Fear of Feel

A sincere reply amended to the following sincere reply.

I think you know the question at hand. We've been down this road before.

You've instilled no confidence in me that you are capable of answering the question regarding the nature of your CTE.

You believe it to be something other than what others have concluded it to be.

I see nothing in the near future that is going to change that.

Your perception of your CTE is not the perception some others have of it.

The objective truth as to it's nature may be proven at some point in the future. Until then there will be disagreement as to it's nature.

You may not like that, but that is the objective truth of the matter.

Best 2 You & All,
Rick

It is obvious that you do not understand CTE and certainly can not execute with it....so how does that qualify you to even discuss the perceptions....your attempt at duplicating Stevie's shots was a joke.....really, nothing but a joke. And you have the nerve to discuss CTE as if you know something about it....

Stan Shuffett
 
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It is obvious that you do not understand CTE and certainly can not execute with it....so how does that qualify you to even discuss the perceptions....your attempt at duplicating Stevie's shots was a joke.....really, nothing but a joke. And you have the nerve to discuss CTE as if you know something about it....

Stan Shuffett

How is it that the system only seems to "work" for people that can already shoot well? Not sure there's even been a case on here with an apa player moving up a ranking. I'd think that if it's a "center pocket system that's geometrically correct", then even a small amount of variance would still result in a pocketed ball. Maybe that's not the case, eh?
 
How is it that the system only seems to "work" for people that can already shoot well? Not sure there's even been a case on here with an apa player moving up a ranking. I'd think that if it's a "center pocket system that's geometrically correct", then even a small amount of variance would still result in a pocketed ball. Maybe that's not the case, eh?

The system works well for a lot people across all levels.

What's not the case?

Stan Shuffett
 
It is obvious that you do not understand CTE and certainly can not execute with it....so how does that qualify you to even discuss the perceptions....your attempt at duplicating Stevie's shots was a joke.....really, nothing but a joke. And you have the nerve to discuss CTE as if you know something about it....

Stan Shuffett

This shows that I was correct to not again go down that road with you.

It seems that perhaps you actually may not know or understand what the actual concerns are.

Perception does not a '100% totally objective system' make.

Not that it matters in terms of logical or rational discussion but I can certainly execute the totally objective shots of your CTE just fine. It's the shot angles in between that don't go when executed purely objectively without the influence of any subjective input of the nature that most call 'feel'.

If one aligns to one of the objective visual alignments & then moves off of that alignment one has just left the realm of objective & entered into the realm of subjective 'feel' as to how far to move off for any given shot.

To call those subjective perceptions objective seems to be playing fast & loose with words. Yet you have called me 'wordman' & worse several times.

I can do as stated above, as can so many actually do, but then one does not need your CTE to start from as a base as there are many other methods that also require an amount of feel for the in between shots.

Would it be a good thing to have a totally objective aiming method? I'd say yes, as then one could devote more effort in other areas regarding the cue ball.

That is why I was naively intrigued when I first heard of a potentially totally objective method of aiming.

Until & if one does come along, one will simply have to rely on a certain amount of feel even if they do not realise that they are doing so.

If anyone chooses to utilize your CTE as the base from which to start, that is certainly fine & certainly is their choice & there is certainly nothing wrong with that. CTE may actually be the best choose for them.

But... they should know what they are choosing...

Or...perhaps for some... perhaps many... it may actually be better that they do not know what they are really choosing.

Until there is some revelation on one side or the other, there will be disagreement as to your affirmation regarding the nature of your CTE in pool rooms around the world. I think that is rather obvious.

Some agree with you & some don't.

Some paraplegics may agree with you & some paraplegics may disagree with you.

Best 2 You & All,
Rick

PS Objective means can usually be very easily explained as you do on how to obtain your CTE & Edge to A, B, & C simultaneous visuals. Conveying one's subjective perception is almost always extremely difficult if not impossible to truly convey to another individual.
 
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This shows that I was correct to not again go down that road with you.

It seems that perhaps you actually may not know or understand what the concerns are.

Perception does not a '100% totally objective system' make.

Not that it matters in terms of logical or rational discussion but I can certainly execute the totally objective shots of your CTE just fine. It's the one's in between that don't go when executed purely objectively without the influence of any subjective input of the nature that most call 'feel'.

