Flippers

K

KJ Cues

Pro Cue Builder & Repair
Silver Member
The subject of 'flippers' has been mentioned several times in recent threads and rather than hi-jack one of those threads to explore the topic, I'm starting this thread. Your opinions and input are welcome.

I personally have nothing negative to say about them (flippers for lack of a better word). I feel that they actually provide a service to the cue builder and if they happen to make a profit in the process of turning a cue, good for them. We all need to make a buck. They provide a service in that they help get the cue to the market-place. They are betting the cost of the cue that they can move it for you and in the process, God willing, they'll be rewarded for their efforts and risk taking. I think it would be a mistake to believe that they always make a profit. Yet they have put their money at risk. They are actually complementing the builder that they are buying the cue from by showing faith in the builder's work & abilities. How is this wrong?

Anyone who builds a cue has an idea of what they have to have for that cue for them to be adequately compensated for their efforts & matrls. Once the deal is done, the time for crying & whining has past. You agreed to what you felt was a fair price for your work and if the flipper makes a buck for taking a risk with you, then so be it. He apparently has a market that you don't and now you want to belittle him for that? Get over it. It's a learning experience and the flipper has just helped you whether you yet realize it or not.

I have a couple of buyers that occasionally come by my shop just to see what I've got 'in the works'. If they see something they like then we talk. More often than not, the cue is sold before it's even finished. 'Flippers'.....I'd like to see more of them.

I apologize if someone feels that this isn't the appropriate forum for this thread but it's cuemakers that apparently have the most problem with the practice.
 
If they can push em and get your name out there I say go for it. It helps the cm and the "flipper" Now when you get people who want a discount and you already are where you need to be on that cue That is another arguement in itself.
 
Well said. They're like your outsourced marketing department, allowing you to focus on building rather than sales. If you have the time and the inclination to do the sales yourself, then don't give them a discount and they'll become disinterested in your cues because they won't have enough room to guarantee a profit. The choice is yours.

KJ, I would like the "flipper discount" on your next masterpiece. :grin:

Mr H
 
KJ Cues said:
The subject of 'flippers' has been mentioned several times in recent threads and rather than hi-jack one of those threads to explore the topic, I'm starting this thread. Your opinions and input are welcome.

I personally have nothing negative to say about them (flippers for lack of a better word). I feel that they actually provide a service to the cue builder and if they happen to make a profit in the process of turning a cue, good for them. We all need to make a buck. They provide a service in that they help get the cue to the market-place. They are betting the cost of the cue that they can move it for you and in the process, God willing, they'll be rewarded for their efforts and risk taking. I think it would be a mistake to believe that they always make a profit. Yet they have put their money at risk. They are actually complementing the builder that they are buying the cue from by showing faith in the builder's work & abilities. How is this wrong?

Anyone who builds a cue has an idea of what they have to have for that cue for them to be adequately compensated for their efforts & matrls. Once the deal is done, the time for crying & whining has past. You agreed to what you felt was a fair price for your work and if the flipper makes a buck for taking a risk with you, then so be it. He apparently has a market that you don't and now you want to belittle him for that? Get over it. It's a learning experience and the flipper has just helped you whether you yet realize it or not.

I have a couple of buyers that occasionally come by my shop just to see what I've got 'in the works'. If they see something they like then we talk. More often than not, the cue is sold before it's even finished. 'Flippers'.....I'd like to see more of them.

I apologize if someone feels that this isn't the appropriate forum for this thread but it's cuemakers that apparently have the most problem with the practice.
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THE PEOPLE YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT ARE DEALERS, NOT FLIPPERS.

CUE DEALERS ARE A VERY VERY VERY IMPORTANT PART OF THE CUE MARKET. WHO DO YOU THINK BUILDS THE BUZZ ABOUT CUEMAKERS?

IT'S CERTAINLY NOT THE CUEMAKERS THEMSELVES. MOST DON'T EVEN WANT TO TAKE A PHONE CALL, OR ANSWER AN E-MAIL.

FLIPPERS, BUY USED CUES TO FLIP QUICKLY TO MAKE A FEW BUCKS. IT'S A DIFFERENT SITUATION THAN WHAT YOU POSTED ABOUT.

CUEMAKERS USUALLY ONLY HAVE AN ISSUE WITH "FLIPPERS" WHEN THEY SEE A CUE SELL FOR LESS THAN THEY THINK IT SHOULD. BUT IF A "FLIPPER", HITS A BIG SCORE ON A CUE, THE SAME CUEMAKERS THAN HAVE NO PROBLEM WITH THE SAME "FLIPPER".

