focusing on the object ball during follow through

[Cornerman]

I read your post as pool is so unique and you can not comapre it to other sports, sorry. I guess you meant that it is not so unique which is what I was saying.

I did say that pool is so unique that you cannot compare to other sports. It is unique. The question was to consider what to focus on last, not whether we focus at all. What I was saying is that you cannot use other sports to try to determine which of the targets you should look at last, unless you find one that has all the three or four attributes of pool.

Again, pool is so unique, that you cannot compare it to other sports. Of course, you have to focus on something. Your post implied that I said otherwise.


Fred <~~~ pool is tremendously unique.

 

[pete lafond]

I did say that pool is so unique that you cannot compare to other sports. It is unique. The question was to consider what to focus on last, not whether we focus at all. What I was saying is that you cannot use other sports to try to determine which of the targets you should look at last, unless you find one that has all the three or four attributes of pool.

Again, pool is so unique, that you cannot compare it to other sports. Of course, you have to focus on something. Your post implied that I said otherwise.


Fred <~~~ pool is tremendously unique.

I guess the similarities I see might be somewhat generalized; Proper balance, muscle movement, focus, mental, eye-hand coordination.. However this thread is about how much focus the OB should get.

Sorry for confusion. My point is that in every sport (except running) there are similarities that exist in understanding how we approach our objective and how to execute it properly. In each and every sport there exists something that enables a level of accuracy. That level of accuracy counts on our knowing what needs to be focused on, the order of focus and what gets the highest priority. Without knowing these things players will greatly reduce their ability to advance in whatever sport.

In addition to the above, there exists a set of self trained principles that we do not think about because they have become engraved in us, we practiced, we have good eye-hand coordination - gained experience . Examples; how to throw a baseball or football, how to swing a club, how to stroke a cue stick. Once we have learned these things we do not need to think about them so much, rather our highest priority is accuracy.

To get a golf ball to fade or draw is intuitive once a golfer become proficient, different strokes in pool to achieve different CB movements, to reduce deflection and squirt, or to enhance curve, or just trusting were the CB is in relation to the tip of the cue .. Many times in golf, baseball, pool,.. we use combinations of these things that can be categorized as finesse.

Anyway, this thread has to do with focusing on the OB and how important it is. The answer is that I believe it should get the highest priority and when pulling the trigger we should be locked on it.

 

[Colin Colenso]

Placing focus on the stroke causes the hands and the body to become susceptible to self-conscious thinking which results in instability of their stroke and uncertainty. Imagine driving a car at 70 mph and paying more attention to the road 2 feet in front of the car even if your eyes shift ahead occasionally. On the other hand, imagine looking straight ahead to a point much further down the road and only occasionally looking at the road 2 feet in front of the car. This is the difference.

Both good points Pete,
But think of the artist. Would he be looking at the brush / canvass point when executing finely detailed stokes. Would he look away to avoid the self-conscious shakes as Max Eberle wrote about. I doubt it...an accomplished artist must overcome such mental barriers.

I agree in fine tuning, but we can also fine tune until we have fixed our bride, determined our cue path and CB contact point, and then bring our focus from the OB back to the CB for execution.

I'm sure this won't work well for most players, because I watch players and 99% of them swipe in their final follow through to adjust.

But I think this is a bad habit to adjust in the final stroke, and looking at the OB last may encourage it.

Another point, in favor of your argument would be that most pros can hit the CB where they want when looking at the OB. The advantage of looking here is they are more interested in visualizing the shape path of the CB after contact.

Anyway, I think people can succeed using different focusing order systems if they are talented and work hard enough on them. As some can execute well with eyes closed on the final stroke, it shows the player can probably adapt to all methods with reasonable success.

 

[Tokyo-dave]

The best 'reason' I've ever heard for the reason why most think it's better to be watching the object ball during the follow through is the place two random dots on a piece of paper about 6 inches apart. Place a pen tip on one point and draw a straight line to the next point. It's easy to do this if your eyes are on the destination point, but almost impossible to do when your eyes stay focused on the starting point.
I thought it was a good way to put it into words. However, I admit that it's hard to explain how such an excercise would relate to pool. Although I'm not one, I know some really good players that when down in their stroking position, almost never look at the object ball, and concentrate primarily on the cue ball throughout the whole stroke. I think whatever works for the individual is fine.
dave

 

[pete lafond]

Both good points Pete,
But think of the artist. Would he be looking at the brush / canvass point when executing finely detailed stokes. Would he look away to avoid the self-conscious shakes as Max Eberle wrote about. I doubt it...an accomplished artist must overcome such mental barriers.

The artist focus is the canvas as he is externalizing his thoughts and emotions using his equipment. Close the artists eyes and the picture will look like, well you know.

I'm sure this won't work well for most players, because I watch players and 99% of them swipe in their final follow through to adjust.

We do not watch our cue stick as we stroke and there is no need to pay so much attention to the CB either because this also is part of our equipment, experience has allowed us to trust. Doesn't mean we ignore it, just receives an earlier priority, not the final one. I've seen more players choke and just miss shots when they spent too much effort on the CB. Keeping focus on the object furthest ahead when executing will cause the most reliable results.

