Ferrule Idea - Is it new?

HeLLFiSH

HeLLFiSH

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
As I was going through Dzuricky's website, I saw his graphite insert shafts and how it was made. I thought, why not have a one piece insert that is also a hallow ferrule? Has it been done before?

I've drafted some 3D images.
The idea I had was essentially the component in the middle.

Top View of the shaft: Shaft, short 0.25" ferrule, and carbon fiber tip pad.
Top_Full.jpg


Exploded view, notice the one piece hallow ferrule insert made of carbon fiber for its light weight and strength
Exploded.jpg


Side profile with the parts together.
Top_Cut.jpg


Exploded hallow view
exploded_hallow.jpg


What are your inputs? Would it be low deflection? The hallow ferrule insert is in the shaft is 5" deep, and 5/16" outside diameter of insert end. The reason for the thin carbon fiber pad is to keep the ferrule insert hallow, while at the same time have contact surface for the tip.

How much would it cost to make something like this?
Would it violate Predators Patent? its not a complete hallow.
 
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dunkelcustomcue said:
I believe Jerry Powers owns the patent to a similar idea.
Click to expand...

Looking at his flyer for the STNGER, http://www.jericocues.net/images/Stinger/Stingerflyer.pdf
it states Patent Number 5262490 for the jump/break.
According to Google, the patent number listed is about 'Fluoroelastomer composition with organo-onium compounds', thats weird. He meant patent 5462490.
In his flyer, it mentions a patented 'tip/ferrule system'. My idea is just for the 'hallow ferrule insert', not the tip or tip/ferrule.
 
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This is one of those can of worms that has been gone over before. I believe he is also leasing the patent to Mcdermott.
I'm pretty sure Tigers new ferrule had a small dowel going into the shaft. I'd be interested to see how it would work.
Oh by the way awesome drawings!
 
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HeLLFiSH said:
As I was going through Dzuricky's website, I saw his graphite insert shafts and how it was made. I thought, why not have a one piece insert that is also a hallow ferrule? Has it been done before?

What are your inputs? Would it be low deflection? The hallow ferrule insert is in the shaft is 5" deep, and 5/16" outside diameter of insert end. The reason for the thin carbon fiber pad is to keep the ferrule insert hallow, while at the same time have contact surface for the tip.

How much would it cost to make something like this?
Would it violate Predators Patent? its not a complete hallow.
Click to expand...

I don't hold any patents but I've been doing it essentially the same since 1995 or so. My "graphite" tubing is actually a carbon fiber tube, 3/8" diameter with a 1/32" wall and 7" long. My first experiments used the tubing from graphite fishing poles & the name stuck.

My tubing doesn't change the weight very much. Initial testing showed the before/after weights were within .1 gram. Of course, this will depend on the density of the maple used but, for all practical purposes, you won't be lessening tip end mass. However, you will make the shaft appreciably stiffer. For some reason, this SOMETIMES affects deflection in a favorable way - though not as much as a true LD shaft. I just like the stiffness you can get without resorting to telephone pole tapers.

Making tubing per your specs might get pricey. My tubes are mandrel wound & have a consistent wall thickness. To get the larger diameter on the end...I suspect that each tube would have to be custom wound & would still require machining to true up the "ferrule".

Also, this tubing is designed to be resistant to flexing & the ends of the tubing are not the strongest feature of the tubing. I don't think a carbon fiber pad would suffice to protect it. That's why I maintain a bit of clearance between the end of the tubing and the cap on my ferrules. The ferrule bonds to the OD of the tubing while the shaft itself provides a shoulder to reinforce & back up that bond.

This design provides a reinforced hole that is also the ferrule mount. Predator's patent isn't for much more than a simple drilled hole so I see no violation. Of course, I've been wrong many, many times :-)

Now, with all that said, if you have tubing made with a thinner wall & can save some weight, you might get better LD results, though, IMO, you would still need a ferrule to protect the end of the tubing. Still...good thinking!
 
HeLLFiSH said:
As I was going through Dzuricky's website, I saw his graphite insert shafts and how it was made. I thought, why not have a one piece insert that is also a hallow ferrule? Has it been done before?

I've drafted some 3D images.
The idea I had was essentially the component in the middle.

Top View of the shaft: Shaft, short 0.25" ferrule, and carbon fiber tip pad.
Top_Full.jpg


Exploded view, notice the one piece hallow ferrule insert made of carbon fiber for its light weight and strength
Exploded.jpg


Side profile with the parts together.
Top_Cut.jpg


Exploded hallow view
exploded_hallow.jpg


What are your inputs? Would it be low deflection? The hallow ferrule insert is in the shaft is 5" deep, and 5/16" outside diameter of insert end. The reason for the thin carbon fiber pad is to keep the ferrule insert hallow, while at the same time have contact surface for the tip.