If one aligns to one of the objective visual alignments & then moves off of that alignment one has just left the realm of objective & entered into the realm of subjective 'feel' as to how far to move off for any given shot.

To call those subjective perceptions objective seems be playing fast & loose with words. Yet you have called me 'wordman' & worse several times.

I can do as stated above, as do so many, but then one does not need your CTE to start from as a base as there are many other methods that also require an amount of feel for the in between shots.

Would it be a good thing to have a totally objective aiming method? I'd say yes, as then one could devote more effort in other areas regarding the cue ball.

That is why I was naively intrigued when I first heard of a potentially totally objective method of aiming.

Until & if one does come along, one will simply have to rely on a certain amount of feel even if they do not realise that they are doing so.

If anyone chooses to utilize your CTE as the base from which to start, that is fine & certainly is their choice & there is nothing wrong with that. CTE may be the best choose for them.

But they should know what they are choosing...

Or...perhaps for some... perhaps many... it may actually be better that they do not know what they are really choosing.

Until there is some revelation on one side or the other there will be disagreement as to your affirmation regarding the nature of your CTE in pool rooms around the world. I think that is rather obvious.

Some agree with you & some don't.

Some paraplegics may agree with you & some paraplegics may disagree with you.

Best 2 You & All,
Rick

PS Objective means can usually be very easily explained as you do on how to obtain your CTE & E to A, B, & C simultaneous visuals. Conveying one's subjective perception is almost always extremely difficult if not impossible to truly convey to another individual.

Good talk.

Stan Shuffett
 
CTE perception part 2 video.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-1Psy5hOJT0

time stamp 3:00 to 7:00. 5 different cuts into the same pocket

Dictionary.reference.com

perception
[per-sep-shuh n]

noun
1.
the act or faculty of perceiving, or apprehending by means of the senses or of the mind; cognition; understanding.
2.
immediate or intuitive recognition

Public Service Announcement: Transcript to go with the video. Talk amongst yourselves... (actually, I'm hoping that having his transcript available, might make some of these questions/answers easier to approach... having an example in front of us...)

[For reference later, the balls, left to right as we see them, are 11, 14, 13, 9, 12 - edit: I'll edit in some timestamps later...]

Perception Lesson #2
00:10
I want to follow up the first lesson with some actual cue ball and object balls that are set up as a left cut to the bottom corner.

As I mentioned yesterday, this shot represents Edge to A, Center to Edge, inside pivot to that corner pocket.
00:37
All of the shots in this line can be made with the same visuals and the same pivot, but what happens is that when you pick up the visuals, the way the balls are presented on the table, the orientation of the cue ball to the object ball actually fixes two different edges on the cue ball.
01:01
But, you're working with objective visuals, a consistent pivot, that connects with pockets on a regulation table.

I think one of the first really big lessons that I understood in CTE aiming that made a really big difference to me is the fact that I learned that you do not look at the CTE line from this perspective [holds CB next to face], in other words, do not get directly behind the CTE line.
01:34
Just, once again [stick in hand], if I line up on this first shot and I line up from the perspective of being directly on the CTE line, I have no Edge-to-A. If I line up directly Edge-to-A, I have no CTE perspective, so...

We're working with two lines of aim, and you're not directly behind either one.
02:03
So, I want to take you a step further in the proper approach to arriving at the [the? garbled] visuals. My strongest visual alignment for a straight-in shot is just slightly to the right of my nose, and to the inside of my right eye. So, I'm gonna line up on this first line of balls, that's a cut to the bottom left corner, I'm gonna line up Center-to-Center, with my strongest visual alignment. I'm gonna start rotating to the left, slightly, until the left edge of the CB, the innermost left edge of the CB is at A, and then I have CTE. So, there we are.
02:55
So, it's from that point that I can make that ball in that corner pocket.

Now, my movement, my rotation, to pick up that innermost edge, was pretty insignificant.

