focusing on the object ball during follow through

[Jerry Yost]

Keith McCready 2003 US Open - 3rd

McCready over Buddy Hall
McCready over Ted Guerrieri
McCready over Alex Pagulayan
McCready over Niels Feijen
McCready over Jose Parica

I think they play on 9' tables there don't they?

May not have the title but I still think that qualifies as world class!

 

[Cameron Smith]

Well Cameron, it appears that you know it all and shouldn't even have asked your question

I dont mean to come off as a know it all Im just playing the devils advocate whenever I see arguements that don't seem logical. I just don't think that analogies regarding baseball, darts, shooting etc. are acqurate because, as cornerman said, pool is a very unique sport. I will give your drill a try on sunday when i have an opportunity at the table.

P.S. I do look at the object ball last, I just want to know why this is neccessary or if it is simply billiards myth. Im starting to believe to some degree its a myth.

Regards

 

[pete lafond]

I dont mean to come off as a know it all Im just playing the devils advocate whenever I see arguements that don't seem logical. I just don't think that analogies regarding baseball, darts, shooting etc. are acqurate because, as cornerman said, pool is a very unique sport. I will give your drill a try on sunday when i have an opportunity at the table.

P.S. I do look at the object ball last, I just want to know why this is neccessary or if it is simply billiards myth. Im starting to believe to some degree its a myth.

Regards

Since this thread started, I began paying attention to the pros eyes as they shoot. So far of all the pros I've been able to watch, at trigger time, they seem to lock in on the object ball. Don't know if this helps you at all. You might also want to pay attention if you have the opportunity.

 

[Scott Lee]

Then someone please explain go me why McCready plays much better on a bar table. Hint: it is because he looks at the CB last.

Keith, Earl, and Scott Lee do not shoot long shots well. All are talented and I always wonder how much better they could have been if they had looked at the CB last.

Switching from looking at the CB last to the OB last is difficult - I call it the 'chicken theory'. They don't trust themselves to do this. They have depended on the crutch of looking at the CB last for so long it is near impossible to switch. This is why Scott Lee and others, IMO, promulgate looking at the CB last, to hide their weaknesses. I don't mean to bash Scott Lee as he is a very fine teacher......and this it the one point that I disagree strongly with him on. I know this because I switched from looking at the CB last for 2 years to the OB, and my game went up a whole lot. At first I was indeed 'chicken', but I stuck with it.

To test this, shoot long 80 degree cut shots in for an hour, using both methods. You will discover for yourself what is the best method and this should be the end of the story.

Ray... I don't think you're qualified to determine whether or not I shoot long shots well...since you've spent a grand total of two hours with me (and that was almost 5 yrs ago)...and during that lesson, you were shooting the majority of the time, not me! Although it's true that I have played and taught, for many years, looking at the CB last, I have never stated catagorically that one HAS to look at the CB last. I have said that either way will work, depending of the player. The truth is, it really doesn't matter where you look last, if your stroke and timing are well-tuned and repeatable. That said, I have been experimenting with returning to looking at the OB last (which is the way I learned to play 35 yrs ago), after discussions and experiments with Randyg...particularly in light of learning more about Personal Eye Patterns. I am capable of playing either way. I'll certainly shoot those thin cuts you describe, shot for shot, with you...and put some cheese on each one (and I promise to look at the CB last on each shot). We'll see who walks away with empty pockets.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

 

[Colin Colenso]

I dont mean to come off as a know it all Im just playing the devils advocate whenever I see arguements that don't seem logical. I just don't think that analogies regarding baseball, darts, shooting etc. are acqurate because, as cornerman said, pool is a very unique sport. I will give your drill a try on sunday when i have an opportunity at the table.

P.S. I do look at the object ball last, I just want to know why this is neccessary or if it is simply billiards myth. Im starting to believe to some degree its a myth.

Regards

Hi Cameron,
Firstly I think it is constructive to have debaters playing the role of devil's advocate. It tends towards more penetrating insights to provide evidence for arguments. Ii do this myself from time to time but haven't had the good sense to offer my opinions as devil's advocacy

Now to the point!

