 or 5 or 6 or ... player teams
--- 8-Ball, 9-Ball, or 10-Ball or a combination
--- various formats including round-robin, round-robin where you play each opponent multiple games, etc.
---scoring by game, using 10-point scoring, and using 17-point scoring
---no handicap or handicap using Fargo Ratings (or traditional handicap approaches, though I don't know why anybody would want to do that.)

LMS is recording about 40,000 games a week (4-week average) now, and that number is increasing rapidly with many new leagues and divisions being added each week.

(4) LMS cannot yet handle some formats. This includes singles (we've got some cool things in the works) and scotch doubles. We've got other cool things in the works mixing singles and scotch doubles.

(5) The relationship between FargoRate and CSI is strong, positive and productive, and there is every reason to believe that will be the case for a long time. CSI is an innovative, forward-looking organization, and we are honored to be working with them.

The pool world will be a lot better place (number and quality of events--local, regional, national, and international for players at all levels, recognition of excellence and support of pro-level pool) once nearly all league players and tournament players are coupled through LMS and other mechanisms. I am convinced of this--it is my life work.

My view is that CSI has put substantial resources toward and in some ways retooled itself in a way that helps lay the groundwork for a game-changing transformation in pool. I would not recommend to CSI that it does something purposefully that has a short-term effect of reducing its membership. There are different paths toward achieving the long-term goal. And CSI should avoid paths that involve short-term existential risk. CSI should not, imo, require every player in a tournament has an established Fargo Rating. Nor should it require, once again imo, every league division use LMS.

We hear a lot amongst local league divisions the phrase "Well, we're old school... ." And we've seen the following transformation a lot. There will be a contingent resistant to change. There will be another contingent that doesn't care. And there will be a third contingent--perhaps a smaller one--that sees and is excited by the value of Fargo Ratings and being connected to the world. This third contingent grows, makes Fargo Ratings happen, and in time the entire group is happy about it.

A pretty clear trend we are seeing is that the local weekly tournaments that have arranged getting games into FargoRate are growing and others in the same city are not. Players want it, and such player pressure is getting bigger.
The only league available in my area is APA. Is there anything in talk to establish a conversion or any type of reporting with APA?
 
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