Fireworks at the US Open
- Thread starter azhousepro
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OPC, it is you who is having trouble understanding, the reason Earl is in the minority on this is because 99% of all pro pool players need this type of garbage to compete. They simply cannot compete with thier skills alone... they need a trick gimmick or gag. And the fact that you can play one pocket with a jump cue has absolutly nothing to do with what we are talking about.onepocketchump said:
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onepocketchump
Guest
EL'nino said:
You mean garbage like "finger extensions" and special "sports glasses"? Or do you mean garbage like the temperature and humidity level must be "just so"? Or how about the garbage like the opponent must not have played on the same table anytime in their life before their match with Earl? Or how about the garbage that it is okay if Earl plays on the same table for all of his matches? Do you mean that 99% of all pro pool players cannot play without the garbage of demeaning their opponents while the match is in progress? Yes, I agree, it is sad that 99% of pro players can play a finals without walking out because they don't like the rack.
The fact that you don't understand that I think I would whip your ass on the pool table in ANY GAME using JUST the jump cue has everything to do with what we are talking about. Why? Because the "jump" cue is a piece of wood with a tip and a ferrule on it that when chalked allows the cueball to be struck with sidespin. Thus I am confident that, if my skills at pool are superior to yours, (which given your display of ignorance thus far leads me to believe), then I can easily dispatch you in any game using the jump cue. Which proves that it is NO different than any other cue EXCEPT that it is better for jumping balls than most other cues.
The reason that Earl is in the minority, the incredibly small minority, is that he refuses to acknowledge that there are possibly other ways to do things besides the way he does them. He refuses to understand that rules change, equipment changes and people change. Another reason is that he is a flaming hypocrite, which I see you sidestepped twice now, and the other pros know it. As referenced above, he doesn't mind playing on tables more than once if he is the one who does it, he doesn't mind using special equipment as long as he is the one who does it. So, Nino, you are well within your right to join Earl's minority if you want to. Just don't think that you will be able to voice those outdated opinions without getting a challenge here.
BTW - If you can play like Earl then you can overcome the type of personality quirks that he labors under.
) In which case I DON'T want to play you.Ciao,
John
Well the fact that I'm so ignorant and you would dispatch me & whip my ass, tell me that you are a far superior pool player than I could ever hope to be. But maybe you could learn to have a civil disscussion without the little tantrum next time.onepocketchump said:You mean garbage like "finger extensions" and special "sports glasses"? Or do you mean garbage like the temperature and humidity level must be "just so"? Or how about the garbage like the opponent must not have played on the same table anytime in their life before their match with Earl? Or how about the garbage that it is okay if Earl plays on the same table for all of his matches? Do you mean that 99% of all pro pool players cannot play without the garbage of demeaning their opponents while the match is in progress? Yes, I agree, it is sad that 99% of pro players can play a finals without walking out because they don't like the rack.
The fact that you don't understand that I think I would whip your ass on the pool table in ANY GAME using JUST the jump cue has everything to do with what we are talking about. Why? Because the "jump" cue is a piece of wood with a tip and a ferrule on it that when chalked allows the cueball to be struck with sidespin. Thus I am confident that, if my skills at pool are superior to yours, (which given your display of ignorance thus far leads me to believe), then I can easily dispatch you in any game using the jump cue. Which proves that it is NO different than any other cue EXCEPT that it is better for jumping balls than most other cues.
The reason that Earl is in the minority, the incredibly small minority, is that he refuses to acknowledge that there are possibly other ways to do things besides the way he does them. He refuses to understand that rules change, equipment changes and people change. Another reason is that he is a flaming hypocrite, which I see you sidestepped twice now, and the other pros know it. As referenced above, he doesn't mind playing on tables more than once if he is the one who does it, he doesn't mind using special equipment as long as he is the one who does it. So, Nino, you are well within your right to join Earl's minority if you want to. Just don't think that you will be able to voice those outdated opinions without getting a challenge here.
BTW - If you can play like Earl then you can overcome the type of personality quirks that he labors under.
Ciao,
John
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onepocketchump
Guest
EL'nino said:
You think that was a tantrum? You haven't the least clue about a civil discussion? Why not go back to the beginning of your "contribution" to this thread where you called tournament directors "jackasses" for allowing jump cues, wronte wonderful pieces of prose like the following, "his opponant(sp) with virtually no skill at all takes out a $50 peice of s#*t jump cue", and super eloquent statements like this, "If tournaments were run correctly where skill and ability prevailed over jump sticks guys like Efren & Earl would win practically everything.", finished off with this gem of advice to us all, "You should all be greatfull to live at the same time as these two GREATS because the world will probably never see talent this strong again."