Now, as I move over to this next line, I have a Center-to-Center alignment here... Now, this is not the way I do it in a game, this is just a method for you to fall correctly into your visuals. So, I'm gonna start rotating, from this Center-to-Center perspective, so I'm gonna rotate... there we go. I'm sorta going around the circle of the CB, you might say, picking up the innermost edge... there it is. So, now, I , this CB is oriented in such a way, that when I do my Pro-1 Left Sweep, I'm in the proper position to make that ball.
04:00
If we move over to the next one, I have... there's my Center-to-Center, from this perspective, as I begin my rotation... there we go... there we go... still not there... still not there... now, there we are, so I'm slightly oriented on this ball differently from the first two, but my objectives are visual. So, it's from here that I just do my normal left sweep, right into the spot to cut that ball in.
04:37
Now, obviously as we're moving over here, the cuts are going to be much thinner. As I set up for this one, Center-to-Center, and I start my movement, one thing I notice is that I have to rotate more, to bring the two lines into proper perspective. So, here's my rotation... continuing to go... continuing... almost there... there we are. There's Edge-to-A, CTE. I'm in the perfect visual alignment to make this ball into that corner pocket with the same visual sweep, that I used for the previous three.
05:24
Now, this next shot, I think I made a comparison yesterday with the oversized balls... when I, when I drop in on this perspective here [back to the first shot (11)] Edge-to-A, CTE, I'm really pretty thick to this ball, and I can easily see CTE and Edge-to-A here.
05:48
[Back to the last shot (12)] When I try to assume the same perspective over here, it's... it's very difficult even to... to begin to resemble that. It's... I just don't have a CTE, the left edge of the CB, I can make a case for that being on A, but I have not CTE. So, I have to keep rotating... so, center... center-to-center... there's my rotation... still don't have it... there's my rotation... still don't have it... See I'm having to move more on this one to acquire the proper visuals.
06:30
So, I'm gonna start again on this one. The center-to-center... there's my rotation... there we go... there we go... so, there it is: Right there. I'm at the limit, really, of what I could do to cut that ball to the left corner. But, from here... from here, it's the same left sweep that I use for the other four shots.
06:54
It's like I said yesterday, it wouldn't matter if I had a curtain here, because I'm gonna pick up these visuals and shoot them all. It doesn't matter whether a curtain's there, it's just... it's a matter of how the balls are on the surface of this regulation table.
07:11
Now, my strongest visual alignment is [putting hand to face, just right of nose] here. Let's say your strongest visual alignment is slightly to your left eye [hand on the other side of nose], in between your nose and your left eye, so, then you're going to start your center-to-center from this perspective. And then you're going to start rotating until you pick that up... there it is. Now, during the turn, you're gonna stop here, rather than here.
07:44
So, you take your strongest center-to-center alignment, and that's where you begin, and then when you're in full-stance, that... that visual alignment that you used for ball address should match how the cue intersects your... uh.. uh.. face during.. during full stance.
08:03
So, umm... if I were strongly left-eye dominant, I would have to... I mean really strongly left-eye, I might start right here, and then I just rotate... there it is, right there. So, then I would just drop down, and my left eye is really gonna be prominently over the cue at.. that point.
08:27
Now, why.. why do we have Edge-to-A? Or, Edge-to-B? As left... as CTE visuals, for left cuts? Well, there's two CTE visuals that make all shots on the table. For left cuts it would be A, and then it would be... then it would be B.
08:47
So, if... if... if we just revisit this concept again, right here, if I put this CB up to my nose like this, and pick my CTE visuals out, that's.. that.. that's.. that's wrong. I don't want to get a CTE visual from that perspective.
09:07
But, the big lesson in that is.. is that.. if you're not behind the CB with your strongest visual alignment, to pick up CTE, then that means you have to be at an offset. So, where is that offset?
09:27
Once upon a time, I worked with.. you know.. uhh.. CTE aiming from basically one visual line, and I couldn't describe where the offset was. So, I knew that this [back on the 11] was the offset that would make that ball in the corner, but I had no way to describe it.
09:51
If I wanted to cut this 14 ball into the corner, I knew that this was the offset that made the ball, but how could I distinguish between this particular CTE offset perception, ... it.. it's a CTE offset. You only have a perception of CTE. So, my perception for this first shot, as a cut to the corner, is a.. is a thick perception. My perception for this 14 ball [from the first CB] over to the corner, is a thinner perception, but yet I have a perception of CTE.
10:41
I can remember in my earlier days of teaching CTE, and it's even in some of my earlier manuals, well, you.. you line up thicker to the shot. Or, you line up thinner to this shot. Well, that wasn't good enough, and that's one reason I kept at it.. because I knew that there had to be something more, or, at least, I hoped there would be something more. So, I.. you know.. I.. I continued to work with what.. with the material that I had, and the.. uhh.. the whole idea of CTE aiming, so...
11:20
When I look at this thicker shot, what gives me the correct CTE offset, is the fact that I have the left edge perceived to the left quarter of the object ball, which.. which is A. So, that give me the correct offset. If I want to cut this [14, from first CB] ball into that corner over there, then ... [adjusts 14] ..
11:48
I'm just going to face these aim points directly to the CB.. so if I were to .. if I were to line up on this shot [14 ball from first CB], uhh... There's my strongest visual alignment, and I start rotating, well... that.. that's it. So, once.. that.. that's as far as I can go, Edge-to-A, CTE. So, when I turn on this ball, I don't have the cut down there in that bottom corner... but, you know what? I'm on the proper angle to bank the ball back up into this corner.
12:30
The system takes you to pockets. I'll go through the details of this .. in my second DVD. So, what if I wanted to cut that ball into that actual corner? Well, if I start at center, and keep rotating, there's... there's the proper perception to cut this ball in the corner, Center-to-Edge... that's the proper perception.
12:57
How can I repeat that? Well, the left edge of the CB is aimed at B, perceived at B.
13:06
So, you have two CTE visuals, primarily in the support videos I.. I've worked with.. I've worked with A, and.. uhh.. to support those people out there that.. that I have worked with, the people that have.. you know, bought my videos, and then these support videos can also allow you, as.. as a new and interested person in CTE, make a decision if this is something that you would like to pursue.
13:39
When I first started teaching CTE aiming, the people that I saw, primarily, were people that, uh, they knew all about CTE, as far as.. they wanted it. They had some ideas about it, and they were very interested in it. But, these days, it's.. it's not so. They say, well, this guy's got an aiming system, and I wanna learn it, but they really don't have any of the.. you know, any concept about what they're getting in to.
14:06
Well, it's a very powerful, visual-physical system, but these support videos can give you an idea, this is something that you would like, to pursue. I highly recommend it, because, it's the only objective system that I'm aware of that connects with the geometry of a regulation table.
14:28
You know, pool is a visual-physical game, and this system will line you up correctly, physically move you into center ball, and then from there, of course, you have to do the shooting. This system won't make the ball for you.
 