I believe non-OB-focus on delivery is not only possible, but potentially advantageous. But it won't be for the weekend hack, or even the mid-level pro. It will be something that can only be performed at elite levels of play by someone with a deep understanding of all alignment and compensation factors.

The main reason more do not attempt it, is they are not aware of the importance of bridge point positioning, nor of the various effects of spin, speed, bridge length, sweep and CB to OB distance. If they knew how to pre-calculate for all these things, they could pre-align and simply shoot at the CB. Then look up to observe their handiwork

But of course that is a trek away, so no one here is likely to make the step successfully with a few sessions of practice. They need a much firmer base of knowledge to bridge that gap, from the world of Intuitive Adjustments to a world of Systematic Prediction.

The Calculator

 

[pooltchr]

Hi Cameron,
Firstly I think it is constructive to have debaters playing the role of devil's advocate. It tends towards more penetrating insights to provide evidence for arguments. Ii do this myself from time to time but haven't had the good sense to offer my opinions as devil's advocacy

Now to the point!

I believe non-OB-focus on delivery is not only possible, but potentially advantageous. But it won't be for the weekend hack, or even the mid-level pro. It will be something that can only be performed at elite levels of play by someone with a deep understanding of all alignment and compensation factors.

The main reason more do not attempt it, is they are not aware of the importance of bridge point positioning, nor of the various effects of spin, speed, bridge length, sweep and CB to OB distance. If they knew how to pre-calculate for all these things, they could pre-align and simply shoot at the CB. Then look up to observe their handiwork

But of course that is a trek away, so no one here is likely to make the step successfully with a few sessions of practice. They need a much firmer base of knowledge to bridge that gap, from the world of Intuitive Adjustments to a world of Systematic Prediction.

The Calculator

Since you stated earlier that you look at the cue ball when you are making your final stroke, does this mean you consider yourself one of the few elite level players who is capable of making this eye pattern work? I'm just wondering how good you have to be for it to work. I know I'm not good enough to do it. I trust my stroke to make contact with the cue ball in the way I want to get the intended spin, but I still need to be looking where I want to send it.
Steve

 

[pete lafond]

Now to the point!

I believe non-OB-focus on delivery is not only possible, but potentially advantageous. But it won't be for the weekend hack, or even the mid-level pro. It will be something that can only be performed at elite levels of play by someone with a deep understanding of all alignment and compensation factors.
..
The Calculator

I assume you mean that your eyes are locked onto the CB and even after the shot your focus remains on the same spot where the CB used to be. If not and your eyes follow the CB, please, explain because I do not believe that yours eyes could travel as fast as the CB except on slow shots. If you are looking at the line of the CB to end point, the end of the line is the OB making the OB the ultimate focus.

Also, assuming that you look at the CB at the time you pull the trigger I would then expect that you could close your eyes and achieve the same potting percentages. I am not criticizing, just trying to figure your focus. In all sports there is a point where the player locks onto something which is how they become effective.

Thanks and look forward to some good insight.

 

[Colin Colenso]

Since you stated earlier that you look at the cue ball when you are making your final stroke, does this mean you consider yourself one of the few elite level players who is capable of making this eye pattern work? I'm just wondering how good you have to be for it to work. I know I'm not good enough to do it. I trust my stroke to make contact with the cue ball in the way I want to get the intended spin, but I still need to be looking where I want to send it.
Steve

Good question...I should have explained further...It did make me look arrogant

I am learning to shoot this way, and so it is critical to look at the CB so as to test and improve the method.

If I had to play a tournament tomorrow, I'd probably convert to looking at OB last, as I am still learning, adapting to pre-alignment with CB shaft focus on shot.

 

[Colin Colenso]

I assume you mean that your eyes are locked onto the CB and even after the shot your focus remains on the same spot where the CB used to be. If not and your eyes follow the CB, please, explain because I do not believe that yours eyes could travel as fast as the CB except on slow shots. If you are looking at the line of the CB to end point, the end of the line is the OB making the OB the ultimate focus.

Also, assuming that you look at the CB at the time you pull the trigger I would then expect that you could close your eyes and achieve the same potting percentages. I am not criticizing, just trying to figure your focus. In all sports there is a point where the player locks onto something which is how they become effective.