But I think this is a bad habit to adjust in the final stroke, and looking at the OB last may encourage it.

Never said final stroke, but as we stroke and everything falls into place. We should encourage a final adjustment when needed. It is impossible for us to be exacting when we lay down our bridge, we are not robots and our calculations are our best approximation at the time we get down. At the moment we are reedy to pull the trigger, our eyes are now locked onto our target, the OB or the target place of the CB.

Another point, in favor of your argument would be that most pros can hit the CB where they want when looking at the OB. The advantage of looking here is they are more interested in visualizing the shape path of the CB after contact.

Shape is visualized before we get down and becomes real through our ability to finesse with our cue stick and cue ball. Position is feel and less mechanical.

Anyway, I think people can succeed using different focusing order systems if they are talented and work hard enough on them. As some can execute well with eyes closed on the final stroke, it shows the player can probably adapt to all methods with reasonable success.

I agree that many players at different levels do employ their own systems. However I also believe that here lies the difference between the purely mechanical player and the finesse player with good mechanics. Incidentally as I watch today's women players I find them on the mechanical side and the men on the finesse side, not all just most.

I see nothing wrong with playing on the mechanical side and there are multiple systems here. As I mentioned before, a good poll of today's top players would present some good insight. Irving Crane use to say that the aiming system he always used was to make the ball like the last time he made it when it went in.

 

[BRKNRUN]

It really does not matter

How about this suggestion....Everyone at some point during the set up process will look at both CB and OB.....(that is pretty much a given)...

When you get right down to the question of what do you look at last, I don't think it matters....If your foundation is stable and your mechanics are solid....You should be able to close your eyes and shoot......(Everybodys doing it....alot of people doing it).....

I like to experiment....(probably more than I should)...I was messing around with looking at the OB during the shot, but keeping the CB in my peripheral vision.......It actually improved my shotmaking....however...I think all it really did was make me stay still during the shot...thus my mechanics were better.

This may sound crazy...but I think that focusing on a particular spot,,,be it OB, CB or pocket is a distraction... I wonder if it may be best after your alinged and ready to pull the trigger to "mentally" close your eyes and focus on what is really important...(a stable frame and repeatable stroke)

 

[Cameron Smith]

No the bridge is set, the alignment is set and now is the "fine tune" stage, which is why focus is so important on the target OB.

If the bridge and alignment is set how do we fine tune the aim without moving? Is there something ive been missing?

Regards

 

[pete lafond]

If the bridge and alignment is set how do we fine tune the aim without moving? Is there something ive been missing?

Regards

Good question. The answer is that your bridge is one of the least exacting components in our stroke setup. It would be impossible otherwise if we expected the bridge to be exact. You have probably experienced sometimes that your alignment was so far off you had to re-bridge, though usually as you get down on the ball you have everything pretty well aligned. The fine tuning is so small that the same bridge would require zero movement.

I do not know of a single player who does not fine tune their alignment, you would have to be a robot is my guess.

 

[Cameron Smith]

Then someone please explain go me why McCready plays much better on a bar table. Hint: it is because he looks at the CB last.

Keith, Earl, and Scott Lee do not shoot long shots well. All are talented and I always wonder how much better they could have been if they had looked at the CB last.

Earl not good with long shots???? When I watch these guys play they get down into their stance and remain perfectly still, this seems to be all of the top pros. If they don't move any part of their body then it shouldn't matter where they look. They could look at the girl in the stands but that doesn't mean that the cue ball will go there.

 

[Jaden]

Absolutely

I look at the cue and CB when striking now, but in the stroke preparation I stare like hell at the OB to determine the line of aim.

The thing is, if you trust your aim and know how you will execute the shot, there is no point looking at the OB on delivery. It actually can distract you, and you're not so likely to cue to the CB exactly how you intend to.

The reason it improves percentages for most, I believe, is:
1. They are often not perfectly aligned so staring at the OB guides their subconscious to pull or push the CB a fraction left or right on delivery. This slight swiping can alter the OB angle by up to a pocket width over a medium length shot. (3' to OB and 3' to pocket).

If you work harder to set up the alignment initially, then this is not necessary and I think it's a better habit to force oneself into, especially if you want to be able to apply a BHE system which requires perfect center ball alignment to begin.

Try hitting shots looking at the CB after you align and you'll soon find your initial alignment is probably often out of whack a touch.

Yes, this is exactly true. The reason that looking at the OB last seems to work better for some players is that it allows you to do last minute adjustments on your stroke to adjust for misalignment. It's better to develop the proper aim form the stance and watch where and how you stroke throught the CB.

It's kinda like in baseball, you wouldn't want to look over the fence as you're hitting the baseball with your bat would you? Now, of course in the case of baseball the ball is moving and that's not the case in pool, but even still, where you strike the CB is absolutely important in getting the proper english and or stroking straight to get the most consistent hit.

