Flowers Style Case Update
- Thread starter JB Cases
- Start date
dave sutton
Banned
maybe you should just write " in memory of jay flowers" generally I agree with you but here I think a simple change in wording would do you good. Yes the general public doesn't "vote" on your product but they do control if it survived or not.
I'm on your side about the whole import thing. If a product is quality it shouldn't matter where it's made.
We had a similar discussion with leon sly and his "S" logo. It was the same as dennis searing. Leon changed it to avoid any confussion. That's what I think everyone is worried about. Dated or not people will see jay flowers and that will be that.
Leon is a great guy btw
I'm on your side about the whole import thing. If a product is quality it shouldn't matter where it's made.
We had a similar discussion with leon sly and his "S" logo. It was the same as dennis searing. Leon changed it to avoid any confussion. That's what I think everyone is worried about. Dated or not people will see jay flowers and that will be that.
Leon is a great guy btw
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Wow ... Maybe cooler heads should prevail here before something gets started that may hurt both parties . From the reputation that both of these case makers have both build great products and take alot of pride in thier work. I don't see where any good can come from these two getting on here and putting down each others products or each other as a person. Both have done well in the industry and helped to further thier profession. Both have healthy customer basis and deservedly so. And both men seem to be fine people that have helped other players and the game of pool in itsself.
I have studied both lines of Cases and can honestly say the work they do is magnificent... The Gambler Case John builds is a Beauty and a masterpiece in my opinion... Along with the Scallop line and Rolls Royce line and the Traditional line ... And several of Johns other Cases and lines ... Justis puts out some masterpieces also Like the Fisher case , The Schmidt case , I love the look of the Gabe Owens case that is one of my favs. From both case makers the work is beautiful and very well detailed. Niether of these guys stands to gain in a situation where they get into a public flame war here in Public. I have never seen anyone win in this situation everyone losses ... Only the competition wins and both men walk away a little damaged.
I look at several lines of cases from more case makers then these two and all seem the same in many ways, Many of the cases have alot in common and that goes back to the cases Mr Flowers made ... I mean how many ways can you build a case ? If permission was given I don't see the problem? And honestly if either of these fine case makers built a case to honor my work then I myself would be highly honored. There is no doubt in my mind that niether of these case makers need to do anything wrong to make a profit they both put out a great product that customers keep coming back for . And I doubt either of them are hurting for much ...
Again a flame war here in public would only hurt both companies ... I would hate to see that because both of these men have worked hard to get where they are in the industry and both men have given back to the industry ... Not to mention all the public negative press they would publish here that would give anyone who has a vandetta against either one the ammunition to keep posting to hurt them in the future. There is no sense in doing this here most will not enjoy it or look highly on it ... Some may love it and feed off of it and pump it up but is that what you want ? Are those the type of people your looking to please??? If so JCin is here and maybe we can put this into a TAR match where people can make a profit at both of your expenses ... I sure hope cooler heads prevail here and this stops before it gets started. It can only lend to damage both of you as people and the business that both of you have worked so hard to give such a great name too...
I have studied both lines of Cases and can honestly say the work they do is magnificent... The Gambler Case John builds is a Beauty and a masterpiece in my opinion... Along with the Scallop line and Rolls Royce line and the Traditional line ... And several of Johns other Cases and lines ... Justis puts out some masterpieces also Like the Fisher case , The Schmidt case , I love the look of the Gabe Owens case that is one of my favs. From both case makers the work is beautiful and very well detailed. Niether of these guys stands to gain in a situation where they get into a public flame war here in Public. I have never seen anyone win in this situation everyone losses ... Only the competition wins and both men walk away a little damaged.
I look at several lines of cases from more case makers then these two and all seem the same in many ways, Many of the cases have alot in common and that goes back to the cases Mr Flowers made ... I mean how many ways can you build a case ? If permission was given I don't see the problem? And honestly if either of these fine case makers built a case to honor my work then I myself would be highly honored. There is no doubt in my mind that niether of these case makers need to do anything wrong to make a profit they both put out a great product that customers keep coming back for . And I doubt either of them are hurting for much ...
