Female players

golubushka said:
Sorry it's my first time doing it here, and I think I'm done now anyway....

Edit: I come from a warrior tribe (as does my wife)...and I have daughters...if I fall in battle, they'll have to take up the sword and continue for me...and I ain't the least bit worried....
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No biggie...it's just funny. I actually followed the whole thing, because other than a few morons, both sides have valid points. They just see through different colored lenses.
 
Tommy Joe said:
First of all, you're using the term "A Man's World", which is a misnomer for sure. Just because you read somewhere that this is a "mans world" doesn't mean it is or ever was. When it comes to humans, it's a human world. Men did not force women to their current position, favorable or otherwise - it was a joint effort from the start. I never said women aren't as smart as men, or as capable. My only complaint is how they want to be in the arena with the men but only at their own choosing. Men are forced into that arena whether they like it or not. This discussion was about female pool players. From there it can branch off into many related topics. My main purpose in jumping into this thread was to point out that for years women have cried about not be "allowed" to play on the same field as men, when surely that is not the case at all. They want to take their shots against the men in many fields while at the same time retaining their own safe haven to run back to when things get too tough. Just admit it and I'm out of here. In fact, I think I'm out of here anyway.

TJ
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Well you must not be too much a student of history. In most societies throughout history women have been treated as lesser beings than men. Even in our own society formed on the basis of all men being created equally women did not even get the right to vote until 1919, about 150 years after the Declaration of Independence.

Some places in the world today women are still treated as inferior and have far less rights than the men.

So women are right to complain that they are not "allowed" to compete equally because even today, they aren't. Typically a woman who reaches the top of any profession has to work harder than her male colleagues to reach the same level.

It definitely WAS a man's world for most of history and even today is still very much a man's world in some countries. Sorry but when any person is restricted and discriminated agains then they are not competing with the dominant group. They are subjugated to the dominant group.

And any time one group dominates another group then the subjugated group has to be more creative to survive in my opinion.

You said one reason women can't compete is that they are not as creative. I don't agree and think that as their creativity is allowed to flourish and be directed at other productive things in life than survival and getting-along in a man's world they will prove to be equally as creative. If you want one-off examples, who invented frequency spectrum hopping. Betcha don't know without googling it, but that's cool, google it and see. http://www.maximumpc.com/article/features/15_most_important_women_tech_history
 
Jean Balukas and Ruth McGinniss grew up playing almost exclusively with men...and high level players, at that. That's why folks always talk about them as the exception to the rule about relative levels between the sexes. IMHO, too many pro women spend too much time playing just each other. They dip into open tournaments, but not often enough. They play a different style of play, more finesse, and don't use the same touch as the top men in their game. I don't know why exactly that is, because the minimum level of strength required of the hands and arms to play that way don't exceed a pro woman player's physical ability. You don't need to be able to curl 200 pounds to break at 25 mph. It's more technique than brute strength. The ladies just haven't gotten used to playing that way over the years. Some do, but it's almost always women that play mostly with men in competition. You see it all the time at the upper amateur levels; we've all seen female players in open tournaments that only play against men that seem to have a more muscular way of playing.

I think we'll see women go deep in the U.S. Open or DCC in the next 5-10 years; but they will be players that spend most of their time playing with men in competition.
 
JB Cases said:
Well you must not be too much a student of history. In most societies throughout history women have been treated as lesser beings than men. Even in our own society formed on the basis of all men being created equally women did not even get the right to vote until 1919, about 150 years after the Declaration of Independence.

Some places in the world today women are still treated as inferior and have far less rights than the men.

So women are right to complain that they are not "allowed" to compete equally because even today, they aren't. Typically a woman who reaches the top of any profession has to work harder than her male colleagues to reach the same level.

It definitely WAS a man's world for most of history and even today is still very much a man's world in some countries. Sorry but when any person is restricted and discriminated agains then they are not competing with the dominant group. They are subjugated to the dominant group.

And any time one group dominates another group then the subjugated group has to be more creative to survive in my opinion.

You said one reason women can't compete is that they are not as creative. I don't agree and think that as their creativity is allowed to flourish and be directed at other productive things in life than survival and getting-along in a man's world they will prove to be equally as creative. If you want one-off examples, who invented frequency spectrum hopping. Betcha don't know without googling it, but that's cool, google it and see. http://www.maximumpc.com/article/features/15_most_important_women_tech_history
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I don't know what spectrum hopping is, let alone who invented it. Neither do I care.

Up until the computer age, the development of human history has been driven forward by the genius of men from every conceivable field. Perhaps you can point me in the direction of Mrs Socrates, Ms Einstein, Ms Beethoven, Miss Newton?
 
