"Feel" Player trying to understand how to play (long)

N

ndakotan

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I suppose I'm a B player, I can run racks when I'm playing well but I sometimes mess up easy shots/leaves. I play bar box 8 ball in tournaments and leagues. I try not to play "for fun", I always am trying to improve when I'm playing, even if it is just against friends. I practice a lot, and read as much as I can on strokes, shot selection, shotmaking, and position play. I have only been playing serious pool for 4 years. I was a ballbanger for all my life except the last two years, now I am trying to play shape. I wanted to post my current thought process and see if anyone had any insight.

1. I am a creative player (based upon the reaction I get to my shot selection and shotmaking) that is not afraid to "go for it". I have played in several tournaments where I make caroms, billiards, combos, and/or banks that my oponent didn't expect me to make.

2. I am a feel player in more ways than 1. First, in aiming/stroking, I am going off feel and "shot learning". I know this because I don't use any type of system for aiming, and I can subconciously know that I am out of aim and I subconciously try to correct. The best example of this is when I want to make a ball in off another ball that is beside the pocket. I have a very difficult time hitting the carom, the shot usually goes clean, even when I line up for the carom. I think it is very difficult for me to shoot at anything other than a pocket. This is negatively affecting my play to some extent (safeties, moving balls, and cheating the pocket are the big areas).

3. Ever since I started learning to play position, I have found that I tend to get position based on feel also. I don't know how this works, or if it is actually happening, but I tend to get shape on balls I didn't consider getting shape on. If I am shooting the 5, going for shape on the 3, I may get good shape on a tough 6 that is even better. In another example, I once played a shot in a tournament that was my last ball before a tied-up 8 ball that was on the other end of the table. I played postion on my last ball to let me stroke it and go around the table 3 rails and knock into the cluster hoping to get lucky. I ended up hitting the 8 ball cluster off the 2nd rail, hitting it just right for an easy shot on the 8 ball. It is like I was conciously trying for a lucky shape and I got lucky by getting shape another way. I also tend to get "lucky" shape more often then not, especially off breakouts.

4. The quality and quantity of my "lucky" shape shots appears to be directly related to how I am playing. If I am running balls, getting good shape, "feeling" it, I tend to get good shapes on my breakouts and I rarely miss the trouble shapes. On the other hand, when I am out of stroke, hoping for the best, mad because I am not breaking well, I tend to get tied up easier.

5. I feel that in order to get better, I have to understand how I shoot and why I miss shots/shape. I know that I rely heavily on my stroke rythym, if that is off, I might as well go home. I also miss due to a tight grip (I truly believe that a light grip is the key to pool), choking up on the cue, inconsistent foot placement, inconsistent stance, and "jabby" "jerky strokes. When I don't do these things, I play pretty well. Then one day, I can go to the pool hall and something is off. Just today, I realized that my stance/foot placement was causing me to miss shots. I think that when my stance is off, my stroke plane is inconsistent. My brain tries to correct by throwing my elbow out for some reason. I am working on trying to learn quickly when I am doing something that contradicts my good play.

6. I don't have a pre-shot routine, but I am working hard on this. It makes sense to me that I need a "key" to tell my mind and body that I intend to shoot. A routine should do this.

7. I am learning to play shape on intended balls by forcing myself to imagine what I want to happen and not rewarding myself when something else happens, even if it "works".

8. I have a lot of work to do to get the hang of shape off 2 or more rails. I know some of the rail systems, but I tend to not catch on to the sratch lines.

9. I play much better when I am shooting medium-soft and softer shots. When I start shooting hard, I get out of stroke. I need to learn how to shoot hard and then go back to soft right away.

10. When I have to jack up over a ball, I am inconsistent. I can be half-an-inch off on my contact point, other times, I hit the ball right where I intended.

11. I am more likely to miss shape based upon speed than angle. I try to play the angles and enter the position zones the right way, but I can greatly misjudge speed.

12. I think I need a lot of work on putting the tip on the c.b. in the right spot. When I use english or top/bottom, I tend to "over spin" I am not good at "medium" draw, follow, or english. I hit the c.b. where I was pre-stroking for some reason, especially if I am using english.

