Fatboy's Bushkas

[dave sutton]

i dont doubt he chose the best shafts but thats not the point i was making.

as far as construction goes there are 2 basic kinds full and short splice. full splice cues do feel a little different but i can screw my predator on my 100$ break cue and mt friends 10,000$ szamboti and there isnt much difference in my play. i have changed my cues like i change my cloths over the years but as long as i keep my shaft i play the same.

the shaft tip and ferrule is the most important thing to a cues playability.

 

[cuenut]

It has become increasingly harder to find really mature wood than in years past. Look at the availability at a furniture store for truly solid wood tables and chairs. Most is pressed with laminate, etc. I am not talking in generalities, but there are many cuemakers out there who go more for volume that true quality and playability. You can't find 200 year old maple trees that grew in the wild on their own anymore. Most quality hardwoods come from countries where clear cutting is still allowed. Maple, for the most part a product of N. America, is now hard to find with tight growth rings because much of it has grown on tree farms and harvested relatively young in its life (in tree years, anyway). I think the tightness of the wood grain plays a major part. One thing working against many older cues, in my opinion, is not so much structuraly integrity and tolerance, rather the adhesives used in their construction combined with care in ownership. As can be seen in MANY old Titlist cues, the common players often have delaminating veneers. I don't think this was a Brunswick problem, rather the conditions of care in ownership. I would think that most out there would agree that people who pay for a high end cue will take better care than those who buy a Cuetec or Dufferin cue simply because they have more invested into it. Likewise in older cues. People who bought Paradise cues, Bushkas, Szamboti's, normally wouldn't leave them in hot steamy cars, and they endured the test of time better than others. I think they didn't suffer the consequences of poor handling. Just my 2 cents.

 

[pooltableproCP]

Hey Fatboy - So that's the infamous "worn finish" cue you were telling me about! That thing is awesome, if I can ever get to Vegas, you will have to show me it's magic!

Chris

 

[dave sutton]

It has become increasingly harder to find really mature wood than in years past. Look at the availability at a furniture store for truly solid wood tables and chairs. Most is pressed with laminate, etc. I am not talking in generalities, but there are many cuemakers out there who go more for volume that true quality and playability. You can't find 200 year old maple trees that grew in the wild on their own anymore. Most quality hardwoods come from countries where clear cutting is still allowed. Maple, for the most part a product of N. America, is now hard to find with tight growth rings because much of it has grown on tree farms and harvested relatively young in its life (in tree years, anyway). I think the tightness of the wood grain plays a major part. One thing working against many older cues, in my opinion, is not so much structuraly integrity and tolerance, rather the adhesives used in their construction combined with care in ownership. As can be seen in MANY old Titlist cues, the common players often have delaminating veneers. I don't think this was a Brunswick problem, rather the conditions of care in ownership. I would think that most out there would agree that people who pay for a high end cue will take better care than those who buy a Cuetec or Dufferin cue simply because they have more invested into it. Likewise in older cues. People who bought Paradise cues, Bushkas, Szamboti's, normally wouldn't leave them in hot steamy cars, and they endured the test of time better than others. I think they didn't suffer the consequences of poor handling. Just my 2 cents.

i agree. old growth goes for a premuim. we have deff made advances in constructon. i juts sold a perfect titlist finish and all 1 pc. i had 4 of them that were put away 40 yrs ago.

botis and bushkas were only a few hundred 25-30 yrs ago. but look who biult them gus barry burt and davis. who knew what they fetch today... how many ppl leave their $600+ meucci's in the car. i dont think everyone knew about hot cars and warpage back in the day. i bet alot of them were left in the car

 

[Cuaba]

Exactly.

the shaft tip and ferrule is the most important thing to a cues playability.

George would go through shaft blanks and tap them to hear how they would resonate (other cuemakers have done this as well, Fatboy ask Laurie about Jerry.)

Shaft blanks are cut to proper dimensions and graded in terms of wood quality & density, etc. But George wanted a certain hit that few shafts could provide. As a musician, he could here the natural tones in the wood blanks that would result in the best hit. He would reject the rest without making any cuts on them. Between knowing how to select the blanks, and knowing how to turn & construct them into finished shafts, he made shafts that play like musical instruments.

As far as making butt blanks, when George started making cues, custom cuemaking was much simpler than it is today. Making full spliced blanks was very difficult given the equipment at the time. Brunswick sold blanks, and thats what Rambow, Martin, Paradise and most everybody else was using at the time.

When Spain came out with something better, George used that. Same with Gus's blanks. Although George probably never made his own blanks, he did use the best that were available at the time.