P.S. IMO......IF IT'S NOT YOUR MONEY BEING INVESTED, YOU CAN'T WORRY ABOUT IT.
 
flippers

I think there is a big difference between a flipper and a dealer. All of my dealers sell at my retail price and have a large investment in all there cues. To me a flipper is the guy ho buy cue at low prices from busted pool players at a low price then sells them somewhere else. Ether way as a cue maker once you take the money that's it for you can't say much about what someone sells it for later.
 
Dealers are good for business if you can afford to give them a big enough price break for them to make something off of your cue. Very few got to be real popular without dealers pushing their cues. A good example is that the late John Wright basically put several cuemakers on the map by getting exclusive dealer rights for a while and building up their name for them. Now flippers used to drive the dealers crazy. A example was and is when a dealer pays for a booth at a tournament and is selling production cues there and a flipper comes in and spreads the word around he has a trunk full of them at 60% or 70% of retail price. I have seen room owners throw them out and bar them for life. This is why some cue manufacturers have started only selling to those with a store front or business license.
 
Flippers have a place in our business

Eventually a maker will raise his prices and get the higher price if he sees these flippers finding a market for our work. If we look at the profit another may make as money coming out of our pockets then yeah it will hurt. But if we sold the cue for what we felt was a fair price then why begrudge someone recognizing that our work has higher value? Like someone said earlier, it is a sincere compliment when someone sees our work as being worth more than we do. And maybe it will wake us up to a new reality and fresh markets.
 
olsonsview said:
Eventually a maker will raise his prices and get the higher price if he sees these flippers finding a market for our work. If we look at the profit another may make as money coming out of our pockets then yeah it will hurt. But if we sold the cue for what we felt was a fair price then why begrudge someone recognizing that our work has higher value? Like someone said earlier, it is a sincere compliment when someone sees our work as being worth more than we do. And maybe it will wake us up to a new reality and fresh markets.
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WHY SHOULD THE MAKER RAISE THE PRICE? IF THEY HAVE TO DO NO LEG WORK TO SELL THE CUES, AND THEY ARE GUARANTEED THAT THE DEALERS WILL BUY THE CUES. THE DEALERS ARE TAKING RISK, AND DESERVE TO MAKE MONEY FOR TAKING THAT RISK.

HERE'S A QUESTION...... IF A DEALER BUYS A CUE, AND CAN'T SELL IT OVER A LONG PERIOD OF TIME. SHOULD/WOULD THE CUEMAKER HAVE TO TAKE IT BACK?
 
cueman said:
Dealers are good for business if you can afford to give them a big enough price break for them to make something off of your cue. Very few got to be real popular without dealers pushing their cues. A good example is that the late John Wright basically put several cuemakers on the map by getting exclusive dealer rights for a while and building up their name for them. Now flippers used to drive the dealers crazy. A example was and is when a dealer pays for a booth at a tournament and is selling production cues there and a flipper comes in and spreads the word around he has a trunk full of them at 60% or 70% of retail price. I have seen room owners throw them out and bar them for life. This is why some cue manufacturers have started only selling to those with a store front or business license.
Click to expand...


IN MY OPINION, TO BE A CUE DEALER, CUSTOM OR PRODUCTION, THE DEALER SHOULD HAVE TO OWN A BRICK AND MORTER, STORE FRONT/POOL HALL
 
olsonsview said:
Eventually a maker will raise his prices and get the higher price if he sees these flippers finding a market for our work. If we look at the profit another may make as money coming out of our pockets then yeah it will hurt. But if we sold the cue for what we felt was a fair price then why begrudge someone recognizing that our work has higher value? Like someone said earlier, it is a sincere compliment when someone sees our work as being worth more than we do. And maybe it will wake us up to a new reality and fresh markets.
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I agree.
When someone's cues get hot, it becomes too tempting for people to flip their valued cues. I mean, how many cues gain value?
If the maker keeps seeing his cues getting flipped for a profit, he'd be dumb not to raise his price.
If he raises his price and the phone is still ringing for orders, that means he's not overpicing his cues yet.
The more money he makes off his cues, the more money he has to reinvest in his shop or woods. Not to mention, a higher quality of life.
If a maker wants to discount his cues by 25-50% and sell them to dealers, that's fine too.
 