Never mind the fact that you manage to disparage the accomplishments of all other Pros besides Earl and Efren, besides Earl mostly, and that you put down all the tournaments and tours that disagree with you and Earl, but the most interesting part of your diatribe is that you conveniently forget that Earl and Efren HAVE won just about everything there is to win DESPITE the use of jump cues, and that they very often DO NOT WIN in tournaments that ban the use of jump cues, both facts which completely disprove your theory.
So, again, I suggest you brush up on your facts before you attempt to discuss this or any other topic. You may want to do a little research on civil discourse as well. I invite you to see my reply to your first post in this thread, the one about jump cues, and attempt to find ANY statement in that reply which could be seen as a personal attack on you. PLEASE. Find just ONE part of that reply which was not respectful and civil. Then go to the rest of the thread and check your repsonses to me and others and see why I began to make it personal and will continue to do so as long as you do.
It's your shot - as Buddy used to say, "run out junior".
John
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onepocketchump
Guest
EL'nino said:
Agreed. Every tournament everywhere should be played with a 19oz Valley House Cue, with a Phenolic Tip and one brand of chalk. Before every shot the chalk must be wiped away from the tip and the referee must apply one swipe of chalk only to the tip. The Phenolic tip insures that no player has any knid of advantage over another player due to the "hard- or softness" of the tip. Players must wear the exact same clothing. There will be mandatory drug tests to insure that no player is doped up. No special glasses, finger dohickeys, or anything but the Valley Bar Cue is to be used. And only one type of table is to be used with exactly the same specs every time.
Let skill shine through since all these people are obviously only winning through their use of gimmicks.
You know what, forget the chalk, let's see the skills come out when the players are unaided by the application of a gimmick substance to increase the friction between the tip and the ball. That is a huge gimmick, especially since some players could become more adept at applying it to the cue than others.
Does this sound like the ideal world for you El Nino? Would Efren and Earl win everything under these circumstances? Wouldn't this be a "pure" test of skill.
John
About situational cues- I played Ismael "Morro" Paez in a Pechauer tournament a few weeks ago, and I swear the guy changed shafts during the match at LEAST 5 times. He ended up beating me 9-5, but I just couldn't understand what the hell he was doing. I watched him the most of the tournament and he was doing that when he played everyone.
Hey Wally, those "Intimidator" shafts are hilarious. I'm sure Morro would have a field day if he bought those.
You know what I just don't understand about all these new gimmick shafts is that they advertise them like they will really improve someone's game. That is such bullcrap. A person with a perfectly balanced stance, a dead straight stroke and perfect muscle memory can pick up a $100 cuestick and play just as good as a clone of that person with an x-shaft or predator shaft. People think that when they miss a long draw shot it's because of deflection, but it's not. It's their mechanics. The slightest wiggle to the side will screw you up. 99% of the players who have crooked strokes don't even realize it, because it's hard to tell when you have both eyes open. Close your dominant eye and put your non-dominant eye over the shaft, take some practice strokes and follow all the way thru. You will noticed all of the minor defects in your stroke, if you have any.
While I do understand that if you have good mechanics ALREADY, a predator shaft can slightly enhance your ability, but the point of this post is that those gimmick shafts do not FIX a bad stroke.
Hey Wally, those "Intimidator" shafts are hilarious. I'm sure Morro would have a field day if he bought those.
You know what I just don't understand about all these new gimmick shafts is that they advertise them like they will really improve someone's game. That is such bullcrap. A person with a perfectly balanced stance, a dead straight stroke and perfect muscle memory can pick up a $100 cuestick and play just as good as a clone of that person with an x-shaft or predator shaft. People think that when they miss a long draw shot it's because of deflection, but it's not. It's their mechanics. The slightest wiggle to the side will screw you up. 99% of the players who have crooked strokes don't even realize it, because it's hard to tell when you have both eyes open. Close your dominant eye and put your non-dominant eye over the shaft, take some practice strokes and follow all the way thru. You will noticed all of the minor defects in your stroke, if you have any.
While I do understand that if you have good mechanics ALREADY, a predator shaft can slightly enhance your ability, but the point of this post is that those gimmick shafts do not FIX a bad stroke.
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onepocketchump
Guest
LastTwo said:
And this is exactly my point about jump cues. I have always said, and make it a part of my presentation that they are not magic wands, that they are not going to fix a deficiency in your game, not going to make up for poor technique. I have always warned buyers that IF they were buying the jump cue for any of those reasons then it would probably hurt their game more than help it.