 

[dave sutton]

did anyone notice the middle cue had ebony points and a rosewood buttsleeve. ive only ever seen 1 other like this

 

[cornerstone]

i dont doubt he chose the best shafts but thats not the point i was making.

as far as construction goes there are 2 basic kinds full and short splice. full splice cues do feel a little different but i can screw my predator on my 100$ break cue and mt friends 10,000$ szamboti and there isnt much difference in my play. i have changed my cues like i change my cloths over the years but as long as i keep my shaft i play the same.

the shaft tip and ferrule is the most important thing to a cues playability.

Dave with all due respect,I have over $1,000,000.00 in cues if you are comparing a predator with a break butt.with cuemakers like szamboti who hand pick shaft wood 10 to 1 aginst a production shaft. you dont have the finesse or the feel to pick up the subtle beauty of a custom cuemakers sound(resonation)/taper/balance point/shape of tip/ tennon on the ferell. I can blind folded tell you if you are handing me a barry/richard black/bob manzino/ Rc3/mcworter ect. I know for a fact that 3 of the most desireable cuemakers on the planet will not even turn a predator because of inconsistancys. Bob Manzino sent back 7 befor finding 2 that would meet his standards! Custom cue makers are like fine instrument makers and have a playibility that they are looking for. most people that play predators say ( they take a little getting used to) my point is why have to change your playibility to make a shat work! when the old one workd fine! Please dont compare production to custom like that it is totally not true. with all due respect! Bill

 

[Hit Man]

So true

With ALL due respect: Tap!Tap!Tap! for Mr. William Grassley

 

[dave sutton]

Dave with all due respect,I have over $1,000,000.00 in cues if you are comparing a predator with a break butt.with cuemakers like szamboti who hand pick shaft wood 10 to 1 aginst a production shaft. you dont have the finesse or the feel to pick up the subtle beauty of a custom cuemakers sound(resonation)/taper/balance point/shape of tip/ tennon on the ferell. I can blind folded tell you if you are handing me a barry/richard black/bob manzino/ Rc3/mcworter ect. I know for a fact that 3 of the most desireable cuemakers on the planet will not even turn a predator because of inconsistancys. Bob Manzino sent back 7 befor finding 2 that would meet his standards! Custom cue makers are like fine instrument makers and have a playibility that they are looking for. most people that play predators say ( they take a little getting used to) my point is why have to change your playibility to make a shat work! when the old one workd fine! Please dont compare production to custom like that it is totally not true. with all due respect! Bill

im not meaning disrespect anyone. however there is a reason 3 out of 4 or 5 pro players use predator shafts. inconsistantcy is not it. i have played with the same shaft for many many years and no matter what butt i have as long as it is 5x16-14 i will have little if any change in my play. that is the very definition of consistancy

 

[dave sutton]

I can blind folded tell you if you are handing me a barry/richard black/bob manzino/ Rc3/mcworter ect. I know for a fact that 3 of the most desireable cuemakers on the planet will not even turn a predator because of inconsistancys.

maybe this year at valley forge we can try it 100$ a pop anyone want in...jk pal i understand your position

ps i am not just talking about any 314. i have special pick of mine. i weighted 20 shafts and picked the best one. came out amlost 4 oz at 12.75

 

[classiccues]

maybe this year at valley forge we can try it 100$ a pop anyone want in...jk pal i understand your position

ps i am not just talking about any 314. i have special pick of mine. i weighted 20 shafts and picked the best one. came out amlost 4 oz at 12.75

Actually I had a different bet in mind, but decided against posting it here...

JV

 

[dave sutton]

Actually I had a different bet in mind, but decided against posting it here...

JV

pm me id love to hear it...lol

ps i think bill misunderstood my post. i was simply stating i feel the shaft tip and ferrule are more important than the butt as far as playability.

 

[merylane]

i dont know that i agree with this post. i dont wana hijack this and turn it into a debate but i know for a fact that G.B. bought all of his shafts precut without rings guts and ferrules by the crateful from a compant in NY . someone i know has alot of original balabuska parts including crates of shafts.

i agree G.B. was one of the most improtant men in cue making history but i always wonder why he couldnt make his own forearms cut in points or make his own shafts

i also think the browner wood is nice but for some reason some ppl like "clean" shafts where u dont see that brown.

why on earth do you think he coulndnt make his own blanks ?

 

[firemankc]

Dave with all due respect,I have over $1,000,000.00 in cues if you are comparing a predator with a break butt.with cuemakers like szamboti who hand pick shaft wood 10 to 1 aginst a production shaft. you dont have the finesse or the feel to pick up the subtle beauty of a custom cuemakers sound(resonation)/taper/balance point/shape of tip/ tennon on the ferell. I can blind folded tell you if you are handing me a barry/richard black/bob manzino/ Rc3/mcworter ect. I know for a fact that 3 of the most desireable cuemakers on the planet will not even turn a predator because of inconsistancys. Bob Manzino sent back 7 befor finding 2 that would meet his standards! Custom cue makers are like fine instrument makers and have a playibility that they are looking for. most people that play predators say ( they take a little getting used to) my point is why have to change your playibility to make a shat work! when the old one workd fine! Please dont compare production to custom like that it is totally not true. with all due respect! Bill

Bill, I will bring the blindfold and the shafts. Casey

 

[Fatboy]

Awesome collection, I especially like the second from the left, Classic Balabuska.