Dealers are good for business if you can afford to give them a big enough price break for them to make something off of your cue.
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i agree,but there are a few cues that have suffered from this practice.i can think of a few cuemakers who offer 25-50% off to dealers or wholesale stores and i think it has hurt the value of their cues.i think the price break needs to be somewhat low or the dealers/wholesalers are actually the only source for the public to get a cue.

in other words being a cuemaker you don't want to sell a cue for $2000 to customer A then Customer B who has a cousin who's freind can get cues wholesale from store J and he pays $1000.then when customer A says,"wow you have the same cue i do did you pay $2000 from the cuemaker",customer B starts laughing at customer A and says,"no i paid $1000 at store J,man you're a sucker".then customer A will have a very bad taste in his mouth that will be very hard to remove.everytime he hears the name of the cuemaker he will be sick and most likely will never buy another one.
 
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masonh said:
i agree,but there are a few cues that have suffered from this practice.i can think of a few cuemakers who offer 25-50% off to dealers or wholesale stores and i think it has hurt the value of their cues.i think the price break needs to be somewhat low or the dealers/wholesalers are actually the only source for the public to get a cue.

in other words being a cuemaker you don't want to sell a cue for $2000 to customer A then Customer B who has a cousin who's freind can get cues wholesale from store J and he pays $1000.then when customer A says,"wow you have the same cue i do did you pay $2000 from the cuemaker",customer B starts laughing at customer A and says,"no i paid $1000 at store J,man you're a sucker".then customer A will have a very bad taste in his mouth that will be very hard to remove.everytime he hears the name of the cuemaker he will be sick and most likely will never buy another one.
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THAT'S WHY CUEMAKERS NEED TO BE MORE PICKY ABOUT THEIR DEALERS.... IT'S NOT JUST ABOUT WHO HAS THE MONEY. DEALERS NEED TO HAVE MORALS AS WELL.

I FEEL THAT DEALERS THAT SELL BELOW RETAIL PRICING, OR AN AGREED UPON DISCOUNT SHOULD GET CUT OFF FROM THE MAKERS.
 
masonh said:
i agree,but there are a few cues that have suffered from this practice.i can think of a few cuemakers who offer 25-50% off to dealers or wholesale stores and i think it has hurt the value of their cues.i think the price break needs to be somewhat low or the dealers/wholesalers are actually the only source for the public to get a cue.

in other words being a cuemaker you don't want to sell a cue for $2000 to customer A then Customer B who has a cousin who's freind can get cues wholesale from store J and he pays $1000.then when customer A says,"wow you have the same cue i do did you pay $2000 from the cuemaker",customer B starts laughing at customer A and says,"no i paid $1000 at store J,man you're a sucker".then customer A will have a very bad taste in his mouth that will be very hard to remove.everytime he hears the name of the cuemaker he will be sick and most likely will never buy another one.
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That is whacked.
 
FAST_N_LOOSE said:
THAT'S WHY CUEMAKERS NEED TO BE MORE PICKY ABOUT THEIR DEALERS.... IT'S NOT JUST ABOUT WHO HAS THE MONEY. DEALERS NEED TO HAVE MORALS AS WELL.

I FEEL THAT DEALERS THAT SELL BELOW RETAIL PRICING, OR AN AGREED UPON DISCOUNT SHOULD GET CUT OFF FROM THE MAKERS.
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This is true, a few bad dealers can bottom the market out. I use to deal in production cues as a side thing. I sold to league players and on Ebay ocasionally. As a dealer some places make You aggree to say a maximum 20% advertised discount. It makes It hard though when everyone is competing on ebay, and selling on volume, By setting their pricing just over wholesale. It de-values the product when people know they can buy the same thing much cheaper on ebay. It's especially bad for the dealers that have a physical storefront that They need to pay utilities on each month, but It can be the same for the maker, hurts the value of the product, and That's not good for either party..

When it comes to custom cues, although not always the case. Things can be alot different, I don't see a problem with a dealer making theirs, providing the maker has figured out what he needs to make, and has agreed on a price. I would think hard before entering into any long term contract though, for the simple reason that the maker may decide to raise his own pricing to keep up with the times. Like KJ mentioned though, the crying should be all over by then. If they set the price higher, then that's alot better Then undercutting pricing, and may even raise the value of that makers work, as opposed to to lowering the general value of Their cues.

Any good bussiness relationship should be built on trust though, so both the dealer and maker should abide By whatever aggreement they have. The dealer should not under value any cue they got directly from the maker, and should abide By any minimum retail price.

I think what really sets some off the most, is people that may not even be a dealer, but more of a flipper or wantabee dealer. Some people poor mouth to death, give the whole shabang about how they really want a cue for their own, only to have the intention of selling that cue at a profit. That to Me is dishonest, and totally uncceptable.