Pathetic Shark said:
I don't know what spectrum hopping is, let alone who invented it. Neither do I care.

Up until the computer age, the development of human history has been driven forward by the genius of men from every conceivable field. Perhaps you can point me in the direction of Mrs Socrates, Ms Einstein, Ms Beethoven, Miss Newton?
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Well that's the exact point now isn't it? In a society that does not treat women as equals how would women even have the chance to be Socrates, Einstein, Newton and so on??

You really have a broken google don't you? Either that or you just revel in winding people up and being proven wrong. Hedy Lamar, the famous actress, invented frequency hopping in her spare time. This helped the allies to defeat the germans by allowing the communications to rapidly jump frequencies while being broadcast and still be clear on the other end. But the ones trying to intercept the radio waves couldn't lock on to the right frequency. So without Hedy Lamar you might be speaking German right now and honoring Hitler or your ancestors might have been killed and we wouldn't have the pleasure of your contributions.

100 Most Important Women in History

http://www.angelfire.com/anime2/100import/curie.html

http://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/Ten-Historic-Female-Scientists-You-Should-Know.html

http://discovermagazine.com/2002/nov/feat50 - top women in science

Lise Meitner (1878-1968) In 1938, after she escaped from the Nazis to Sweden, she carried out the key calculations that led to the discovery of nuclear fission. Her collaborator, Otto Hahn, who stayed behind in Germany, was the sole recipient of the Nobel Prize in chemistry in 1944. In 1997 Meitner was finally honored when element 109 was named meitnerium.

Emmy Noether (1882-1935) She devised a mathematical principle, called Noether's theorem, which became a foundation stone of quantum physics. Her calculations helped Einstein formulate his general theory of relativity. "It is really through her that I have become competent in the subject," he admitted.

Frieda Robscheit-Robbins (1893-1973) Together with George Whipple, she discovered that a diet rich in liver cured anemia in dogs, which in turn led directly to treatment for pernicious anemia in humans. Although she coauthored numerous papers with Whipple, it was he who was honored with the 1934 Nobel Prize in medicine.

Hilde Mangold (1898-1924) Under the guidance of Hans Spemann, she carried out the experiments that led to the discovery of the organizer effect, which directs the development of embryonic cells into tissues and organs. She died after being set afire by an alcohol stove on which she was heating food for her baby. Eleven years later, Spemann won the Nobel Prize.

Cecilia Payne-Gaposchkin (1900-1979) In her 1925 Ph.D. thesis—described by the noted astronomer Otto Struve in 1960 as "the most brilliant . . . ever written in astronomy"—she proposed that all stars are made mostly of hydrogen and helium. Astronomers dismissed her observations until four years later, when they were confirmed by a man. She was the first woman to become a professor of science at Harvard.

Beatrice "Tilly" Shilling (1909-1990) A prize-winning motorcycle racer and aeronautical engineer, she designed a small metal ring that fit onto the fuel line of an aircraft engine to keep the flow of fuel constant. This enabled World War II British fighter pilots to dive without fear that their engines would cut out.

Chien-Shiung Wu (1912-1997) In 1957 she and her colleagues overthrew a principle previously considered immutable in physics: that nature does not distinguish between right and left. Chien-Shiung found that this rule does not hold true for interactions between subatomic particles involving the so-called weak force. The Nobel Prize was awarded to two male colleagues.

Rosalind Franklin (1920-1958) Her X-ray photographs of crystallized DNA, taken in the early 1950s, proved that the molecule was a helix. This data was used, without her knowledge, by James Watson and Francis Crick to elucidate the structure of DNA. By the time they were awarded the Nobel Prize in 1962, Franklin had died of ovarian cancer.

Jocelyn Bell Burnell (1943-) With the aid of a radio telescope she built herself, she became the first astronomer to detect pulsars—rapidly spinning, extremely dense neutron stars. But she was deemed too inexperienced to receive the Nobel Prize, which was given instead in 1974 to her thesis adviser, Anthony Hewish—a man who later referred to her as "a jolly good girl [who] was just doing her job."