13. I think that when I do miss, I tend to take a big breath right in the middle of the shot due to uncertainty and "I hope this is right". When I am playing well, my breathing is hidden in my rythym. I do not know how to explain this, nor do I know what to look for to correct this. I just have an intuition that sometimes I miss because stress and anticipation cause me to berathe incorrectly. I do not have any idea what is correct.

Here are my questions for discussion:

a. Can/should "feel" players learn to understand how it works so they can get the feel back if they need to (feel can leave me if I am tired or sick).

b. Any thoughts on someone that seems to always get "lucky" shape?

c. Any thoughts on how to learn to shoot for something other than pockets for safeties.

d. Any thoughts/insights on why people miss?

e. Am I more susceptible to stroke faults than other people? I know several people that have non-textbook styles that seem to do pretty well. Pool and golf can be frustrating because one little problem causes big issues for me, but the guy next to me has terrible form/stroke/swing and does pretty well. Why?

f. Any thoughts on rythym and/or breathing would be appreciated.

g. Can a guy improve to an A if he doesn't worry about all of this?
 
ndakotan said:
I suppose I'm a B player, I can run racks when I'm playing well but I sometimes mess up easy shots/leaves.
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not to nitpick, but that's a 'C' player in most of the country. in areas where folks play on big tables, you'd be lucky to be considered 'D' with this description.

as far as 'lucky shape' goes, your subconscious might be aiding you. more likely, you're noticing the lucky and kinda blocking out the unlucky. memory paints the past in the shade you want.

-s

//opinion.
 
Try taking a couple of lessons from a few different instructors. Maybe a few of them can help you with your fundamentals, help you to find a consistant stroke and maybe even an aiming system. You also might want to try Robert Byrnes, New Standard Book of Pool and Billiards. That will help you a lot:) .

Good luck! :)
 
The best way to learn how to play good pool is to watch good pool. Either find the good players and basically stalk them for months, going to the same tourneys they do, same pool halls, etc.. Or buy Accu-Stats videos. I hear there are a lot of matches free on YouTube now. That is an excellent resource, as long as the content owner is the one publishing them.

I remember when I was where you are at. I used to try to "force" the cue ball to different portions of the table using inside english, extremely soft speed, etc.. Then, I started watching Accu-Stats videos and understanding a lot more about 1, 2, 3 rail paths.

You are looking for how to correct the mistakes you are currently making. Better is to start over from scratch and observe how professionals handle certain elementary shots, positions, and situations. If you don't do this, and instead focus on fundamentals of shotmaking, then you will get very good at pocketing balls. And you will get beat viciously by the better players that know it is more about the mindset of the game, not the laser accuracy.

There are things you absolutely cannot learn on your own, that you can learn in a few minutes by watching a good player execute it while a commentator tells you what the pro is doing. If you're serious about improving, then I suggest you start with finding the matches on YouTube, and watch them till you eyes bleed.

Russ
 
steev said:
not to nitpick, but that's a 'C' player in most of the country. in areas where folks play on big tables, you'd be lucky to be considered 'D' with this description.
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I agree with this...
"B" players IMO already have many if not all of the skills you are asking about... Also "B" players should be dominating local 8 ball leagues... Or at least be ranked as high as you can go...

However I totally understand what you mean by being a "feel" player... There is a huge difference in my game when I am on VS when I am not...
Working with an instructor and watching Top Notch Players are both very good ideas... You should really be studying what the Great players do...

Maybe one of the many great instructors we have on AZ will see this and chime in...

GL

BTW if you can make Caroms with consistancy than shapes should be easy.... they are almost the same thing....
 
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YOU MUST know why every shot reacts the way it does. Lucky happends but I guarentee you that the top player A and beyond knows where the breakout balls are ending up. There is no such thing as lucky position if you truly know what you are doing, good postition and bad position, when you get "lucky" that is bad position.

People miss for a variety of reasons but the most common IMO is indecisiveness, changing anything after you get down to shoot, which in turn doesn't allow you to properly stroke the ball with confidence. Changing your mind while down shooting affects the way you see the shot and with any type of english other than what you planned originally you more than likely will either miss or alllllmost miss.......... especially on the easy shots and prolly not get shape u indented. Change your mind, get BACK UP!!! I think this is why people jump up its not bad fundamentals its them not being sure of their shot.