I do however disagree slightly about the idea that one can perform the same with different cues by virtue of good mechanics. Of course a Mike Massey will be able to do more with any cue than I will but even Massey knows that particular cue constructions are more or less suited for certain areas of the game. In my own experience, I once owned an Italian billiards (carom) cue, which had a large wood screw in the shaft. With this cue I could do some really nice masse' shots and double the rail about eight times going up the long rail. I could try as much as I wanted to with my pool cues and I could barely and rarely duplicate the shots that came so easily with the Italian cue.
I am not in favor of changing shafts for every shot ina pool match. Somewhere there has to be balance. I don't see a problem with grabbing another cue for an extreme masse' shot or a jump shot. I do see a problem with one cue for draw, one for follow and so on. I guess this is the never-ending struggle because people will natuarally seek to make things that they think will improve our lives somehow. Most things don't but we are sure glad for the things that do.
None of us pool players are unhappy about having leather tips, chalk, fast cloth, level tables, consistent rail rubber, consistent balls and so on..... I think that as water finds it's level so does the marketplace for ideas. Things that truly have a universal appeal and usefulness are adopted and things that don't generally fade away into obscurity. If you take a trip through the last hundred years of billiard patent applications then you will see a plethora of gadgets meant to revolutionize pool. Some of these will be slightly familiar as they have been resurrected or rediscovered in the last ten years. Most of them will be obscure and quaint. The point being that all of us are seeking a panacea on some level. Efren Reyes doesn't trust his fortune to house cues, he seeks and finds the cue he feels most comfortable with, Earl Strickland doesn't trust his game to an off-the-wall Cuetec, he has it modified to his personal preferences that he feels comfortable with. And that is where the balance comes in, each of us must find our level of comfort using whatever devices are legal to use as long as they don't adversely infringe on others. I personally welcome the ongoing spate of innovation because no one knows what is going to be discovered next that may be truly useful to all.
I put today's jump cues on a slightly lower level than chalk and tips for their ability to impact the game universally (under the current rules). Because today's jump cues are all nearly indentical in performance the playing field is equal and the same shots are available to everyone. The only limitation is skill which is how it should be.
John Barton
Multiple cues not allowed ?
A silly question on the above. I didn't know that you were _not_ allowed to use several cues in a game. I take it there is some rule prohibiting multiple cues, but allowing break and jump cues ? Could someone point out or quote this rule for me ? I've read several versions of the rules and cannot recall anything to this affect, but then my recollection seems to be fading with my advancing years
Thanks
Dave
sjm said:
A silly question on the above. I didn't know that you were _not_ allowed to use several cues in a game. I take it there is some rule prohibiting multiple cues, but allowing break and jump cues ? Could someone point out or quote this rule for me ? I've read several versions of the rules and cannot recall anything to this affect, but then my recollection seems to be fading with my advancing years
Thanks
Dave
Per the BCA Rules, Player may bring a maximum of 3 cue sticks to a match.
* Width of tip: no minimum / 14 mm maximum
* Weight: no minimum / 25 oz. maximum
* Length: 40 inches minimum / no maximum
The WPA Rules do NOT specify the number of cues but the other items are specified.
Having said that, any tournament can limit or prohibit jump cues at their discretion. For example, the Sands-Reno Open now prohibits Jump Cues.
Troy
* Width of tip: no minimum / 14 mm maximum
* Weight: no minimum / 25 oz. maximum
* Length: 40 inches minimum / no maximum
The WPA Rules do NOT specify the number of cues but the other items are specified.
Having said that, any tournament can limit or prohibit jump cues at their discretion. For example, the Sands-Reno Open now prohibits Jump Cues.
Troy
DaveK said:A silly question on the above. I didn't know that you were _not_ allowed to use several cues in a game. I take it there is some rule prohibiting multiple cues, but allowing break and jump cues ? Could someone point out or quote this rule for me ? I've read several versions of the rules and cannot recall anything to this affect, but then my recollection seems to be fading with my advancing years
Thanks
Dave
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onepocketchump
Guest
Troy said:
And when was the last time Earl or Efren won that one?
)John
If there were no dunks in basketball, would it be as exciting? If there were no three-point line, would you still watch? Does the shotclock make a difference in basketball? Is the way basketball played today an improvement to the way it was played years ago? or is it the other way around?
I think innovation, in anything, is a good thing. There may be some bad experiments, but eventually the good ones stay. If jump cues were a bad thing, it would die a natural death. Efren deciding to add the jumpshot to his already awesome arsenal says that they're here to stay. That's the difference between Earl and Efren: Efren goes with the flow while Earl is just to damn proud to do as everyone does. Efren is not afraid to learn new stuff. After having lost a couple of tournaments due to his opponent's use of the jump cue, he decided that he really has to use it more often.