Again a flame war here in public would only hurt both companies ... I would hate to see that because both of these men have worked hard to get where they are in the industry and both men have given back to the industry ... Not to mention all the public negative press they would publish here that would give anyone who has a vandetta against either one the ammunition to keep posting to hurt them in the future. There is no sense in doing this here most will not enjoy it or look highly on it ... Some may love it and feed off of it and pump it up but is that what you want ? Are those the type of people your looking to please??? If so JCin is here and maybe we can put this into a TAR match where people can make a profit at both of your expenses ... I sure hope cooler heads prevail here and this stops before it gets started. It can only lend to damage both of you as people and the business that both of you have worked so hard to give such a great name too...
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JCIN said:
It's Justis, and no there is no battle. Jack asked a question, I responded to that question and I asked him his thoughts on his own actions when he started.
I didn't question Jack's integrity but instead what his thoughts are on design and design theft. I think it's fair if we are going to discuss my actions and motivations for those actions that we also hold ourselves up to similar inspection.
I have always been completely upfront about where I make things and why I make them there and what my goals are, what drives me, what I don't like and what I do like.
I can't say the same for most of my colleagues. I am a part of this community and don't just show up when I have something to sell. Look at my posting record and you will see that an awful lot of my posts are comments and discussions on a wide variety of topics.
So even though I make myself a target by participating here that doesn't mean that you or anyone else has unlimited license to snipe without rebuttal.
You are entitled to your opinion. So is Jack. Just don't think for a second that anything you say to denigrate me will go unanswered. I think probably my questions will go unanswered though.
dave sutton said:
Good point. Yes, if I did a logo that were the same as Jay used then I would definitely change it. This logo is not the same.
I want people to see J. Flowers. I want them to learn about the case they are buying and where it came from. I want them to Google it and come on my website and find out out about the history of cue case making and the genre of cases spawned by Jay's work.
Right now the name Jay Flowers is only known by very few folks, most of them right here on AZ.
My goal here is to promote this genre of case and make sure that history is not rewritten and that Jay is not forgotten.
The whole point of the logo being the way it is and the date is to insure that there is no confusion between this production and any J. EF cases that were made in the past. It pays homage to the pioneer by carrying his name, preserves history by emulating the style, and shows an evolution of protection with the new construction methods attached to it.
larrynj1 said:
Chris Tate has a nice write up on some of the Flowers and Justis cases at his website,
www.palmercollector.com
I have plenty of pix that eventually will posted in somewhere to be sort of a history of case making.
Early John Barton cases looked nothing like anything anyone had ever done previously. You will be hard pressed to find any examples and I apparently have lost my one photo album of my early work. They were all one-of-a-kinds done in funky colors and materials with weird pockets sometimes and hand embroidered designs that were done by me.
Then later the cowboy design came out. I can't claim all the credit for that design. I did a series of cases for a German distributor that featured the scallop design embroidered on the case. While I was presenting them to that distributor I had a conversation with a man named Peter Hackbarth and together we sketched out the now famous Cowboy design. We were due to make it together but he went and had some version of it made in poland or hungary or something like that. I had our version done in our factory according to my ideas of case making (protection first you know) and the rest, is history.
What many don't know is that Jay Flowers actually put out quite a lot of different looking cases. Although I would consider the design I am doing now to be the one most associated with his name and possibly the most popular one, he did do a large number of cases with different looks and construction methods. I intend to cover those as well because I think that a lot of what he did was great and deserves to be re-popularized.
There are only so many ways to make a case. Only so many ways to arrange buckles and latches and lids that function well and are easy to use. The decoration that can go on a case is unlimited though. That's why I chose two basic designs to begin with and plan to expand on them while staying fairly close to what Jay did. That's the Jay Flowers influence in full bloom.
Jack started, in my opinion, with cases that were very similar to Jay's designs, and eventually the cases diverged enough in design that a Jack Justis case and a J.EF case are now clearly distinct. Jack has forged his own look and it's a fantastic one, clean and classy, and unmistakeably Justis.
That's not the goal with this line. The goal with this line for me is celebrate the design diversity and influence that Jay brought us. It's purposefully named J.Flowers so that there is no mistake as to the heritage of the genre.
JB Cases said:
Thanks for sticking it out John. I believe almost all of us see benefit in having you and JCIN both here. I really hope this discussion can end here, at least publicly. All parties involved have been excellent towards me in every business dealing we have had and both produce an excellent product by the way.