I would suggest truly making up your mind before you shoot each shot(english pocketing position break out where the breakout balls are going etc.). You say you "feel" the shots well personally I think you should aim in some way shape or form. At the very least go behind the OB and look into the pocket to help you feel the shot. Also post a video here so we can evaluate your mechanics, suggest what you need to do as far as that.

Eric.
 
I rack balls said:
YOU MUST know why every shot reacts the way it does. Lucky happends but I guarentee you that the top player A and beyond knows where the breakout balls are ending up. There is no such thing as lucky position if you truly know what you are doing, good postition and bad position, when you get "lucky" that is bad position.

People miss for a variety of reasons but the most common IMO is indecisiveness, changing anything after you get down to shoot, which in turn doesn't allow you to properly stroke the ball with confidence. Changing your mind while down shooting affects the way you see the shot and with any type of english other than what you planned originally you more than likely will either miss or alllllmost miss.......... especially on the easy shots and prolly not get shape u indented. Change your mind, get BACK UP!!! I think this is why people jump up its not bad fundamentals its them not being sure of their shot.

I would suggest truly making up your mind before you shoot each shot(english pocketing position break out where the breakout balls are going etc.). You say you "feel" the shots well personally I think you should aim in some way shape or form. At the very least go behind the OB and look into the pocket to help you feel the shot. Also post a video here so we can evaluate your mechanics, suggest what you need to do as far as that.

Eric.
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Can't argue with that reply. Good advice.

I would consider myself a B player, maybe some kind people would say an A but I really have no idea, but you'll see me look surprised when my positional play goes wrong, not when it works.
 
We're ALL "feel players"... from worst to best, feel is a major part or everyone's game.

However, if you go back and read what you have written describing your game, I'm sure you'll agree that you are probably at a level much lower than a "B".

I agree with other posters in that you should find someone to help you with the concepts of the game. Judging by the time and effort you have put into improving, I think you should have a better understanding of all the aspects of the game. You need someone to "make things click"...

I think you understand that your game relies on "luck" too much and you want to change things....
 
"Use the Force" Just watch the real Star Wars movies instead of playing pool, pay close attention, clear your mind and "use the force" it works.
 
I can run racks when I'm playing well but I sometimes mess up easy shots/leaves

Just from that statement it shows your not doing the same thing in your routine every time you shoot or play. If you did you would get close to the same results every time. I think a few lessons are in order for you and then see if game repeats better. The days your running racks your a B player...shoot to become that all the time. Most on here would be very happy to be a true B player. A true "B" player can make money shooting pool if he or she knows how to match up. You should also win or cash in most bar barbox touraments IMO. Johnnyt
 
I rack balls said:
YOU MUST know why every shot reacts the way it does. Lucky happends but I guarentee you that the top player A and beyond knows where the breakout balls are ending up. There is no such thing as lucky position if you truly know what you are doing, good postition and bad position, when you get "lucky" that is bad position.

People miss for a variety of reasons but the most common IMO is indecisiveness, changing anything after you get down to shoot, which in turn doesn't allow you to properly stroke the ball with confidence. Changing your mind while down shooting affects the way you see the shot and with any type of english other than what you planned originally you more than likely will either miss or alllllmost miss.......... especially on the easy shots and prolly not get shape u indented. Change your mind, get BACK UP!!! I think this is why people jump up its not bad fundamentals its them not being sure of their shot.

I would suggest truly making up your mind before you shoot each shot(english pocketing position break out where the breakout balls are going etc.). You say you "feel" the shots well personally I think you should aim in some way shape or form. At the very least go behind the OB and look into the pocket to help you feel the shot. Also post a video here so we can evaluate your mechanics, suggest what you need to do as far as that.

Eric.
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This is good solid advice from a young man who has worked very hard on his game and is improving at a meteoric pace.
 
I have to *think* about how I am going to hit the cue ball before each shot to get it to go the direction I want after the shot, then use the correct speed (know from practice) to get it to go the correct distance.

The video which helped me the most so far as getting position is Dr. Dave's "Illustrated Principles of Pool and Billiards" DVD. I saw with this video that I had options with each shot as to where I could send the cue ball after each shot. I could go forwards, backwards, sideways, etc. Just depended on how I hit the cue ball.

