Floaters & sinkers

BHQ

we'll miss you
Silver Member
nope, it's not a potty humor thread :grin:
dipped 30 shafts yesterday, resolute
all same dimensions
virtually all the same rpi > 8 to 12
about 1/3 sink like bricks, the rest float
why?

i did notice more bubbles coming from the sinkers
more moisture in them making them denser?


006-18.jpg
 
An interesting observation but I don't think it's the moisture content that is causing them to sink. Reason being, water floats in water.
My guess would be the varying density of the wood itself.
We all know that some woods will sink in water. Consider the logs that were salvaged of the floor of the Great Lakes; they sank.

You may have discovered a quick method for determining which will be your better playing shafts. That is, if you're into heavy/dense shafts.
 
An interesting observation but I don't think it's the moisture content that is causing them to sink. Reason being, water floats in water. did you mean water floats on top of the resolute? i guess i could pour a little in my tube to see what it does?

My guess would be the varying density of the wood itself.
We all know that some woods will sink in water. Consider the logs that were salvaged of the floor of the Great Lakes; they sank.

You may have discovered a quick method for determining which will be your better playing shafts. That is, if you're into heavy/dense shafts.

there were lots more bubbles coming from the sinker shafts
arent the bubbles supposed to be the moisture releasing from the wood?

 
Quote BHQ :
"did you mean water floats on top of the resolute? i guess i could pour a little in my tube to see what it does?" End quote.

No, I meant what I said as a generalization. I don't know the specific gravity (sg) of any of the stabilizers because I don't use them.
Again, speaking in general terms, I don't know that there is such a tremendous difference in the SG btwn water and Resolute that would cause some shafts to sink like a 'brick'.

As a side note, there may already be water in your dip tank. It's my understanding that the stabilizers displace water so if that's the case, where did the water go from the shafts you've previously dipped?
Or, is this a brand new batch of stabilizer?
 
Quote BHQ :
"did you mean water floats on top of the resolute? i guess i could pour a little in my tube to see what it does?" End quote.

No, I meant what I said as a generalization. I don't know the specific gravity (sg) of any of the stabilizers because I don't use them.
Again, speaking in general terms, I don't know that there is such a tremendous difference in the SG btwn water and Resolute that would cause some shafts to sink like a 'brick'.

As a side note, there may already be water in your dip tank. It's my understanding that the stabilizers displace water so if that's the case, where did the water go from the shafts you've previously dipped?
Or, is this a brand new batch of stabilizer?
this is a new tube full
but that is a real good point
if indeed these products do what they say they do, where's the moisture?
in the bottom of the tube????????????? the top?????????
this isnt something i just noticed yesterday
always noticed it, but never bothered mentioning till now
and since i woke up at 4:15am :rolleyes:, what else was i gonna do? was too early to go chase the snake . LOL
 
there were lots more bubbles coming from the sinker shafts
arent the bubbles supposed to be the moisture releasing from the wood?


Why would it displace moisture? I don't really see how or why it would. It would seem to me it would just displace air and replace it filling any voids making it harder for the wood to exchange moisture as the outside environment changes. The wood can't gain moisture if it is already occupied by another substance. Can some of the experts out there explain exactly what is taking place really and not just a guess or theory.
We need to also take into account this is all happening naturally and not in a vacuum chamber or under pressure.
 
Why would it displace moisture? I don't really see how or why it would. It would seem to me it would just displace air and replace it filling any voids making it harder for the wood to exchange moisture as the outside environment changes. The wood can't gain moisture if it is already occupied by another substance. Can some of the experts out there explain exactly what is taking place really and not just a guess or theory.
We need to also take into account this is all happening naturally and not in a vacuum chamber or under pressure.
i looked on joe barringers site
didnt find much about exactly what resolute does
my internet search of resolute didnt help either, but i remember someone on here posting it before
i just cant find it right now
my computers giving me fits today


here's what chris h said about it in another thread

It depends on your climate why you hang wood. In some climates you hang kiln dried wood to let it dry a little more, but in most areas you are hanging dry wood to let it stabilize to your climate which usually means kiln dried wood will take on a little moisture.
Nelsonite and Resolute do not block out all moisture exchange. Nor does it make the wood wetter except for a few weeks while the chemical evaporates out of the wood leaving behind a fine powder in the pores of the wood. What this does is slow down the moisture exchange to such a slow rate that the wood does not get shocked and warp as much or as quickly as untreated wood.Chris
 
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nope, it's not a potty humor thread :grin:
dipped 30 shafts yesterday, resolute
all same dimensions
virtually all the same rpi > 8 to 12
about 1/3 sink like bricks, the rest float
why?

i did notice more bubbles coming from the sinkers
more moisture in them making them denser?


006-18.jpg

Hi,

Being a former commercial hard hat diver for 30 years I thought I would weigh in on this one because I have studied Archimedes Principal and used it in practical applications.

All matter has a specific gravity number and where buoyancy is concerned it is relative to 1 which is the datum number for water. If an item is less than 1 it floats, if it is greater than 1 it sinks. Each wood species also has it's own nominal specific gravity classification. That does not mean every maple shaft is the same. Also, if the diameter and taper of the shafts are not exactly the same their unit volume will be different.

