FargoRate experiences in your area?

FargoRate

One stroke-
Everyone who reads AZBilliards knows you don't like Fargo, however please post real facts.

Fargo is used in conjunction with CSI (BCAPL and USAPL). I'm pretty sure the example you are using of a team going to nationals 10 times, is probably an APA situation. In BCAPL, any team or individual can play in the Nationals, you don't have to win a league,regional, or state event.

APA data has never been entered into the FargoRate system. There will be player overlap, because players play in several different leagues.

I think that Fargo will become a standard rating system for players. And the more data causes more accurate tracking. It has been pointed out several times that trying to beat FargoRate is much more difficult (time and money) to manipulate. The reason is obvious: if you go 2 and out, it takes a long time to get sufficient games to have an effect on a rating. On the other hand, if you win an event, you can accumulate 50 games in one tournament.

I wish you would have a more open mind. Maybe the best solution is for you to just not participate?

Respectfully,
Mark Griffin


Lol ya I actualy just plucked every thing I say out of thin air one team I know of has been to Vegas over a dozen times I can assure you they don't do that without creative ways to keep players handicaps in check
That's not the point the point is would Fargo stop that from happening
My bet is no it would not or it may at first till the cheaters figure how to beat the new system wouldn't take them long
1
 
I just want know how I can input scores from my own matches. Yet to see a good answer on that, and I have searched threads.

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You can't. Too many issues, such as manipulation, can happen


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First thing you need to understand is it is just the handicap system of the BCAPL. All the other leagues (APA, VNEA, TAP, NAPA), have their own system and there is a zero percent chance that the other leagues will share their data with any other league. What looks like is happening is the BCAPL wants to get more players, to compete against the other leagues that are more in line with the lesser players (APA, NAPA, TAP). What is happening is "sandbagging", now that the BCAPL has gone the way of FargoRating. The big difference is that the APA pays out $25,000 for first and disqualifies around eight teams per year. So the system caters to those individuals that wants to play one time a week, or to someone that players multiple times a week that only plays their league matches and then goes home. I myself would rather win something and be moved up than to be moved to another division just because of a rating number. But people these days don't put n the work to get better. I have a full time job and for me I want to get better so I put in the time and effort. That means taking lessons, hitting tournaments and hitting balls. Then all I hear is you play to good to play in the open, or this division or that. But the fact remains I have not won on any national stage. State yes, but that has been over eight years. I would rather see everyone put into the same division and who wins wins? But no we want our leagues to listen more to the CRY BABIES!

It is nearly impossible to sandbag your way to a low fargo rating. Anyone who tries will find that it's a very very expensive endeavor which will be wiped out the first time they show some speed and win a tournament. To sandbag you would need to go two and out and lose sets without winning any games until you have 200 games in. Then if you wanted to cash on that effort you would have to then WIN a lot of games to win the event which would pump up your fargo rating heavily.
 
First I have been around FargoRate for 5 years and here is what I have experienced

I am able to actually watch my progress, whether it is up or down by my rating.

My rating doesn't consist of one, two, or more people watching just a handful of games to give me their perception of my rating. Have you ever asked a league operator how do I know I moved from a B to an A? Have you ever played in different towns and have a different rating?

We use it a lot to match up. I know if somebody is 100 points higher he basically will win twice as many games. It is very accurate.

It makes league teams, scotch doubles teams, etc more even when you have a cap.

It makes for awesome tourneys like the quadrangle, knowing you are playing people around your level.

Where I play we all know our rating and it is talked about all the time. Everyone is trying to improve.

It takes sandbagging out of the game.

I could go on but I had a little too much last night


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Tap Tap. Please get more people from your area to chime in. Had a big debate about this the other night and one of the better players in our area had people nodding at his critique of Fargo Ratings even though all the answers to his complaints are out there now.
 
I just did a search on my phone. Where did you get an app? Biggest issue I see is, my rating is for data from 2012. Been active in leagues ever since. Also when I look up others I know play league. They have no rating. Names are there but no robustness and no rating. Not blaming Fargo. Just not sure why there is no data.

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fairmatch.fargorate.com

It's not an app but instead is a website formatted to feel like an app on the phone.
 
It is nearly impossible to sandbag your way to a low fargo rating. Anyone who tries will find that it's a very very expensive endeavor which will be wiped out the first time they show some speed and win a tournament. To sandbag you would need to go two and out and lose sets without winning any games until you have 200 games in. Then if you wanted to cash on that effort you would have to then WIN a lot of games to win the event which would pump up your fargo rating heavily.



Mike has gone over this. You and I, knowing Mike, understand his intelligence and work. Unfortunately, most don't know Mike therefore they will continue to try to poke holes not knowing Mike tries to poke his own holes


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Tap Tap. Please get more people from your area to chime in. Had a big debate about this the other night and one of the better players in our area had people nodding at his critique of Fargo Ratings even though all the answers to his complaints are out there now.