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This shows that I was correct to not again go down that road with you.

It seems that perhaps you actually may not know or understand what the actual concerns are.

Perception does not a '100% totally objective system' make.

Not that it matters in terms of logical or rational discussion but I can certainly execute the totally objective shots of your CTE just fine. It's the one's in between that don't go when executed purely objectively without the influence of any subjective input of the nature that most call 'feel'.

If one aligns to one of the objective visual alignments & then moves off of that alignment one has just left the realm of objective & entered into the realm of subjective 'feel' as to how far to move off for any given shot.

To call those subjective perceptions objective seems to be playing fast & loose with words. Yet you have called me 'wordman' & worse several times.

I can do as stated above, as can so many actually do, but then one does not need your CTE to start from as a base as there are many other methods that also require an amount of feel for the in between shots.

Would it be a good thing to have a totally objective aiming method? I'd say yes, as then one could devote more effort in other areas regarding the cue ball.

That is why I was naively intrigued when I first heard of a potentially totally objective method of aiming.

Until & if one does come along, one will simply have to rely on a certain amount of feel even if they do not realise that they are doing so.

If anyone chooses to utilize your CTE as the base from which to start, that is certainly fine & certainly is their choice & there is certainly nothing wrong with that. CTE may actually be the best choose for them.

But... they should know what they are choosing...

Or...perhaps for some... perhaps many... it may actually be better that they do not know what they are really choosing.

Until there is some revelation on one side or the other, there will be disagreement as to your affirmation regarding the nature of your CTE in pool rooms around the world. I think that is rather obvious.

Some agree with you & some don't.

Some paraplegics may agree with you & some paraplegics may disagree with you.

Best 2 You & All,
Rick

PS Objective means can usually be very easily explained as you do on how to obtain your CTE & Edge to A, B, & C simultaneous visuals. Conveying one's subjective perception is almost always extremely difficult if not impossible to truly convey to another individual.

Rick, reading what you just wrote, I can't help but ask if you have any idea of how to use CTE? I say that, because what you just wrote, sure isn't CTE. What you wrote about sounds like fraction aiming.

edit- Also, the subjective part of it has been explained quite a few times on here by myself and others. That you still don't know what it is, only shows that you do not want to know. It's the last bastion you have to fall back on, because you just admitted that the rest of it is objective. So, in reality, you have nothing left to fall back on now.
 