I aggree though both sides need to have morals, and be straight with each other from the get go. I would say the same thing, choose your dealers carefully.

Greg
 
Cue Crazy said:
This is true, a few bad dealers can bottom the market out. I use to deal in production cues as a side thing. I sold to league players and on Ebay ocasionally. As a dealer some places make You aggree to say a maximum 20% advertised discount. It makes It hard though when everyone is competing on ebay, and selling on volume, By setting their pricing just over wholesale. It de-values the product when people know they can buy the same thing much cheaper on ebay. It's especially bad for the dealers that have a physical storefront that They need to pay utilities on each month, but It can be the same for the maker, hurts the value of the product, and That's not good for either party..

When it comes to custom cues, although not always the case. Things can be alot different, I don't see a problem with a dealer making theirs, providing the maker has figured out what he needs to make, and has agreed on a price. I would think hard before entering into any long term contract though, for the simple reason that the maker may decide to raise his own pricing to keep up with the times. Like KJ mentioned though, the crying should be all over by then. If they set the price higher, then that's alot better Then undercutting pricing, and may even raise the value of that makers work, as opposed to to lowering the general value of Their cues.

Any good bussiness relationship should be built on trust though, so both the dealer and maker should abide By whatever aggreement they have. The dealer should not under value any cue they got directly from the maker, and should abide By any minimum retail price.

I think what really sets some off the most, is people that may not even be a dealer, but more of a flipper or wantabee dealer. Some people poor mouth to death, give the whole shabang about how they really want a cue for their own, only to have the intention of selling that cue at a profit. That to Me is dishonest, and totally uncceptable.

I aggree though both sides need to have morals, and be straight with each other from the get go. I would say the same thing, choose your dealers carefully.

Greg
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MY FAVORITE ARE THE GUYS THAT ADVERTISE/SELL ON EBAY AT THE PRICE THAT ARE TOLD TO USE, BUT HAVE IT REALLY BIG "E-MAIL ME FOR MY BOTTOM PRICE" THAT TO ME IS TOTAL BS....THESE GUYS AREN'T EVEN PAYING FOR ANY INVENTORY. DROP SHIPMENTS KILLED THE PRODUCTION CUE RESALE PROFIT MARGIN. IF THESE BASEMENT/TRUNK SELLERS HAD TO LAY OUT CASH FOR INVENTORY THEY COULDN'T MAKE IT.

I WAS SETTING UP FOR A BULK BUY FROM VIKING, BACK BACKED OFF WHEN I EMAILED AN EBAY SELLER SELLING THE CUES, AND HIS PRICE TO ME WAS 6 BUCKS MORE THAN IT WOULD HAVE COST ME DIRECT, AND I HAD TO BUY A LARGE AMOUNT OF CUES TO GET ME PRICE. I JUST DON'T UNDERSTAND WHY SOMEBODY WOULD DO ALL THE WORK IN SELLING A CUE TO MAKE 6 BUCKS???????

P.S. A % DEAL IS THE BEST FOR A CUEMAKER/DEALER AGREEMENT. THAT WAY EVEN IF THE MAKER RAISES PRICING, THE DEALER CAN'T GET UPSET BECAUSE THEY STILL SAVE THE SAME PERCENTANGE. (ACTUALLY SAVING MORE MONEY, BECAUSE OF THE HIGHER RETAIL PRICE)
 
Travis Niklich said:
I think there is a big difference between a flipper and a dealer. All of my dealers sell at my retail price and have a large investment in all there cues. To me a flipper is the guy ho buy cue at low prices from busted pool players at a low price then sells them somewhere else. Ether way as a cue maker once you take the money that's it for you can't say much about what someone sells it for later.
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well the thing about that is it's hard to criticize someone who got a good deal and decided to sell the cue for more later. if i buy a cue for cheap from someone for whatever the reason i dont see why selling it for more would be a problem.

i think flippers are fine as long as they dont over devalue the cue.
 
FAST_N_LOOSE said:
MY FAVORITE ARE THE GUYS THAT ADVERTISE/SELL ON EBAY AT THE PRICE THAT ARE TOLD TO USE, BUT HAVE IT REALLY BIG "E-MAIL ME FOR MY BOTTOM PRICE" THAT TO ME IS TOTAL BS....THESE GUYS AREN'T EVEN PAYING FOR ANY INVENTORY. DROP SHIPMENTS KILLED THE PRODUCTION CUE RESALE PROFIT MARGIN. IF THESE BASEMENT/TRUNK SELLERS HAD TO LAY OUT CASH FOR INVENTORY THEY COULDN'T MAKE IT.