The thing about it John is that the detractors are so small in number (though vocal) they will be irrelevant once things get rolling. Most in OKC will feel like Rob from ND does in the end.....IMO

Press on...let Fargorate do it's thing!

Ken
 
One stroke-
Everyone who reads AZBilliards knows you don't like Fargo, however please post real facts.

Fargo is used in conjunction with CSI (BCAPL and USAPL). I'm pretty sure the example you are using of a team going to nationals 10 times, is probably an APA situation. In BCAPL, any team or individual can play in the Nationals, you don't have to win a league,regional, or state event.

APA data has never been entered into the FargoRate system. There will be player overlap, because players play in several different leagues.

I think that Fargo will become a standard rating system for players. And the more data causes more accurate tracking. It has been pointed out several times that trying to beat FargoRate is much more difficult (time and money) to manipulate. The reason is obvious: if you go 2 and out, it takes a long time to get sufficient games to have an effect on a rating. On the other hand, if you win an event, you can accumulate 50 games in one tournament.

I wish you would have a more open mind. Maybe the best solution is for you to just not participate?

Respectfully,
Mark Griffin

I would like to add to this that even if a person tried to manipulate Fargo through league play, BCA/VNEA format they would be kind of SOL as well. Because Fargo has everyone connected to everyone else - losing five games a week for ten weeks in league only nets you 50 individual games against 50 individuals. In other words it barely moves the needle in either direction win or lose I think. You need lots of games against lots of opponents to get an accurate read.

In APA of course it's easy to manipulate the rating of a player because their formula is known enough that players and scorekeepers and league operators know exactly what to do to keep a player's handicap low. That's why every year the mini tournaments out there are filled with APA 5s who are runout players. The minis at APA nationals don't require any regional qualification to play in. One just has to show up and play with a valid membership and a handicap. No one is checking the actual skill level of the players as far as I saw it and hustlers are taking a LOT of money out of the room each year by easily winning mini-tournaments they shouldn't be in.

They do invest the time and money during league to keep their handicaps low for the payout at the end of the year robbing the minis at nationals.

Using FargoRate such a strategy, lose 200 games to the same 100 people, won't work because it's going to be much harder to keep a low rating once you win a few minis, which is win 15 games against 3 different people. And better not win a tournament during league season if you're trying to sandbag......lots of wins pumped into the system.

Games won/lost coupled with strength of the opponent is an objective way to rate players which requires no human subjectivity in the process other than to tweak the formula based on the data input to insure that ratings match expectations within the acceptable variance. Simple.

Such rating methods have long been the accepted standard for many sports beyond pool.

And yes, they do account for the amount of "dog" in a player in so far as formal competitive pool goes....because players who dog it under pressure have lower win ratios and their rating reflects the totality of all that makes them the player they are. In other words a guy who can run out as well as SVB but doesn't do it when the pressure is on is then simply NOT as good as SVB. It doesn't matter if everyone "knows" the guy is a run out player and no one wants to gamble with him....in tournament pool the guy is NOT as good as SVB and his rating reflects that.

Mike Page, if you're reading this.

Would you consider an experiment whereby you input ONLY the scores of gambling matches for a group of players and then run those against the main body of results from everyone to see what difference if any it makes in the ratings of the players?

I think you could do this with data from the TAR matches and the FightNight matches and similar high profile public money matches. The data should bear out that the rating would be very close for Money Match Only SVB vs. Tournament Only SVB.
 
Sitting at league in a town that doesn't use Fargo Rate for their league. People were discussing people on other teams. They are an A, they have two AA, etc.

I thought to myself these ratings aren't even close to what I would have considered an AA in my other league, town.

Consistency. A 530 being the same everywhere is one reason I love FargoRate


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One stroke-
Everyone who reads AZBilliards knows you don't like Fargo, however please post real facts.

Fargo is used in conjunction with CSI (BCAPL and USAPL). I'm pretty sure the example you are using of a team going to nationals 10 times, is probably an APA situation. In BCAPL, any team or individual can play in the Nationals, you don't have to win a league,regional, or state event.

APA data has never been entered into the FargoRate system. There will be player overlap, because players play in several different leagues.

I think that Fargo will become a standard rating system for players. And the more data causes more accurate tracking. It has been pointed out several times that trying to beat FargoRate is much more difficult (time and money) to manipulate. The reason is obvious: if you go 2 and out, it takes a long time to get sufficient games to have an effect on a rating. On the other hand, if you win an event, you can accumulate 50 games in one tournament.

I wish you would have a more open mind. Maybe the best solution is for you to just not participate?

Respectfully,
Mark Griffin

Excuse me, Mark. There is no rating system that stops (or minimizes) sandbagging. Effectively addressing it is an entirely different subject.
 
What is the difference between effectively addressing, or minimizing? Neither is quantifiable. Both are perceptions.

Therefore, I say it does both


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Excuse me, Mark. There is no rating system that stops (or minimizes) sandbagging. Effectively addressing it is an entirely different subject.
There are many things about the interplay of assessment and reward that, in practice, will lead to more or less sandbagging.