Then I learned (by watching the video) to roughly predict what direction the cue ball would go after a shot depending on how I hit it.

Then of course add the right speed and bingo! Cue ball left where I wanted.

Then once I knew (in my mind) what to do to get the cue ball to go where I wanted after a shot, then I just kept practicing this stuff for several years. Paid attention to where the cue ball went after each shot.

Now I can pretty much leave the cue ball where I want after a shot and pocket my ball. (There was a period where I left the cue ball where I wanted, but did not pocket the ball!)

Dr Dave's DVD...
http://dr-dave-billiards.com/cd_dvd/dvd_description.html
 
Ya that was too long. Shoulda shortened it.
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I don't agree with most of this advice.

Don't watch videos to get what you're looking for (not that they're bad), get a BOOK. Hilla Hilla's advice is good.

I always liked "the 99 critical shots" a ton. It helped me a lot to go from spinning every shot in and only being able to guess my leave, to being able to carefully and control the path to avoid balls, guarantee I get the correct angle, etc. I actually didn't take the lessons to heart until years after I picked up the book, but I at least undersood my own bad habits because of it, and eventually stopped being lazy and forced myself to overcome them.

One of the hardest things to do in pool is to move backwards a little bit in order to move forward... I used to low-outside every ball in whether it needed it or not, and it was very hard for me to force myself to use center ball or just draw when the book says that's the correct english to get where I want. I missed a LOT of balls that I normally would hit 100% using lame bad habits, and I also dogged my leaves for a while using weird, unfamiliar english like "a little below center with no sidespin" (lol).

Eventually though it paid off, and paid big. I surprise myself with the precise leaves I can get now, and I run out a lot more. There's a real satisfaction in doing everything in this exact mechanical way, and having every result go exactly as predicted. A good book can get you there. You can get there without it but there are so many nuances to english like throw, using hits just above or below center to put more 'stun angle' into your leave, the effect of combining draw + side or top + side, and how spin takes at certain angles after hitting a rail, etc etc etc zzzzzzzzz

The book is a super cheap way to getting to understanding, and understanding is the most important (and fastest) path to getting GOOD.
 
CreeDo said:
Ya that was too long. Shoulda shortened it.
-----

I don't agree with most of this advice.

Don't watch videos to get what you're looking for (not that they're bad), get a BOOK. Hilla Hilla's advice is good.

I always liked "the 99 critical shots" a ton. It helped me a lot to go from spinning every shot in and only being able to guess my leave, to being able to carefully and control the path to avoid balls, guarantee I get the correct angle, etc. I actually didn't take the lessons to heart until years after I picked up the book, but I at least undersood my own bad habits because of it, and eventually stopped being lazy and forced myself to overcome them.

One of the hardest things to do in pool is to move backwards a little bit in order to move forward... I used to low-outside every ball in whether it needed it or not, and it was very hard for me to force myself to use center ball or just draw when the book says that's the correct english to get where I want. I missed a LOT of balls that I normally would hit 100% using lame bad habits, and I also dogged my leaves for a while using weird, unfamiliar english like "a little below center with no sidespin" (lol).

Eventually though it paid off, and paid big. I surprise myself with the precise leaves I can get now, and I run out a lot more. There's a real satisfaction in doing everything in this exact mechanical way, and having every result go exactly as predicted. A good book can get you there. You can get there without it but there are so many nuances to english like throw, using hits just above or below center to put more 'stun angle' into your leave, the effect of combining draw + side or top + side, and how spin takes at certain angles after hitting a rail, etc etc etc zzzzzzzzz

The book is a super cheap way to getting to understanding, and understanding is the most important (and fastest) path to getting GOOD.
Click to expand...


The fact is that most people do not learn more or faster by reading... Most people learn more when watching video, or doing things hands on.... So stating that the book is a better idea is wrong for the masses
 
I've learned from books, videos, internet, instructors, and good players.

So far as books go, there are some excellent books like 99 critical shots. I can set these shots up and try them. Also pool playing in general. The basics. Terms used. Like draw, follow, english, etc.

But for other things like running a table and leaving position (30/90 degree rules, etc), well Jimmy Reid's "Art of 8 ball" video made it click for me so far as running a table goes. I could not get this from a book. And for leaving position, Dr. Dave's DVD made it click for me. I read this same stuff in books, but did not "get it". I had to see it being done to understand it.