I WAS SETTING UP FOR A BULK BUY FROM VIKING, BACK BACKED OFF WHEN I EMAILED AN EBAY SELLER SELLING THE CUES, AND HIS PRICE TO ME WAS 6 BUCKS MORE THAN IT WOULD HAVE COST ME DIRECT, AND I HAD TO BUY A LARGE AMOUNT OF CUES TO GET ME PRICE. I JUST DON'T UNDERSTAND WHY SOMEBODY WOULD DO ALL THE WORK IN SELLING A CUE TO MAKE 6 BUCKS???????

P.S. A % DEAL IS THE BEST FOR A CUEMAKER/DEALER AGREEMENT. THAT WAY EVEN IF THE MAKER RAISES PRICING, THE DEALER CAN'T GET UPSET BECAUSE THEY STILL SAVE THE SAME PERCENTANGE. (ACTUALLY SAVING MORE MONEY, BECAUSE OF THE HIGHER RETAIL PRICE)
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Yeah That's the kind of thing I'm refering to. I was just a small time dealer, had permission to sell at some of the local pool places, and was allowed to put in displays if I had wanted, but even as small as I was, I always paid for My orders in advance, and had shipped to My door, so It was product in hand even when I sold on ebay, and I also took pictures of the each and every Item.

Right before I started getting out of It, I was debating on opening a website, and was offered use of stock photos & info, as well as the drop shipping from one of My sources, and that sure would have made things easier and more profitable, but with the price wars, It made no sense to stay into it at that time, the damage had been done already.

Yeah, I've seen that too, I've even seen them actually listed that cheap before, and It seems senseless to sell for a few bucks over cost, why even bother. It costs more to have the stuff shipped. I never understood why people did that. Especially when It was new product, and not even old unsellable stock they were trying to recoop some of their capital on. It's just bad bussiness for everyone IMO. Nothing wrong with discounting a product if It's hard to move, but there should be a limit.

Greg
 
Danktrees said:
well the thing about that is it's hard to criticize someone who got a good deal and decided to sell the cue for more later. if i buy a cue for cheap from someone for whatever the reason i dont see why selling it for more would be a problem.

i think flippers are fine as long as they dont over devalue the cue.
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IF IT'S A USED CUE IT DOESN'T MATTER.

IF IT'S A NEW CUE THAT WAS BOUGHT AT A DISCOUNT BY A DEALER, AND THEN SOLD AT HIS DEALER COST OF JUST ABOVE, IT'S NOT FAIR TO THE CUEMAKERS OTHER CUSTOMERS.

THERE IS A DIFFERENCE BETWEEN SELLING A USED CUE CHEAP, AND WHOREING OUT A CUEMAKERS NEW CUES.
 
FAST_N_LOOSE said:
MY FAVORITE ARE THE GUYS THAT ADVERTISE/SELL ON EBAY AT THE PRICE THAT ARE TOLD TO USE, BUT HAVE IT REALLY BIG "E-MAIL ME FOR MY BOTTOM PRICE" THAT TO ME IS TOTAL BS....THESE GUYS AREN'T EVEN PAYING FOR ANY INVENTORY. DROP SHIPMENTS KILLED THE PRODUCTION CUE RESALE PROFIT MARGIN. IF THESE BASEMENT/TRUNK SELLERS HAD TO LAY OUT CASH FOR INVENTORY THEY COULDN'T MAKE IT.

I WAS SETTING UP FOR A BULK BUY FROM VIKING, BACK BACKED OFF WHEN I EMAILED AN EBAY SELLER SELLING THE CUES, AND HIS PRICE TO ME WAS 6 BUCKS MORE THAN IT WOULD HAVE COST ME DIRECT, AND I HAD TO BUY A LARGE AMOUNT OF CUES TO GET ME PRICE. I JUST DON'T UNDERSTAND WHY SOMEBODY WOULD DO ALL THE WORK IN SELLING A CUE TO MAKE 6 BUCKS???????

P.S. A % DEAL IS THE BEST FOR A CUEMAKER/DEALER AGREEMENT. THAT WAY EVEN IF THE MAKER RAISES PRICING, THE DEALER CAN'T GET UPSET BECAUSE THEY STILL SAVE THE SAME PERCENTANGE. (ACTUALLY SAVING MORE MONEY, BECAUSE OF THE HIGHER RETAIL PRICE)
Click to expand...

Tap, Tap
Or this one, what do you have to get for it. Makes me feel all warm and Fuzzy :barf:
 
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