I think Earl would want to use a jump cue but since he's railed against it so much in the past, he'd look like a fool if he started now. Which is probably why he compensates with his other gimmicks -- the shades, the finger extensions, etc. Pride is preventing him from taking Efren's approach. He'd rather resort to sharking his opponents with his snide comments and off-humor and ill-timed rantings to throw them off their momentum.
They must be a level playing field: if the tournament allows for jump cues, then by all means, use them. It's your own damn fault if you rather not employ them but you can't deride other players for using that option. I'm sure if the tournament organizers decide to ban jump cues, people would still play. All the tournaments have different rules. People just have to comply. When Efren nearly lost in the Challenge of Champions to Mika Immonen because he forgot to call the nine ball twice, he didn't complain that it was a stupid rule. He just chose to remember the rule on his next shots. the tournament organizers are the ones putting the money in, after all. In effect, they're his bread and butter. They're entitled to their whims and caprices. Like gladiators in ancient rome, pool players play for the entertainment of their audience and their benefactors. I think Earl is forgetting not to bite the hand that feeds him.
I think innovation, in anything, is a good thing. There may be some bad experiments, but eventually the good ones stay. If jump cues were a bad thing, it would die a natural death. Efren deciding to add the jumpshot to his already awesome arsenal says that they're here to stay. That's the difference between Earl and Efren: Efren goes with the flow while Earl is just to damn proud to do as everyone does. Efren is not afraid to learn new stuff. After having lost a couple of tournaments due to his opponent's use of the jump cue, he decided that he really has to use it more often.
I think Earl would want to use a jump cue but since he's railed against it so much in the past, he'd look like a fool if he started now. Which is probably why he compensates with his other gimmicks -- the shades, the finger extensions, etc. Pride is preventing him from taking Efren's approach. He'd rather resort to sharking his opponents with his snide comments and off-humor and ill-timed rantings to throw them off their momentum.
They must be a level playing field: if the tournament allows for jump cues, then by all means, use them. It's your own damn fault if you rather not employ them but you can't deride other players for using that option. I'm sure if the tournament organizers decide to ban jump cues, people would still play. All the tournaments have different rules. People just have to comply. When Efren nearly lost in the Challenge of Champions to Mika Immonen because he forgot to call the nine ball twice, he didn't complain that it was a stupid rule. He just chose to remember the rule on his next shots. the tournament organizers are the ones putting the money in, after all. In effect, they're his bread and butter. They're entitled to their whims and caprices. Like gladiators in ancient rome, pool players play for the entertainment of their audience and their benefactors. I think Earl is forgetting not to bite the hand that feeds him.
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onepocketchump
Guest
DoomCue said:
Doom, you are being unfair. First of all I did not bring up the jump cues in this thread, El Nino did. Secondly, if you read through the thread you will notice that I have kept it on topic as relates to Earl and the course of the discussion.
Discussions on the internet often take twists that bring it away from the original impetus. That is life.
I believe you owe me an apology, as the record does NOT show that "any discussion with John participating becomes a soapbox for him to espouse the "virtues" of the jump cue." In fact, I will go further and predict that you cannot find even one thread on AZ Billiards where I ever brought up the topic of jump cues before someone else did. I am currently subscribed to about five threads and this is the only one where jump cues are being discussed. You obviously are on the anti-jump cue side of the argument as evidenced by your use of quotation marks around "virtues". My question to you is if you really feel that your post contributes in any signifigant way to any of the things being discussed in this thread? Was the purpose only to wrongly accuse me without a shred of proof?
Just wondering. Ad hominem attack and red herring rhetoric don't sit well with me.
John
onepocketchump said:And when was the last time Earl or Efren won that one?
John
A better question is: when was the last time either has played in the Sands Reno tournament? The US 9-ball Open every year takes a vote of the players to see if they want or do not want jump cues allowed and if I am correct, the last few years, the jump cue was voted out of the tournament.
onepocketchump said:
I don't recall, in my two sentence post, saying that you brought up jump cues. However, since you brought that up, I will say that as soon as someone does mention jump cues, you're sure to be all in.
onepocketchump said:
I don't owe you jack, and you ain't getting jack. You read far too much from a two sentence post. Lighten up and stop being so defensive.
onepocketchump said:
John, since you're "just wondering," I'll respond with some answers. You have a definite agenda when it comes to jump cues. Whenever someone brings up jump cues, you'll chime in about the "excellence" of the Bunjee jumper (and even in threads which have nothing to do with jumpers - see the thread about chalk for proof). And God forbid if someone says something bad about Instroke. The point of my post wasn't an attack, it was an observation about how this thread has been hijacked. If you got more than that out of two sentences, be careful, the CIA has bugged your phones and Palestine thinks you're the root of all the problems in the Middle East.