Fluids also have a specific gravity factor and I would guess nelsonite is a little less than 1. This being said, the reason some of your shafts sink is because they are denser ( heavier ) that the ones that float. The specific gravity number given to Hard Maple is average baseline number. The floating shafts are no doubt from areas of the tree where the wood fibers are less dense.

The shafts that float will not be a good as the ones that sink but a scale would have told you the same information.

Rick Geschrey
 
Bubbles are air. Weigh them.

John

I have to strongly disagree with you here...it would be easier to measure its dimensions to formulate the weight of the bubble using previously known combined gas and tensioned liquid densities per given area size.

Bet you could figure it accurate to .001 that way and you don't have to murder the bubble.

poor bubbles... just like Michael's bubbles you shouldn't touch them....

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after thinking up the funny website name which i thought was catchy lol, I went to godaddy to check it out and that lead me to researching for info on how stabilizer works.

and it lead me to this little pot of gold from Oregon State University...has some pretty darn good info.

Enjoy the fruits of my labor...for they tase of sweetness!


The gold lieth here -> http://owic.oregonstate.edu/pubs/peg.pdf
 
Hi,

Being a former commercial hard hat diver for 30 years I thought I would weigh in on this one because I have studied Archimedes Principal and used it in practical applications.

All matter has a specific gravity number and where buoyancy is concerned it is relative to 1 which is the datum number for water. If an item is less than 1 it floats, if it is greater than 1 it sinks. Each wood species also has it's own nominal specific gravity classification. That does not mean every maple shaft is the same. Also, if the diameter and taper of the shafts are not exactly the same their unit volume will be different.

Fluids also have a specific gravity factor and I would guess nelsonite is a little less than 1. This being said, the reason some of your shafts sink is because they are denser ( heavier ) that the ones that float. The specific gravity number given to Hard Maple is average baseline number. The floating shafts are no doubt from areas of the tree where the wood fibers are less dense.

The shafts that float will not be a good as the ones that sink but a scale would have told you the same information.

Rick Geschrey

i wish i would have weighed them before dipping
i dont think wieghing them now while wet with resolute would mean much do you?
by the way, all were exact same size

if the sinkers are the denser, less porous of the bunch, it seems like the resolute wouldnt get into the wood as much, displacing air, moisture or whatever, therefore less bubbles rising to the surface. right? or am i backwards here?
 
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i wish i would have weighed them before dipping
i dont think wieghing them now while wet with resolute would mean much do you?
by the way, all were exact same size

if the sinkers are the denser, less porous of the bunch, it seems like the resolute wouldnt get into the wood as much, displacing air, mositure or whatever, therefore less bubbles rising to the surface. right? or am i backwards here?

the way it explains it in the link i provided is:

the chemical is is a polymer similar to antifreeze and tho it has some of the qualites that other polymers possess none of them have to specific qualities that are unique to the stabilizing compound.

The polymer enters the fine structure of the wood by diffusion,
thus application of pressure is of little
value. The large molecules of the chemical displace
the natural moisture in the microscopic,
lattice-like structure of the wood-fiber walls.


the percent of water(dependent largely on growth conditions and
species) based on the weight of the ovendry wood. This water is (1) contained as free water in the cell cavities and the intercellular spaces of the wood and (2) held as absorbed water in the capillaries of the walls of wood elements, such as fibers and ray cells. The absorbed water relates
to shrinkage. When all of the free water is removed and all of the absorbed water remains, wood has reached the fiber saturation point,approximately 30 percent moisture content for allspecies. Shrinkage occurs only when the moisture content of wood is reduced to some level belowthe 30 percent fiber saturation point. “Partially dry” wood refers here to wood that has not been
dried to a moisture content of 30 percent or less.

The product they are using is called PEG


Mixing PEG Solutions
The two solutions commonly used are 30 and 50 percent PEG by weight. Exactly 4.46 pounds of polyethylene glycol-1000 dissolved in 5 quarts of water yield 7 quarts of 30 percent solution with a specific gravity of 1.05 at 60° F. PEG in pure form is a white, waxlike chemical that resembles
paraffin. A solid at room temperature, PEG melts at 104° F., has an average molecular weight of 1.000, dissolves readily in warm water, is nontoxic,
noncorrosive, odorless, colorless, and has a very high fire point (580° F.).


Ten pounds of polyethylene glycol dissolved in an equal weight of water (about 4.8 qt.) yield about 7.4 quarts of 50 percent solution with a specific
gravity of 1.093 at 60° F. A precision hydrometeraccurate for the desired range of specific gravities will help maintain the proper concentration
of the solution during treatment. PEG does not volatilize at the temperatures
normally used in treating vats, but water does evaporate during long treating cycles, even in covered (but not airtight) vats. Accordingly, it
is usually necessary to replace water lost by evaporation before chemical must be added to make up for that diffused into the wood during
treatment.

They go on about techniques on gun stocks and all sort of application details, info and steps.

From what I'm seeing it sure seems to be as good as the resolute or nelsonite, but its not toxic so you won't have to worry about all the PPE that YOU SHOULD BE WEARING when working with nelsonite or resolute.

Its pretty good amount of info hope its enjoying and helpful to someone.
 
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there were lots more bubbles coming from the sinker shafts
arent the bubbles supposed to be the moisture releasing from the wood?


If you physically submerge the floaters, do you get the same amount of bubbles then?
 
Did you stick a needle on them to read their MC ?
Am guessing the sinkers were closer to the center of the tree.
 
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