How much would it cost to make something like this?
Would it violate Predators Patent? its not a complete hallow.
Click to expand...

the carbon fiber deal should make it different enough to keep it form violating predators patent.
 
dzcues said:
I don't hold any patents but I've been doing it essentially the same since 1995 or so. My "graphite" tubing is actually a carbon fiber tube, 3/8" diameter with a 1/32" wall and 7" long. My first experiments used the tubing from graphite fishing poles & the name stuck.

My tubing doesn't change the weight very much. Initial testing showed the before/after weights were within .1 gram. Of course, this will depend on the density of the maple used but, for all practical purposes, you won't be lessening tip end mass. However, you will make the shaft appreciably stiffer. For some reason, this SOMETIMES affects deflection in a favorable way - though not as much as a true LD shaft. I just like the stiffness you can get without resorting to telephone pole tapers.

Making tubing per your specs might get pricey. My tubes are mandrel wound & have a consistent wall thickness. To get the larger diameter on the end...I suspect that each tube would have to be custom wound & would still require machining to true up the "ferrule".

Also, this tubing is designed to be resistant to flexing & the ends of the tubing are not the strongest feature of the tubing. I don't think a carbon fiber pad would suffice to protect it. That's why I maintain a bit of clearance between the end of the tubing and the cap on my ferrules. The ferrule bonds to the OD of the tubing while the shaft itself provides a shoulder to reinforce & back up that bond.

This design provides a reinforced hole that is also the ferrule mount. Predator's patent isn't for much more than a simple drilled hole so I see no violation. Of course, I've been wrong many, many times :)

Now, with all that said, if you have tubing made with a thinner wall & can save some weight, you might get better LD results, though, IMO, you would still need a ferrule to protect the end of the tubing. Still...good thinking!
Click to expand...

I think the idea behind lowering deflection is by having the cue tip deflect as much as possible. It might be that stiffness near the ferrule helps because it moves the flex point further back, but only if the shaft is able to flex reasonably well at some point along the shaft.

As far as the idea, sounds like it could be expensive/hard to find a tube with the right thickness to machine down past the ferrule area.
 
My carbon shafts from 04 to 2012 were hollow with a ferrule insert and then had the tapered tip holder attach to that. I did do a shaft with an end cap and one tip. The problem was getting a new tip, it had to come back to me. With my tip system, I just post a replacement tip that they can attach. There is pictures of the various tip systems I have made in the albums.
 
Since deflection is dependent on Mass it would make more sense to get rid of all the wood at the tip ... Think Carbon fiber Shaft.
If there is a material with less mass than Carbon Fiber that can hold up to the cue impact then that material would be better and should exibit less deflection.

So ... who is testing deflection?
What kind of test setup is used?
Didnt Bob Meucci have a swing machine that he used to test and document deflection years ago?

I would be very interested in test results from a real scientific test process to see just how much deflection comes into play for the average pool player. Is that reduction in deflection really worth hundreds of dollars to the average C or B player?

Anyone remember the video project of a cue tip striking the cue ball in very slow motion?
I have that VHS around here somewhere and it is truly interesting to watch how much the cue tip actually moves when it strikes the cue ball.

In the high end audio world improvements that require lab equipment to measure cost mega bucks ... $20,000 or more for a turntable ... $10,000 for a phono cartridge ... worth it?
 
WilleeCue said:
Since deflection is dependent on Mass it would make more sense to get rid of all the wood at the tip ... Think Carbon fiber Shaft.
If there is a material with less mass than Carbon Fiber that can hold up to the cue impact then that material would be better and should exibit less deflection.

So ... who is testing deflection?
What kind of test setup is used?
Didnt Bob Meucci have a swing machine that he used to test and document deflection years ago?

I would be very interested in test results from a real scientific test process to see just how much deflection comes into play for the average pool player. Is that reduction in deflection really worth hundreds of dollars to the average C or B player?

Anyone remember the video project of a cue tip striking the cue ball in very slow motion?
I have that VHS around here somewhere and it is truly interesting to watch how much the cue tip actually moves when it strikes the cue ball.

In the high end audio world improvements that require lab equipment to measure cost mega bucks ... $20,000 or more for a turntable ... $10,000 for a phono cartridge ... worth it?
Click to expand...

Dr. Dave has addressed this over the years:

Published Data for Shaft CB Deflections - Dr. Dave Pool Info

Answers to frequently-asked questions about published data for shaft squirt amounts in pool and billiards.
billiards.colostate.edu billiards.colostate.edu
 
Perhaps Bob can enlighten us further,but it SURE looks to me like your idea works,as long as you are prepared to overcome the technical challenges of getting a hole that deep AND straight into a wooden dowel. Tommy D.
 
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