Here are two extremes in this regard:

one extreme

playcubit.com: Don Owen, with his new "cubit billiard club" idea has a design-level overlap between assessment and reward. You basically pay for your rating to go down and get paid for it going up. The idea is to build in no incentive to sandbag.

the other extreme

On the other side is league organizations that separate assessment from reward. you are rewarded for WHETHER you won a game, and you are assessed not only by WHETHER but also by HOW you won the game. Any separation between assessment and reward can be exploited. A second problem here is the assessment is limited to a small number (few hundred per year at most) league games. This means each game you futz around with has a notable impact, and it also means you can tear up the weekly and monthly tournaments with no consequence.

Fargo Ratings are between these two extremes but much closer to the first.

another factor

People don't really sandbag for the money. For most it is a relatively small amount of money for a fair amount of effort. If they put the same level of effort per year into a part-time job flipping burgers, they'd have a thousand-dollar payout every year guaranteed. Instead they do it for a feeling they are successfully gaming the system; they are winning at the game within the game. And, importantly, they are perceived by others to be successful at it.

So what sandbaggers want is this: their friends know they REALLY have a higher gear, and their friends know they are successfully exploiting the system to advantage. Way more than people think, sandbagging is about the perception of others.

Billy beams when he overhears, "Hey, do you believe Billy got into the B Division! He's gonna rob it!" because this implies others think Billy plays higher than B and that Billy successfully--and presumably cleverly--evaded the assessment process.

An amazing transformation happens when people start believing the ratings. Others stop thinking of your rating as some sort of external label placed on you that may or may not agree with their actual assessment of you game. Your rating becomes an integral part of their assessment of your game. And this turns the whole psychology of sandbagging inside out.

How can people sandbag with Fargo Ratings?

You can lose games on purpose. If you are going to try this, you might want to consider losing games that don't cost too much, like perhaps league games and low-entry-fee weekly tournaments. But this is still going to cost you. You will get less league payout and less tournament payout and you will have spent a lot of your time doing it. Then of course you want to come alive for a bigger tournament that is either handicapped or for which you now qualify. And of course you want to avoid bigger tournaments that are not handicapped, because you will blow your wad (bigger tournaments have longer races and in the later stages have strong opponents). Good luck with this.

In our area we have been doing this for six years, and these conversations we are having now all happened back then. And we had a handful of people who always used to try to hide in the weeds, who always used to play only when they had the nuts, who are exactly the people who you would worry about trying to game the system. And here is the deal: we now have six years of data ON THESE PLAYERS, six years of league, of weekly tournaments, and of bigger tournaments. And we also see what happens when they match up privately. We can look at whether they magically outperform their rating in the bigger events, at whether they underperform in league, at whether they tend outperform their rating when gambling. I cannot say strongly enough that WE DO NOT FIND THIS. Our tests have been negative.

The one place you have to be careful is when a particular rating is assigned significance, like announcing a big "under 600" tournament. If you do this, then the players rated 599 might avoid playing before judgment day for fear their rating will creep over and the players rated 600 or 602 might dump a few matches to get into the big one. This problem is real and is why we recommend avoiding structures that attach significance to a number. One way is to announce a big under 620 tournament and let in anybody who was under 620 when the tournament was announced. Then the next big one might be under 540, etc. That is these cutoffs are not known in advance.
 
... And here is the deal: we now have six years of data ON THESE PLAYERS, six years of league, of weekly tournaments, and of bigger tournaments. And we also see what happens when they match up privately. We can look at whether they magically outperform their rating in the bigger events, at whether they underperform in league, at whether they tend outperform their rating when gambling. I cannot say strongly enough that WE DO NOT FIND THIS. Our tests have been negative. ...
I have roughly 35 years of experience with Fargo-like rating systems starting with one I set up in 1979 for an in-house league. My experience is that nearly everyone tries to win all their matches.

There was one significant exception that I can recall. The situation was that there were weekly handicapped single-elimination nine ball tournaments with a $10 entry fee and the fees were returned on the same night as prizes except for admin and a donation to the quarterly big regional tournament. One player figured out the sandbagging strategy. He came to each weekly tournament and managed to lose his first match. His rating fell nicely for an investment of about $100.

He showed up at the quarterly with his 500 (equivalent) rating. The TD who was also the system-wide LO knew what was going on and said, "Sorry, you're a 600 and always have been. If you want to enter, it will be as a 600." He didn't come back. He lost his investment.
 
Banks have complex systems to record and track every penny. They have completely seperate systems in place to keep people from robbing and steeling. Don't underestimate the thief. The thief will find weakness that no-one has thought of, exploit it, and spread it.

Bob's example of a solution has been the time honored practice in our sport to date. The APA has their floor-walkers and spotters.
 
Well, The Billiard Club in Mountain Home, Arkansas just became (I believe) the 1st location in the state to turn in match results to FargoRate.

CSI had player profiles and stats up on the same day. Just in the matter of a few hours.

Impressive. Thank you for taking the plunge, Bob Nunley and crew.
 
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