— Josie Glausiusz
 
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Tommy Joe said:
Why didn't YOU do something about it? I don't think you get the point, that men have to deal with whatever environment exists, and they don't all like it or handle it any better than you or other women. I have never enjoyed being around a lot of hustlers. I don't like the bullshit. I felt the same as you but I didn't have gender to hide behind. You just can't accept that men have to put up with the same crap you don't care for and it's not their duty alone to change things. You seem to feel that all these roadblocks were put up to detour you alone, but everyone has to go through them. I am not a lover of competition - the grind of life, I don't like it - but that's the way it is - and if women ran things (which they do as surely as every puppet has a puppeteer behind it), openly ran things, I believe things would be no different - just as countries run by females are no less likely to get into wars. In this discussion I get the feeling that some women feel about men the same as many large retail stores feel about Walmart - that they're the evil giant - when in reality all the stores beneath them are aspiring to be the same. I'm not condoning the boorish behavior in poolroom, but it is a competitive atmosphere, and I'm sure it's that way at it's highest level in all sports including even the so called gentlemanly ones such as golf.
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What makes you think I just sat back and didn't try to do anything about it? Of course I tried to do something about it. I have a history of several threats on my life by pool room bullies in my efforts to try to do something about it. But I couldn't do it alone. No one wanted to step up like I did. NO ONE.

The last thing you should be doing is blaming bad behavior by others on people like me. I thought we were all in this together but history has proven that in the pool world, it's every MAN for himself.

And that is what is destroying this game, because not only is this bad pool room behavior turning women off, it's turning many honest and decent men off to the game as well. But as long as the majority of men who play pool are willing to put up with it, we will remain stagnated.
 
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Women Are Way Smarter than Men/WHY

Because they don't like being broke all the time, and chose pool to NOT be their path. Good decision, smart if ya ask me :grin-square:
 
JB Cases said:
Well that's the exact point now isn't it? In a society that does not treat women as equals how would women even have the chance to be Socrates, Einstein, Newton and so on??

You really have a broken google don't you? Either that or you just revel in winding people up and being proven wrong. Hedy Lamar, the famous actress, invented frequency hopping in her spare time. This helped the allies to defeat the germans by allowing the communications to rapidly jump frequencies while being broadcast and still be clear on the other end. But the ones trying to intercept the radio waves couldn't lock on to the right frequency. So without Hedy Lamar you might be speaking German right now and honoring Hitler or your ancestors might have been killed and we wouldn't have the pleasure of your contributions.

100 Most Important Women in History

http://www.angelfire.com/anime2/100import/curie.html

http://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/Ten-Historic-Female-Scientists-You-Should-Know.html

http://discovermagazine.com/2002/nov/feat50 - top women in science

Lise Meitner (1878-1968) In 1938, after she escaped from the Nazis to Sweden, she carried out the key calculations that led to the discovery of nuclear fission. Her collaborator, Otto Hahn, who stayed behind in Germany, was the sole recipient of the Nobel Prize in chemistry in 1944. In 1997 Meitner was finally honored when element 109 was named meitnerium.

Emmy Noether (1882-1935) She devised a mathematical principle, called Noether's theorem, which became a foundation stone of quantum physics. Her calculations helped Einstein formulate his general theory of relativity. "It is really through her that I have become competent in the subject," he admitted.

Frieda Robscheit-Robbins (1893-1973) Together with George Whipple, she discovered that a diet rich in liver cured anemia in dogs, which in turn led directly to treatment for pernicious anemia in humans. Although she coauthored numerous papers with Whipple, it was he who was honored with the 1934 Nobel Prize in medicine.

Hilde Mangold (1898-1924) Under the guidance of Hans Spemann, she carried out the experiments that led to the discovery of the organizer effect, which directs the development of embryonic cells into tissues and organs. She died after being set afire by an alcohol stove on which she was heating food for her baby. Eleven years later, Spemann won the Nobel Prize.

Cecilia Payne-Gaposchkin (1900-1979) In her 1925 Ph.D. thesis—described by the noted astronomer Otto Struve in 1960 as "the most brilliant . . . ever written in astronomy"—she proposed that all stars are made mostly of hydrogen and helium. Astronomers dismissed her observations until four years later, when they were confirmed by a man. She was the first woman to become a professor of science at Harvard.

Beatrice "Tilly" Shilling (1909-1990) A prize-winning motorcycle racer and aeronautical engineer, she designed a small metal ring that fit onto the fuel line of an aircraft engine to keep the flow of fuel constant. This enabled World War II British fighter pilots to dive without fear that their engines would cut out.

Chien-Shiung Wu (1912-1997) In 1957 she and her colleagues overthrew a principle previously considered immutable in physics: that nature does not distinguish between right and left. Chien-Shiung found that this rule does not hold true for interactions between subatomic particles involving the so-called weak force. The Nobel Prize was awarded to two male colleagues.

Rosalind Franklin (1920-1958) Her X-ray photographs of crystallized DNA, taken in the early 1950s, proved that the molecule was a helix. This data was used, without her knowledge, by James Watson and Francis Crick to elucidate the structure of DNA. By the time they were awarded the Nobel Prize in 1962, Franklin had died of ovarian cancer.