So I guess in general, it it is a shot, drills, etc., then books are fine for me. But if it is something "in motion", then I understand better if I can see it demonstrated in a video.

Then for something like safety play, books and videos do not cut it. The thing which really made it click for me was watching better players and having a better player coach me during my playing.

And for something like stroke, only another person watching (instructor) can tell me what I am doing/not doing. What I need to work on. A video can show me what I should be doing. But still need someone watching me to give me feedback.

Then people learn differently. Some can learn a lot on their own. Some do better in a structured environment (school).
 
respectfully disagree bpg. It worked fine for me, it's worked fine for several friends too.

I know there are some visual learners out there who are hopeless with books, but I don't think that's "the masses", just a handful. There are plenty of shots and safes I got without having seen them hit in real life. To use bob's example, I never ever had a person demonstrate the 90 degree rule, I learned it from the book, and I read about the 30 degree rule on the net, and was able to start using it right away.

If you can take the contents of a book like the 99 critical shots, and have someone illustrate each shot on video, maybe that's as good as a book, but books do have some small advantages.. you can earmark and go back to a page without rewinding to an exact point, put the thing on the rail, stare at the diagrams, etc.

Of course at the end of the day there's no substitute for actual playing and competing, book or video aside.
 
response to Para "3"

In response to chapter 3 in your novel, there are 100's of correct ways to run out an 8 ball rack after each break. You shouldnt be simply finding "1" pattern, then sticking to it come hell or high water. Play for position on a designated next ball, but leave yourself some outs if you lose the cue ball. I like to tackle the tricky leaves first thing, while I have numerous secondary targets as a backup, and I play those into my calculations. IE: if I over draw for my position, that will put me in line for XX ball in such a way to give me yet another chance to get onto that tough leave...and on and on and on. The further into the rack you get w/o getting that one crucial position, the fewer and fewer outs or opportunities your left with. If I get to a point in the rack where I cant reliablyget on that ball, or cant get a predictable break out, I'll stop concentrating on getting there, and simply start looking for a nuts safety. If you cant run em, dont. Duck and cover, and do it well, you'll get back to the table and start the whole process over again.
 
If you are really serious, then just keep practicing. It takes time, lots of missed shots and losses to become a consistent A player or better.
 
ndakotan said:
I suppose I'm a B player, I can run racks when I'm playing well but I sometimes mess up easy shots/leaves. I play bar box 8 ball in tournaments and leagues. I try not to play "for fun", I always am trying to improve when I'm playing, even if it is just against friends. I practice a lot, and read as much as I can on strokes, shot selection, shotmaking, and position play. I have only been playing serious pool for 4 years. I was a ballbanger for all my life except the last two years, now I am trying to play shape. I wanted to post my current thought process and see if anyone had any insight.

1. I am a creative player (based upon the reaction I get to my shot selection and shotmaking) that is not afraid to "go for it". I have played in several tournaments where I make caroms, billiards, combos, and/or banks that my oponent didn't expect me to make.

2. I am a feel player in more ways than 1. First, in aiming/stroking, I am going off feel and "shot learning". I know this because I don't use any type of system for aiming, and I can subconciously know that I am out of aim and I subconciously try to correct. The best example of this is when I want to make a ball in off another ball that is beside the pocket. I have a very difficult time hitting the carom, the shot usually goes clean, even when I line up for the carom. I think it is very difficult for me to shoot at anything other than a pocket. This is negatively affecting my play to some extent (safeties, moving balls, and cheating the pocket are the big areas).

3. Ever since I started learning to play position, I have found that I tend to get position based on feel also. I don't know how this works, or if it is actually happening, but I tend to get shape on balls I didn't consider getting shape on. If I am shooting the 5, going for shape on the 3, I may get good shape on a tough 6 that is even better. In another example, I once played a shot in a tournament that was my last ball before a tied-up 8 ball that was on the other end of the table. I played postion on my last ball to let me stroke it and go around the table 3 rails and knock into the cluster hoping to get lucky. I ended up hitting the 8 ball cluster off the 2nd rail, hitting it just right for an easy shot on the 8 ball. It is like I was conciously trying for a lucky shape and I got lucky by getting shape another way. I also tend to get "lucky" shape more often then not, especially off breakouts.

