Few free streams in US

[Donny Lutz]

Why are there so many free streams coming from outside the US and so few from within?

Could it have anything to do with greed?

Why would low-income players pay for streams, especially of dubious quality?

Why would people unfamiliar to the game pay to watch it?


Do streamers really expect folks to pay to watch live streams when...

Matches rarely start on time.

Tuning in will likely bring up an empty table.

Announcers often ignore the match before them, talking instead about another match, their dinner, etc.

A match is playing without commentary.

Names of players are often not on the screen.

The score is not kept up to date or is non-existent.

There is little explanation of what's going on for newcomers to pool?

...jus' askin'...

 

[9andout]

Free is the best!
But I have to say the SVB CSI match the other night was high quality.
Def. more professional than most.

 

[garczar]

Hell yeah it's greed, this is AMERICA not fkn broke-ass Greece. Seriously, without a good sponsorship/vendor package you can't do these( not well anyway) for free. So pay up and enjoy.

 

[Donny Lutz]

free streams

Hell yeah it's greed, this is AMERICA not fkn broke-ass Greece. Seriously, without a good sponsorship/vendor package you can't do these( not well anyway) for free. So pay up and enjoy.

Did you actually read my opening comment?

China and Japan are hardly "fkn broke-ass" countries. Their streams are generally outstanding quality...and many are free. Tens of millions of Americans are struggling to make ends meet. Guess they're just out of luck when it comes to live streams.

Sponsors benefit from increasing the number of viewers. Free streams increase viewers. The big sponsors can easily afford to pay streamers to do quality work, without charging a penny to the consumer.

I can remember when pro and amateur sports were free on television. Did the sponsors all go broke and give up on sports? No. But today, because of corporate mergers and greed, less and less is free.

And by the way, the problems in Greece are largely due to interference by other nations throughout history. Not sure what your point was with that, anyway.

 

[JCIN]

Why are there so many free streams coming from outside the US and so few from within?

Could it have anything to do with greed?

Why would low-income players pay for streams, especially of dubious quality?

Why would people unfamiliar to the game pay to watch it?


Do streamers really expect folks to pay to watch live streams when...

Matches rarely start on time.

Tuning in will likely bring up an empty table.

Announcers often ignore the match before them, talking instead about another match, their dinner, etc.

A match is playing without commentary.

Names of players are often not on the screen.

The score is not kept up to date or is non-existent.

There is little explanation of what's going on for newcomers to pool?

...jus' askin'...

Perhaps you have stumbled on a need in the market. You should fill it. Everyone knows the greedy streamers make the big bucks half assing their way along. Imagine what a man of your insight and capabilities could do.

 

[Donny Lutz]

Attacking me for my questions and comments?

Perhaps you have stumbled on a need in the market. You should fill it. Everyone knows the greedy streamers make the big bucks half assing their way along. Imagine what a man of your insight and capabilities to do.

I live on a four-figure annual income. So sorry, I'm not in a position to sponsor streams.

I didn't say streamers are greedy. I think sponsors should foot the bill.

 

[JCIN]

I live on a four-figure annual income. So sorry, I'm not in a position to sponsor streams.

I didn't say streamers are greedy. I think sponsors should foot the bill.

I didn't say you should be a sponsor.

Also if you didn't mean to call the streamers greedy what did this mean:

Why are there so many free streams coming from outside the US and so few from within?

Could it have anything to do with greed?

The streamer is the one running the PPV and getting the money. Who else could have anything to do with greed as a motive if not the streamer?

Or are you suggesting because sponsors choose not give money to a stream they are greedy? If thats the case it might occur to you that other people work on a budget as well.

 

[Donny Lutz]

Well...

I didn't say you should be a sponsor.

Also if you didn't mean to call the streamers greedy what did this mean:

???

The streamer is the one running the PPV and getting the money. Who else could have anything to do with greed as a motive if not the streamer?

Or are you suggesting because sponsors choose not give money to a stream they are greedy? If thats the case it might occur to you that other people work on a budget as well.

Yeah, big corporations are on pretty tight budgets.

In the 1950s, bowling was free every week on TV, and the sport grew very rapidly. Even newspapers covered the sport. The corporations that sponsored TV bowling profited immensely over the years from the growth of bowling.

I was there. I began promoting bowling in the late 1950s, and pool in the mid-'60s. I created and directed several bowling and pool leagues. I was fortunate enough to bowl on TV a few times, - long before PPV. I even created two TV bowling specials for local television. All for virtually no pay. I know how frustrating that can be. So I can identify with today's streamers. I never said streamers shouldn't be paid. Sponsors should pay them. That doesn't mean they should be immune to criticism. Neither should corporations.

Yes, I believe that many millionaires and billionaires (and today trillionaires) are very greedy. Streams are not million dollar operations, more like pocket change for some who profit from the sport.

 

[Goldy]

Sponsors benefit from increasing the number of viewers. Free streams increase viewers. The big sponsors can easily afford to pay streamers to do quality work, without charging a penny to the consumer.