John Thanks for doing the flowers cases as you know i have been a vendor at tournys since the early 80's i had many chances to meet and talk with Jay at the shows.I think his cases are a part of history he was a pioneer in the case making industry thanks for keeping his name and memory alive....Lee
also some other case makers i know personally Jack Justis,Ron Thomas,Dan whitten, all are true gemtleman and good friends and even though i just met you once at the derby I have been very impressed with your cases lately good luck ...Lee
also some other case makers i know personally Jack Justis,Ron Thomas,Dan whitten, all are true gemtleman and good friends and even though i just met you once at the derby I have been very impressed with your cases lately good luck ...Lee
:banghead:
Just to give everyone a refresher course in trademarks here is a pretty good primer from Harvard Law.
http://cyber.law.harvard.edu/metaschool/fisher/domain/tm.htm
And from a less credible source but still good reading
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trademark
I don't want anyone to get the idea through the words of some posters that I am doing anything illegal. Jack Justis has inferred that I am doing something illegal and I am not.
Let's keep things factual here.
http://cyber.law.harvard.edu/metaschool/fisher/domain/tm.htm
And from a less credible source but still good reading
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trademark
I don't want anyone to get the idea through the words of some posters that I am doing anything illegal. Jack Justis has inferred that I am doing something illegal and I am not.
Let's keep things factual here.
Great information above John.
Now how about a Copy Write Lesson along the same subject.
BTW I book marked those sites.
Now how about a Copy Write Lesson along the same subject.
BTW I book marked those sites.
Copyright Information:
http://www.copyright.com/ccc/viewPage.do?pageCode=cr10-n
Commercial goods cannot be copyrighted.
http://www.copyright.com/ccc/viewPage.do?pageCode=cr10-n
Commercial goods cannot be copyrighted.
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The one funny thing is about ENFORCING a Contracts, Copy Writes, Trade Marks, or Patent INFRINGEMENT, all of those are only as good as you have the money to spend on LAWYERS to fight the infringement with.
SAD TRUTH IS........Rich people, companies, corporations get Justice, Poor People get .
SAD TRUTH IS........Rich people, companies, corporations get Justice, Poor People get .
I have NO idea what my case order# is ????
I have NO idea what my case order# is . . . 2008-xxx
So I have no idea as to when I can expect delivery?
And also, I am not clear on whether it will be made in your JB shop or in the Jiasen Cue Case factory?
JB Cases said:
I have NO idea what my case order# is . . . 2008-xxx
So I have no idea as to when I can expect delivery?
And also, I am not clear on whether it will be made in your JB shop or in the Jiasen Cue Case factory?
imax said:I have NO idea what my case order# is . . . 2008-xxx
So I have no idea as to when I can expect delivery?
And also, I am not clear on whether it will be made in your JB shop or in the Jiasen Cue Case factory?
I sent you a PM - or maybe I didn't - your order # is 2008-017 and your case will be made in my shop.
Next week orders 2008-009 - 2008-014 will be completed and shipped.
Whoever still doesn't know their numbers please contact me at jb@jbideas.com
JCIN said:
I see the point that a FEW people were making but you don't or won't see mine.
You few people want to charge me with some kind of legal and ethical misdeed because I chose to to brand the cases J.Flowers. As if I am going to sell more of them because of this and I am going to rape the Jay Flowers name and make a "profit" from it.
I sold 25 of these cases when they had no name, right here on AZ, to people who could care less what name is on them.
You might not like me or like what I do but don't confuse me with someone stupid that you can lecture at will and expect to bend to your vision of the world.
The fact is that I chose this name deliberately for a reason that has nothing to do with profit or value of the name. I didn't do this on a whim it was done after a lot of thought. When these cases are advertised in the future most of the people who will be reading those advertisements will have no clue who Jay Flowers was.
We here on AZ Billiards are pretty insulated and knowledgeable about the past - those who don't spend their time here everyday generally are not. Therefore to them the name Jay Flowers means about as much as John Smith. I'd even be willing to bet that some on here ordered this case without even really knowing who Jay Flowers was. (it's a lock Justin)
As I said, I could have called these cases anything I want and they will sell without any problem. For lineage I can and will provide a link to Jay Flower's designs and my own history in cue cases to educate and assure customers of the quality. I don't need to attach the Flowers name directly to this product to validate it. You should consider then what other motivation besides "profit" would I choose deliberately to brand this case as I did?
Maybe taking a few moments to consider these things would enable you to understand that not everything is motivated by profit and greed.