Thanks and look forward to some good insight.

My eyes are not locked, but moving between the shaft and CB on final delivery observing the straightness of delivery and contact point on the CB and perceiving the speed of execution.

On execution my eyes drift up to look for the impact result to see if the CB acts as I hoped. I may miss some of the travel, but what I want to see is where the OB and CB went relative to my plans. If they are off, I try to figure out why.

My percentages for potting this may are nearly identical in practice, though on some shots like fine cuts with OE, I have aligned to them for so long with Intuitive Adjustment swipe, I need to learn more about pre-aligning to them. On the shots I have practiced a lot this way, I actually seem to pot better with CB focus on hit, as it tends to stop me from making small 2nd guesses during the shot which sometimes cause misses with OB last focus.

When I do this, my pre-alignment routine is very exacting, looking very hard at the OB to make sure I get the pre-alignment as accurate as possible. I may spen 15 seconds finding my bridge position on some shots before I am ready to execute the shot.

 

[pete lafond]

My eyes are not locked, but moving between the shaft and CB on final delivery observing the straightness of delivery and contact point on the CB and perceiving the speed of execution.

On execution my eyes drift up to look for the impact result to see if the CB acts as I hoped. I may miss some of the travel, but what I want to see is where the OB and CB went relative to my plans. If they are off, I try to figure out why.

My percentages for potting this may are nearly identical in practice, though on some shots like fine cuts with OE, I have aligned to them for so long with Intuitive Adjustment swipe, I need to learn more about pre-aligning to them. On the shots I have practiced a lot this way, I actually seem to pot better with CB focus on hit, as it tends to stop me from making small 2nd guesses during the shot which sometimes cause misses with OB last focus.

When I do this, my pre-alignment routine is very exacting, looking very hard at the OB to make sure I get the pre-alignment as accurate as possible. I may spen 15 seconds finding my bridge position on some shots before I am ready to execute the shot.

Thanks for clearification. I do think I would not be able to shoot this way with any consistancey. When I get down, I am already bridge aligned and have decided how to hit the CB. During my stroking I consider any fine tuning at the spot (or place) of the OB.

Your method probably works well for you and others though it would change to much in my game at this point. The reasons as follows; I already know by feel how to get the CB to the exact point I need it to be, no matter the English, speed or stroke intended. My aim is at the OB and finding that exacting spot is most important to me just before I pull the trigger.

 

[Colin Colenso]

Thanks for clearification. I do think I would not be able to shoot this way with any consistancey. When I get down, I am already bridge aligned and have decided how to hit the CB. During my stroking I consider any fine tuning at the spot (or place) of the OB.

Your method probably works well for you and others though it would change to much in my game at this point. The reasons as follows; I already know by feel how to get the CB to the exact point I need it to be, no matter the English, speed or stroke intended. My aim is at the OB and finding that exacting spot is most important to me just before I pull the trigger.

You know Pete, I think the strongest justification for experimenting with CB last vision is that it allows a player to learn about their pre-alignment accuracy and predictions of effects from off center cuing and sweeping. Also, it allow a player to start to study where they are actually hitting the CB and how the cue is really moving through it. This knowledge may come in useful even when used with OB last focus.

In my opinion, the strongest beneft of looking toward the OB on final cuing is to visualize the CB path after collision. The ability to play great shape on the CB is extremely important...for this reason alone I may revert to an OB focused player on execution, but for now, I'm learning a lot about my aligment and predictive capability and my CB striking by focusing on the CB.

Hope that makes sense.

btw: After my league tonight I was playing a couple of English guys. One challenged me to a game of 'Indonesian Pool'. In this game, you have to look at your opponent when hitting the ball. Especially hard as he kept moving to 120 degree positions so I had to twist my body and next to see him ad give the obligatory smile as I struck.

I had 2 close misses in the match, the rest I made including a few challenging pots. Potting hardly made a difference but CB control was tricky. He was quite amazed at how quickly I adapted to this game...but really it wasn't much different to how I practice,,,except the extra twisting. It was quite funny to have been introduced to ths game at this time when we are discussing this.