Jocelyn Bell Burnell (1943-) With the aid of a radio telescope she built herself, she became the first astronomer to detect pulsars—rapidly spinning, extremely dense neutron stars. But she was deemed too inexperienced to receive the Nobel Prize, which was given instead in 1974 to her thesis adviser, Anthony Hewish—a man who later referred to her as "a jolly good girl [who] was just doing her job."


— Josie Glausiusz
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Yeah, but what have they done for us lately?

As for Hedley Lamarr, I preferred her in Blazing Saddles.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gBmkyDTX08Y
 
FranCrimi said:
And that is what is destroying this game, because not only is this bad pool room behavior turning women off, it's turning many honest and decent men off to the game as well.
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I haven't agreed with everything you have said on this thread, but you nailed this comment right on the head!!! (Hey, I'm a poet and didn't know it :D)

Maniac (mostly stays home now to play pool)
 
Okay.....hypothetical scenario and question:

If you took the top 32 men pool players in the world and the top 32 women pool players in the world and held a 64 person 9-ball tournament (race to nine, alternating break) every weekend with these same players, how long do you think it would take for a woman to win this tournament?

Keep in mind that I DO understand that 10-ball, or longer races, or winner breaks formats would add an advantage to the men. So, let's just keep it to the same scenario mentioned above for simplicity.

How many weeks go by before a woman wins???

Maniac (shoulda started a new thread, but this IS on-topic)
 
Maniac said:
Okay.....hypothetical scenario and question:

If you took the top 32 men pool players in the world and the top 32 women pool players in the world and held a 64 person 9-ball tournament (race to nine, alternating break) every weekend with these same players, how long do you think it would take for a woman to win this tournament?

Keep in mind that I DO understand that 10-ball, or longer races, or winner breaks formats would add an advantage to the men. So, let's just keep it to the same scenario mentioned above for simplicity.

How many weeks go by before a woman wins???

Maniac (shoulda started a new thread, but this IS on-topic)
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That is an interesting question, I can't think of a single open tournament where there were several top men playing as well as women where a woman has won. Even in local tournaments I have played in where there was a woman playing (even handicapped), I can't think of a single time that a woman has won. My 13 yr old son playing as a 3 in a tornament, beat a woman about double his age also a 3, 3-1. The only woman that did cashed in that tournament was a 2.
 
golubushka said:
Yea...remember the King and His Court the mens fast pitch team...what was it a 5 man team that would take on all comers, with the King as the pitcher....

Edit: It was a 4 man team....
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Yep, saw them a real long time ago, don't even wanna guess when... but had to be over 30 years ago....

a pitcher, a catcher, and 2 infielders... kinda crazy.
 
FranCrimi said:
That's right, John. The differences are sociological. The women are not as willing to put up with that crap. I've bitten the bullet over the years and jumped into many local tournaments against the guys. I remember one guy, pretty well known, running around the table like a speed demon, carrying on like an idiot...oh wait.... that's because he was playing on speed. It's just ridiculous to have to play in that kind of environment. I had hoped things would get better in time. But the male ego is hard to crack.

There were hundreds of incidents like that. I remember another local tournament I played where I won a match and the guy I beat came screaming in my face about how he could beat me on his worst day. Seriously? We're supposed to want to endure that to get better?

I've seen fistfights, shootings, pool cues cracked over heads, dirty dealings, stealing, cheating, robbing. All men.

You guys took away a decent environment for us all to enjoy the game together and you have the gall to complain that we can't play?
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TOOK AWAY. Who the hell do you think let you in , in the first place.
 
decent dennis said:
TOOK AWAY. Who the hell do you think let you in , in the first place.
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That's just a tad arrogant, wouldn't you say? How exactly did men "allow" woman to play pool. They have no say so, no more than a woman can tell you that you can go to ballerina classes, right ?

PS: dont get all huffy, i'm using "ballerina" clases as an example of where many men don't frequent and I"m not talking about you presonally
 
ChicagoRJ said:
That's just a tad arrogant, wouldn't you say? How exactly did men "allow" woman to play pool. They have no say so, no more than a woman can tell you that you can go to ballerina classes, right ?

PS: dont get all huffy, i'm using "ballerina" clases as an example of where many men don't frequent and I"m not talking about you presonally
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I believe men allowed women to vote. Right or wrong?
 
To me it is purely a numbers thing. To become a top male player you have to elevate to the top of a much larger number of players. To become a top female player and compete against the best woman players you are dealing with a much smaller number of players. If pool were as popular for woman as it is for men there would not be the gap between the two. Competition always brings the cream to the top.
 
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