I can remember when pro and amateur sports were free on television. Did the sponsors all go broke and give up on sports? No. But today, because of corporate mergers and greed, less and less is free.

The television model is vastly different from internet live streaming. Back in the day, you couldn't touch the TV screen and instantly view a sponsors product and make a purchase. Let alone getting someone to pick up the phone and make a purchase with a credit card.

Viewer numbers on TV are in the thousands, hundreds of thousands, to sometimes millions of IMPRESSIONS Those numbers alone is what drives the cost of advertisement on Regular TV.

On the internet what drives the cost of advertisement is CLICKS, and not so much how many viewers you have. Doesn't matter if you have 4,000 viewers, and only 1 of them click on a product--This is much of the problem.

When you can't satisfy the internet model with video obtaining clicks, most everyone will run to YouTube to sustain their impressions and obligations to the sponsors, which ultimately puts those who are creating the work in dire straights, let alone the players. Backwards I say.

The internet live streaming model, especially for billiards is ass backwards, but not intentionally. Many of us don't have the time, nor the knowledge to set up their own network, and deliver the stream to the customer. But alas, today, and in the recent 2 years, there has been a huge leap in attaining this, with lower cost than what the streaming giants, such as google, av-web, ustream, livestream, justin/twitch.tv charge for their premium services. With adjustable and transcodable servers and players, you don't need a mass collection of servers all across the country to deliver to everyone across the country. They just may have to settle for a smaller resolution. Which alas, automatically switches in today's internet.

There are a few other arguments too, that I will leave very much alone. Just research many of my posts on the subject.

But, I can say that the live billiard streaming is evolving, and for the good, not only for the producers, but for the players. Soon, there will be enough revenue privately to satisfy the sponsors and the players in our sport through the internet. Until then, I continue to work hard on the projects I've started, and they are finally coming around and being noticed.

Zach.
OSPN.

 

[garczar]

Bowling in the 60's on network t.v. was paid for by: A. Beer and B. Cigarettes.

 

[JCIN]

Yeah, big corporations are on pretty tight budgets.

In the 1950s, bowling was free every week on TV, and the sport grew very rapidly. Even newspapers covered the sport. The corporations that sponsored TV bowling profited immensely over the years from the growth of bowling.

I was there. I began promoting bowling in the late 1950s, and pool in the mid-'60s. I created and directed several bowling and pool leagues. I was fortunate enough to bowl on TV a few times, - long before PPV. I even created two TV bowling specials for local television. All for virtually no pay. I know how frustrating that can be. So I can identify with today's streamers. I never said streamers shouldn't be paid. Sponsors should pay them. That doesn't mean they should be immune to criticism. Neither should corporations.

Yes, I believe that many millionaires and billionaires (and today trillionaires) are very greedy. Streams are not million dollar operations, more like pocket change for some who profit from the sport.

From a big business standpoint pool streams reach no one in the grand scheme of things. Few hundred on a PPV and few thousand on a free stream. The people that do sponsor hopefully see some benefit but my experience is they do it as much to try and help the game as themselves.

Bottom line is outside of a small group of people pool is something you play not something you watch. If the market was here in the U.S. Barry Hearn would be here working the hell out of it.

 

[Donny Lutz]

1960s

Bowling in the 60's on network t.v. was paid for by: A. Beer and B. Cigarettes.

Yes, I was there, even on TV myself. I was there in the '40s and '50s as well.

 

[ssbn610g]

From a big business standpoint pool streams reach no one in the grand scheme of things. Few hundred on a PPV and few thousand on a free stream. The people that do sponsor hopefully see some benefit but my experience is they do it as much to try and help the game as themselves.

Bottom line is outside of a small group of people pool is something you play not something you watch. If the market was here in the U.S. Barry Hearn would be here working the hell out of it.

I think that the "Bottom line" here is right on. The sad part is if you go to your local room during non league times, the rooms are usually pretty empty also.

Al

 

[TVmike]

I am professor X and my free streams will defeat you Magneto and your brotherhood of evil mutant PPVs.

 

[StraightPoolIU]

From a big business standpoint pool streams reach no one in the grand scheme of things. Few hundred on a PPV and few thousand on a free stream. The people that do sponsor hopefully see some benefit but my experience is they do it as much to try and help the game as themselves.

Bottom line is outside of a small group of people pool is something you play not something you watch. If the market was here in the U.S. Barry Hearn would be here working the hell out of it.

Couple interesting things came to mind as I was reading this. First of all I was wondering if any stream advertising or sponsorships had directly affected any of my pool purchases. I think they have absolutely. I probably wouldn't be very aware of OB Cues if they hadn't sponsored players and streams, and I own a few OB products today.