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Lie? Maybe Howerton has a backup of that thread? You're just praying people forgot about your barrel...many have not. Care to bet another $3k on whether that really happened? Might as well bet, you never pay anyways.

OK, for anyone who wants to read some more absolute ridiculousness (along with some good information here and there), here is the infamous pj-Spidey "bet" thread from 6½ years ago -- http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=113341. It related to a dispute about the location of pivot points. It went on for nearly 700 posts, which, coincidentally, is just about the current length of this thread.

Enjoy, said the waiter.
 
Just like you can not hit 1/2 a ball.....balls don't have edges, they have a surface that is curved.

A knife as a edge.

Oh yeah....wheres the math behind the 2x1 ratio that keeps being stated?

Funny the math thread went away.
 
A sincere reply amended to the following sincere reply.

I think you know the question at hand. We've been down this road before.

You've instilled no confidence in me that you are capable of answering the question regarding the nature of your CTE.

You believe it to be something other than what others have concluded it to be.

I see nothing in the near future that is going to change that.

Your perception of your CTE is not the perception some others have of it.

The objective truth as to it's nature may be proven at some point in the future. Until then there will be disagreement as to it's nature.

You may not like that, but that is the objective truth of the matter.

Best 2 You & All,
Rick

You really have no expertise on CTE because you have only studied it at the keyboard. All your opinions are based on what you read here. The conclusions you side with were obtained the same way, from behind the keyboard.
 
Just like you can not hit 1/2 a ball.....balls don't have edges, they have a surface that is curved.

A knife as a edge.

Oh yeah....wheres the math behind the 2x1 ratio that keeps being stated?

Funny the math thread went away.

A knife has a rounded edge. Why don't you follow the math thread.
 
Rick, reading what you just wrote, I can't help but ask if you have any idea of how to use CTE? I say that, because what you just wrote, sure isn't CTE. What you wrote about sounds like fraction aiming.

edit- Also, the subjective part of it has been explained quite a few times on here by myself and others. That you still don't know what it is, only shows that you do not want to know. It's the last bastion you have to fall back on, because you just admitted that the rest of it is objective. So, in reality, you have nothing left to fall back on now.

The only part that I have conceded as being reasonably 'objective' for the sake of discussion are the center, edge, A, B, C & 1/8th. sections. I've done so because I think them to be reasonably discernible by any individual with any education regarding fractions, etc.

Yet, if anyone wished to argue that they are not truly objective, they would certainly have a very good argument & I would have to agree with them. Everyone is not equally adept at judging distances & fractional parts of objects.

Yes, even though I was talking about the simultaneous lines of CTE & Edge to x to 'fix' the cue ball it does sound very much like fractional aiming once you leave the 'objective markers'. Doesn't it?

I'm glad you pointed that out.

Best to You Neil & May God Bless You.
 
Just like you can not hit 1/2 a ball.....balls don't have edges, they have a surface that is curved.

A knife as a edge.

Oh yeah....wheres the math behind the 2x1 ratio that keeps being stated?

Funny the math thread went away.

You do realize that you are the only one on here that disagrees with those two statements, don't you?? If you really don't understand the math behind a 2:1 ratio, maybe you should spend a little less time on the table, and a little more time on some bookwork.;)
 
The only part that I have conceded as being reasonably 'objective' for the sake of discussion are the center, edge, A, B, C & 1/8th. sections. I've done so because I think them to be reasonably discernible by any individual with any education regarding fractions, etc.

Yet, if anyone wished to argue that they are not truly objective, they would certainly have a very good argument & I would have to agree with them. Everyone is not equally adept at judging distances & fractional parts of objects.

Yes, even though I was talking about the simultaneous lines of CTE & Edge to x to 'fix' the cue ball it does sound very much like fractional aiming once you leave the 'objective markers'. Doesn't it?

I'm glad you pointed that out.

Best to You Neil & May God Bless You.

Rick, do you even realize that fractional aiming uses one line, as you stated, but CTE uses TWO lines?? Not the same thing, and very different results. The argument you are making is fine for fractional aiming, and no one disagrees with it. But, that is not CTE aiming.
 
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