Thanks for sharing, nice to see the cues together and in the states. How would you rate their hit compared to your Szamboti?

I like the hit Szams better over all, the exception is the cue on the far left that cue hits as good as any cue I have ever played with perhaps the best hit ever, I have a couple Szam's that I like the hit as much, but not more. That cue on the left is amazing, everyone who I let hit balls with it says the same thing, I usually dont tell them its a Bushka until they are done with it, so they dont have any preconceived notions or expectations about the cue, this way they tell me about the hit before the know its a Bushka.

One of the Bushkas I havent played with yet, one other one the shaft is 12.6mm whitch is a bit thin for me but it stil plays good.

At the end of the day its all subjective, and over the years my taste in how cues hit has changed, as my preferance of shaft diameter, for the past 10 years or so I have liked full 13mm and 20-20.5oz cues.

Cues in this level are all a dream come true and are amazing. I dont have a favorite, its like a Ferrari or a Lamborghini they are both great if you like that type of car, so if you like cues Szams or Bushkas both have their great points, i cant pick a favorite, there are more Szams around and lots more design work in them and varity.

 

[Fatboy]

Fatboy,
The available wood was better then, and cuemakers like Gus & George were more particular about the wood they used. They would tap & listen to shaft blanks to find the best ones. And I agree that the wood gets better with time, just like a violin. Back then the hit was all about sound & feel, now its about deflection.

George was a musician who also made instruments. A cue is a percussion instrument that hits a ball & makes a sound & has a feel. George totally understood that concept. Thats why his cues play the way they do.

Now they use robots & mechanical devices to hit balls & measure deflection. The cues hit straight, but musically they are dead.

they are dead these days, there is no feed back when you hit the CB with new cues compaired to a Szam. I cant stand a cue I cant feel,

I knew Jerry Franklin very good, I knew him for about 12 years when he passed away, we spent alot of time together reading this book he had on woods and discussed at length our opinions of the harmonics of different woods, tapers, tips, joint types, tips. We agreed on some things others we disagreed on, I learned a alot about wood from Jerry, I went to his shop every few months, atthe time i lived 2 miles from it.

I also have some Gus Szams verifyed by Barry that dont have straight grain shafts that play great. One in particular it has the worst looking shaft I ever saw on a Gus, Barry said it was 100% his dads work, he continued to explain to me that his dad didnt just use the straight grain theory for all his shafts, and the shaft I have looks terrible but plays great, How Gus figured that out when he was cutting down that shaft i'll never know what he was looking for. He wasnt lazy, he picked out the best wood for his shafts but by the looks of this shaft he had to know something I dont know it looks horrible but plays great-how he knows that is the "secret sauce " recipie. So so much for the straight grain theory,

Sure the cuemakers of today build beatiful cues but they just dont play like the old stuff across the board for the most part. I love the work of the new cue makers and I have some of their cues, at all price ranges but to me they dont hit like any of the old cues, sure there are exceptions I have a Gus that hits them just ok and I have a SW and a Sugartree that are great hitting cues.

 

[Cuaba]

Percussion Instruments

You mentioned cues , as percussion instruments...
would you share more on this subject, as I believe some of the very best hitting cues I have had , have always had a kind of a ring"to them, or a nice ping" sound"
thanks for your posts,
Duane

Duane,
I was offerred a scholarship as a percussionist to an Ivy League College. I played drums in a 21 piece college big band as a result. In the end, I was ACUI champion at a State University (with Donovan, by the way.)

Cues fascinated me because as a pool player I saw them as a precision tool, and as a percussionist I realized that the "hit" People talked about was a musical quality. I have developed my own theories about why certain cues hit great.

I don't think it was an accident that Balabushka was a musician that made musical instruments. I believe that many of his techniques derived from instrument making. Most people that talk about the "hit" of his cues have never made this connection.

I assume that Gus had a high musical aptitude, has his cues have the same kind of musical sound & sensation when you hit a ball. I have researched many of my cues with Barry, but I have never asked that question.

In any case, the musical qualities that cues by by Gus & George had seem to have been lost with cues of the present.