The second was the lack of a market for watching pool in the US. Undoubtedly that's true. There is no market today. Justin knows this well because few people have spent more time in the streaming business than him. However, in the not so distant past there were men's and women's pro tours that had multiple tournaments with fairly large purses that aired regularly on basic cable. Now was it ever as big as mainstream sports or ancillary sports like golf? No, but we did get to see all the top pros going head to head every week and it was possible for them to make a nice living playing the game. In other words there was some kind of market for it than what now exists. It's sad that it has eroded.

 

[JCIN]

Couple interesting things came to mind as I was reading this. First of all I was wondering if any stream advertising or sponsorships had directly affected any of my pool purchases. I think they have absolutely. I probably wouldn't be very aware of OB Cues if they hadn't sponsored players and streams, and I own a few OB products today.

The second was the lack of a market for watching pool in the US. Undoubtedly that's true. There is no market today. Justin knows this well because few people have spent more time in the streaming business than him. However, in the not so distant past there were men's and women's pro tours that had multiple tournaments with fairly large purses that aired regularly on basic cable. Now was it ever as big as mainstream sports or ancillary sports like golf? No, but we did get to see all the top pros going head to head every week and it was possible for them to make a nice living playing the game. In other words there was some kind of market for it than what now exists. It's sad that it has eroded.

Last real mens pro tour I know of was the Camel/PBT era. That went tits up fifteen years ago. It sounds worse when you say it out loud.

 

[lost]

Pool never had a "tour" in any real sense of the word, and except for a very brief heyday (when ESPN was looking for something cheap to produce...what could be cheaper than putting cameras around a pool table) pool has never drawn a real sporting audience. I'd guess the biggest thing ESPN did...at least for men...was showing the "seniors" including Minnesota Fats, Mosconi, etc....and really that was just fluff to fill time slots for the fledgling cable network.
ESPN had women's pool on FAR more often than the men.

Couple interesting things came to mind as I was reading this. First of all I was wondering if any stream advertising or sponsorships had directly affected any of my pool purchases. I think they have absolutely. I probably wouldn't be very aware of OB Cues if they hadn't sponsored players and streams, and I own a few OB products today.

The second was the lack of a market for watching pool in the US. Undoubtedly that's true. There is no market today. Justin knows this well because few people have spent more time in the streaming business than him. However, in the not so distant past there were men's and women's pro tours that had multiple tournaments with fairly large purses that aired regularly on basic cable. Now was it ever as big as mainstream sports or ancillary sports like golf? No, but we did get to see all the top pros going head to head every week and it was possible for them to make a nice living playing the game. In other words there was some kind of market for it than what now exists. It's sad that it has eroded.

 

[StraightPoolIU]

Yeah I know about the past tours, and that the men's tour(s) haven't existed for 15 years. I was definitely not trying to imply that we could easily get back to that. So many things have changed in the world since then it's not a good comparison. I was just lamenting the fact that pool backslid as a spectator sport instead of developing.

But to be honest if you're a hardcore pool fan like me things aren't too bad. I don't mind throwing in on a ppv for a niche product. Instead of getting to only watch short race 9 ball I get to see pros play all types of games in many different set lengths. I even get to watch action matches. The only downside as a fan in the current environment is that there aren't very many tournaments that draw all of the world's best players. It's more regional in nature so we miss out on big names playing head to head. Also the lack of available prize funds means the level of play is likely held back somewhat due to motivations, opportunity costs, etc. I will continue to support streams, both free and ppv, that show me content I want to see. I encourage everyone else to do the same.

 

[Fast Lenny]

I think we have plenty of free streams in the US, sometimes multiples on certain weekends. Lots of guys doing their part to support the game. I am sure it has helped the game grow in ways also either getting new people to play and obtain knowledge from viewing or giving people who already play the itch to go out and hit some. I believe sponsorship is good for everyone with many more people watching then a PPV stream so they see more benefit. Sponsors are not really there and some see the value of it and others dismiss it but still advertising in mags that are never read or never delivered.

I have been using Ustream since I started in 08 and probably have been streaming pool for free to viewers longer then anyone but its certainly not free for me to do it. I do think getting all the free streamers on a set network maybe even through AZ Billiards would be a great way to go and maybe splitting the ad money made from that. I am sure Ustream has made thousands in ad revenue from me streaming, I know they are providing a platform so I am not butt hurt about it but I think there is a better way that puts a few bucks in the streamers pockets.

I see many different streams, many free, some do subscription and others PPV. I think certain events make more sense for PPV like the one pocket money matches because of the dedicated hardcore guys who will shell the money out. I enjoyed lots of the TAR matches, you see some doing similar PPV challenge match/money match streams now but I am sure they aren't getting rich and its a tough gig. We all have a place in the industry but it would be great if we got the pool stream centralized with our own servers and ad revenue which could be split fairly. YouTube give a kickback for the clicks but Ustream gives nothing.

 

[TVmike]

...

Lol you are welcome to have a channel on TvMike.tv anytime Fast Lenny.What you have been talking about I've been doing for years in one shape or another already.