Now, let me try again. Anybody know if Earl actually apologized to Sally? Apparently he has apologized to JR, but what about her?
-djb
Troy said:
Thanks Troy. So it's a BCA rule. Is it in the 'Unified' rules ? Or the BCA League rules ? I can recall the equipment specs in the equipment section of the Unified rules, but not the 3 cue rule.
My regular hall has a big sign on the wall as you enter, and one of the rules is:
NO JUMPING BALLS
Other house rules that are broken regularly include :
NO GAMBLING
NO SWEARING
NO MASSE SHOTS
Thanks again Troy, and sorry to all for contributing to the thread drift ...
Dave
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onepocketchump
Guest
JustPlay said:
I don't know when the last time either of them played in Reno. I was just being faecitious anyway
The last two years of the US Open have seen jump cues being used. In fact last year's matches featured a visibly upset Strickland being TORTURED by Fabio Petroni's awesome jump shots using the Bunjee Jumper.
John
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onepocketchump
Guest
DoomCue said:I don't recall, in my two sentence post, saying that you brought up jump cues. However, since you brought that up, I will say that as soon as someone does mention jump cues, you're sure to be all in.
That's right, in your two sentences you stated that EVERY thread I am in becomes a soapbox for my stand on jump cue. Which is wrong. As for being "all in" so what? If I have the cards, i.e. the knowledge and experience then why shouldn't I be all in. That's the nature of debate.
I don't owe you jack, and you ain't getting jack. You read far too much from a two sentence post. Lighten up and stop being so defensive.
Defensive? Why would I be defensive when you attack me? Maybe you should lighten up and consider what you post before you hit the send button.
John, since you're "just wondering," I'll respond with some answers. You have a definite agenda when it comes to jump cues. Whenever someone brings up jump cues, you'll chime in about the "excellence" of the Bunjee jumper (and even in threads which have nothing to do with jumpers - see the thread about chalk for proof). And God forbid if someone says something bad about Instroke. The point of my post wasn't an attack, it was an observation about how this thread has been hijacked. If you got more than that out of two sentences, be careful, the CIA has bugged your phones and Palestine thinks you're the root of all the problems in the Middle East.
You are right. I have an agenda. The reason I am so pro-jump cue is because I sell them. Part of my livelihood depends on jump cues being accepted. Now, having said that I am still waiting for anyone to prove that anything I have said about jump cues, their use and the skill required to use them correctly is false. Why should I let a false statement stand if I have the proof that it is false? Regardless of my affiliation, wouldn't you want to have the right information instead of the wrong information?
As to the "chalk" thread, I don't follow you. The only chalk thread I am involved in is one about the old masters vs. new masters. This is the content of the ONE post I made;
"There is NO difference in the pre-flag chalk to the flag chalk. The reason that they started putting a flag on the chalk was to identify it as genuine Master Chalk as opposed to the counterfeit Master Chalk that was being produced and distributed throughout Asia. At one time my company was the largest purchaser of Master Chalk for export to Taiwan. We requested a change in the packaging to distinguish the genuine stuff we bought from Tweeten's from the counterfeit stuff being sold there. Thus we were able to establish ourselves as THE SOURCE for genuine Master Chalk and did a pretty good business for a while. For your information, a 20 foot container holds 6500 gross of chalk. That is 936,000 pieces of chalk.
I find nothng in there about jump cues. Maybe you could actually PROVIDE your proof instead of making empty allegations. Talk about hijacking a thread.
Now, let me try again. Anybody know if Earl actually apologized to Sally? Apparently he has apologized to JR, but what about her?
And you couldn't have asked this WITHOUT the attack on me? As a matter of fact, in your "two sentence post" you didn't even ask this question, you said this, "Funny how any discussion with John participating becomes a soapbox for him to espouse the "virtues" of the jump cue. How do jump cues pertain to Sally, JR, and Earl?" Not only did I answer your incorrect assertion I also answered the question you DID ask.
Have a GREAT day!
John Barton
See above for my reply.
onepocketchump said:I don't know when the last time either of them played in Reno. I was just being faecitious anyway
The last two years of the US Open have seen jump cues being used. In fact last year's matches featured a visibly upset Strickland being TORTURED by Fabio Petroni's awesome jump shots using the Bunjee Jumper.
John
You are correct, Fabio did tortured Strickland with the jump cue. It must have been in 2002 they voted it out. The sands reno event seems to have lost alot of top players over the last few years.....