4. The quality and quantity of my "lucky" shape shots appears to be directly related to how I am playing. If I am running balls, getting good shape, "feeling" it, I tend to get good shapes on my breakouts and I rarely miss the trouble shapes. On the other hand, when I am out of stroke, hoping for the best, mad because I am not breaking well, I tend to get tied up easier.

5. I feel that in order to get better, I have to understand how I shoot and why I miss shots/shape. I know that I rely heavily on my stroke rythym, if that is off, I might as well go home. I also miss due to a tight grip (I truly believe that a light grip is the key to pool), choking up on the cue, inconsistent foot placement, inconsistent stance, and "jabby" "jerky strokes. When I don't do these things, I play pretty well. Then one day, I can go to the pool hall and something is off. Just today, I realized that my stance/foot placement was causing me to miss shots. I think that when my stance is off, my stroke plane is inconsistent. My brain tries to correct by throwing my elbow out for some reason. I am working on trying to learn quickly when I am doing something that contradicts my good play.

6. I don't have a pre-shot routine, but I am working hard on this. It makes sense to me that I need a "key" to tell my mind and body that I intend to shoot. A routine should do this.

7. I am learning to play shape on intended balls by forcing myself to imagine what I want to happen and not rewarding myself when something else happens, even if it "works".

8. I have a lot of work to do to get the hang of shape off 2 or more rails. I know some of the rail systems, but I tend to not catch on to the sratch lines.

9. I play much better when I am shooting medium-soft and softer shots. When I start shooting hard, I get out of stroke. I need to learn how to shoot hard and then go back to soft right away.

10. When I have to jack up over a ball, I am inconsistent. I can be half-an-inch off on my contact point, other times, I hit the ball right where I intended.

11. I am more likely to miss shape based upon speed than angle. I try to play the angles and enter the position zones the right way, but I can greatly misjudge speed.

12. I think I need a lot of work on putting the tip on the c.b. in the right spot. When I use english or top/bottom, I tend to "over spin" I am not good at "medium" draw, follow, or english. I hit the c.b. where I was pre-stroking for some reason, especially if I am using english.

13. I think that when I do miss, I tend to take a big breath right in the middle of the shot due to uncertainty and "I hope this is right". When I am playing well, my breathing is hidden in my rythym. I do not know how to explain this, nor do I know what to look for to correct this. I just have an intuition that sometimes I miss because stress and anticipation cause me to berathe incorrectly. I do not have any idea what is correct.

Here are my questions for discussion:

a. Can/should "feel" players learn to understand how it works so they can get the feel back if they need to (feel can leave me if I am tired or sick).

b. Any thoughts on someone that seems to always get "lucky" shape?

c. Any thoughts on how to learn to shoot for something other than pockets for safeties.

d. Any thoughts/insights on why people miss?

e. Am I more susceptible to stroke faults than other people? I know several people that have non-textbook styles that seem to do pretty well. Pool and golf can be frustrating because one little problem causes big issues for me, but the guy next to me has terrible form/stroke/swing and does pretty well. Why?

f. Any thoughts on rythym and/or breathing would be appreciated.

g. Can a guy improve to an A if he doesn't worry about all of this?
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Yikes! How long did this take to write? :eek:

For a "feel" player, yer sure doin' a lot of thinkin' here! :D


Seems to me a lot of this stuff could be dealt with pretty quickly in a lesson.

Good luck!
 
ndakotan said:
4. The quality and quantity of my "lucky" shape shots appears to be directly related to how I am playing. If I am running balls, getting good shape, "feeling" it, I tend to get good shapes on my breakouts and I rarely miss the trouble shapes. On the other hand, when I am out of stroke, hoping for the best, mad because I am not breaking well, I tend to get tied up easier.
Click to expand...

Without references, it is difficult to recover when you loose the feeling. It's like not knowing where you are and not knowing where you need to be. How could you find your way back? Developing a set of well defined references during practice helps to keep you from getting lost, and if you do, they help you get back to where you want to be.

Consistency is the name of this game. A solid pre-shot routine coupled with solid mechanics will keep you from straying very far.
 
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