 

[Cuaba]

Form Follows Function

I also have some Gus Szams verifyed by Barry that dont have straight grain shafts that play great. One in particular it has the worst looking shaft I ever saw on a Gus, Barry said it was 100% his dads work, he continued to explain to me that his dad didnt just use the straight grain theory for all his shafts, and the shaft I have looks terrible but plays great, How Gus figured that out when he was cutting down that shaft i'll never know what he was looking for. He wasnt lazy, he picked out the best wood for his shafts but by the looks of this shaft he had to know something I dont know it looks horrible but plays great-how he knows that is the "secret sauce " recipie. So so much for the straight grain theory,

I really don't think Gus picked his shaft wood by looking at it. I think he picked it by listening to it. Same as George.

The fact that the shaft you mentioned looks terrible but plays great is no accident.

 

[sixpack]

It has become increasingly harder to find really mature wood than in years past. Look at the availability at a furniture store for truly solid wood tables and chairs. Most is pressed with laminate, etc. I am not talking in generalities, but there are many cuemakers out there who go more for volume that true quality and playability. You can't find 200 year old maple trees that grew in the wild on their own anymore. Most quality hardwoods come from countries where clear cutting is still allowed. Maple, for the most part a product of N. America, is now hard to find with tight growth rings because much of it has grown on tree farms and harvested relatively young in its life (in tree years, anyway). I think the tightness of the wood grain plays a major part. One thing working against many older cues, in my opinion, is not so much structuraly integrity and tolerance, rather the adhesives used in their construction combined with care in ownership. As can be seen in MANY old Titlist cues, the common players often have delaminating veneers. I don't think this was a Brunswick problem, rather the conditions of care in ownership. I would think that most out there would agree that people who pay for a high end cue will take better care than those who buy a Cuetec or Dufferin cue simply because they have more invested into it. Likewise in older cues. People who bought Paradise cues, Bushkas, Szamboti's, normally wouldn't leave them in hot steamy cars, and they endured the test of time better than others. I think they didn't suffer the consequences of poor handling. Just my 2 cents.

I think you're right about the 'tightness' of the grain. I was watching a show about the last mini ice age (ended in the 1600s) and they said that the years preceeding when Strativarius made his best violins, there was a very cold spell lasting 30 or 40 years during which the trees in the Black Forest (where he got his wood) grew very slowly. They theorized that the density of the wood was a key component to the sound quality.

I suspect there is a similar relationship to cues. Does anybody know where he got his wood? It would be interesting to look at weather records for that area and see. It looks like there were some cold spells in the NE in the 1940s and prior to 1920. Perhaps the old growth wood he used grew then.

Cheers
RC

 

[manwon]

I have a question, this is is as serious as any question I have ever asked here on AZ.

My friend phrased it right the other night, he is a good A player who used a Szam for 16 years everyday, His Szam is now my LA playing cue, the Barry lives in Vegas(I live in both citys). To my point, He said "How do the cue makers today account for not making cues that feel/play like this cue?"-refering tho the worn looking Bushka on the left of the pic. This isnt a knock of todays current established cue makers or the up and commers, they are close no doubt about it but not quite there, the points in the cue were discussing arnt even but it does roll dead straight. My answere is the old seasoned wood is the reason, Id bet that 28 years ago that cue didnt play like it does today, I kiln can reduce the water content of the wood but there is more to it than that the pitch etc in the wood needs to crystalize, stableize and its the "Old wood" that makes a difference not the age of the tree but when it was cut down,

What else can it be, it isnt the tollerences, todays cue makers are making the best ever but they just dont have that feel. I keep reading about deflection etc and to me its is a marketing tool for businessmen, i might be wrong, but the shaft in this cue feels different too, its not stiffer but more solid, its difficult to describe, many of the old Gus cues have the same feel as do real old Tads and Ginacues.


My theory is old wood in old cues is what makes them feel different, like red wine it takes time for it to come right and peak, when wood gets too old and brittle there might be problems, were living in a cool time, because there are plenty of 10,20,30,40, year old cues out there to play with and discover if my theory about old wood has any merit, no cue is going to make anyone a champion, but I enjoy the feel of a good cue that taks back to me and I can move the rock around more precisely and reliably and I seem to do that with older cues as a rule, so thats my theory.

My theory is old wood in old cues is what makes them feel different, like red wine it takes time for it to come right and peak, when wood gets too old and brittle there might be problems, were living in a cool time, because there are plenty of 10,20,30,40, year old cues out there to play with and discover if my theory about old wood has any merit, no cue is going to make anyone a champion, but I enjoy the feel of a good cue that taks back to me and I can move the rock around more precisely and reliably and I seem to do that with older cues as a rule, so thats my theory

I also think it makes a difference, but there also has to something to it beyond old wood. I think that sometimes the person who made a perticular cue can not even explain what the difference is. But, perfection is a quality that can only be achieved through skill. George definately was a skilled cue maker, and through all his experience with wood working I am glad that it was a cue that sumes up his perfection, and his wonderful abilities.