Of course if you want to play by feel and aren't at the level or don't have a system for consistently getting the proper aimline, then you may need to watch the OB last until you can get the proper alignment consistently, but ultimately, you will want to be able to look at the CB last.

My preshot routine consists of using my aiming system to find the line while standing directly behind the OB in line with the pocket, then stepping into my stance, doing two quick practice strokes while looking at the OB, doing two quick practice strokes while looking at the CB, then looking to the OB after the two practice strokes and then looking back to the CB and stroking through it while watching it on the second practice stroke while looking at the CB.

I then pause to make sure I don't jump up and then I look to the shot. If I've followed that to the letter then I don't have to worry about watching the CB or OB because the OB will fall and the CB will go right where I planned it to.

 

[BAZARUS]

In pool there is no such a thing as looking either at the cb or ob! First, when alining and aiming I'm looking at the cb to see when I want to stike it, than I look at the ob to align it with the pocket I'm aiming at. I do this back and forth 2 or 3 times. Amount of time beetween switching your eyes from cb to ob is determined by how quickly your warm up stokre is. In perfect world it would look like this:
1- on your backswing you are looking at the ob
2- when your cue tip is on the cb you are looking at the cb
When am ready I do a little pause and I strike looking at the ob. Its all process of good technique and fundamentals and there is no way you can separate it.

 

[pete lafond]

In pool there is no such a thing as looking either at the cb or ob! First, when alining and aiming I'm looking at the cb to see when I want to stike it, than I look at the ob to align it with the pocket I'm aiming at. I do this back and forth 2 or 3 times. Amount of time beetween switching your eyes from cb to ob is determined by how quickly your warm up stokre is. In perfect world it would look like this:
1- on your backswing you are looking at the ob
2- when your cue tip is on the cb you are looking at the cb
When am ready I do a little pause and I strike looking at the ob. Its all process of good technique and fundamentals and there is no way you can separate it.

You are 100% correct. There is an order of events that takes place;
1. we align our shot while standing
2. we decide position or objective of our after-shot (were the CB needs to travel)
3. We align our shot again
4. we get down on our shot and bridge based on our alignment as we get down.
5. we look at the CB then the OB (in what ever order and as often as needed) to make sure we are hitting the CB as we want to. We make sure our line from the CB to were it should make contact is lined up considering any English we need to use and the impact of that English. Up to this point some are stroking their cue to remain loose
6. This is were the controversy exists, we are ready to pull the trigger.
...a) some like to focus on the CB,
...b) some let their eyes follow the CB
...c) and others (like myself) lock-in on the target which can be the ghost ball or a specific point on the object ball.

To me none make sense except for c) and in every sport we lock-in and focus on something when we execute. In pool I believe it is either the ghost ball (which I do not use) or a point of contact on the OB (which I do use).

I would be hard pressed to use the a) method and definitely not on long cut shots. I could practice this for 20 hours a day and I would guarantee I would never achieve any potting ability and would drop considerably in play. This does not meet what I consider as an intuitive approach. But I guess some do.

On the other hand b) is far removed from anything I would even consider remotely do-able as this defies any sports intuition to me. But if some do it, that's fine.

 

[BAZARUS]

You are 100% correct. There is an order of events that takes place;
1. we align our shot while standing
2. we decide position or objective of our after-shot (were the CB needs to travel)
3. We align our shot again
4. we get down on our shot and bridge based on our alignment as we get down.
5. we look at the CB then the OB (in what ever order and as often as needed) to make sure we are hitting the CB as we want to. We make sure our line from the CB to were it should make contact is lined up considering any English we need to use and the impact of that English. Up to this point some are stroking their cue to remain loose
6. This is were the controversy exists, we are ready to pull the trigger.
...a) some like to focus on the CB,
...b) some let their eyes follow the CB
...c) and others (like myself) lock-in on the target which can be the ghost ball or a specific point on the object ball.

To me none make sense except for c) and in every sport we lock-in and focus on something when we execute. In pool I believe it is either the ghost ball (which I do not use) or a point of contact on the OB (which I do use).

I would be hard pressed to use the a) method and definitely not on long cut shots. I could practice this for 20 hours a day and I would guarantee I would never achieve any potting ability and would drop considerably in play. This does not meet what I consider as an intuitive approach. But I guess some do.

On the other hand b) is far removed from anything I would even consider remotely do-able as this defies any sports intuition to me. But if some do it, that's fine.

I saw several people was giving an example of driving a car or other mobil vehicle. There is no point on spectulating wats the correct way to do it. If you want to learn how to drive a car you go to school. Then when you are a advanced driver you can alter the way you drive. As a matter of fact only few people keeps their hands on 10 and 2 oclock as they were told in school. The same thing apply to pool. You need to learn what is the correct way to do things. Than you can change something due to your body constraction or other factors. Someone also mentioned that woman are more mechanical that man. You need to become a mechanical first before you can become a finesse player. Thats why man are generally better than woman. Their mechanics are perfect at some point and from there they can do some modifications on their own.

 

[pete lafond]

I saw several people was giving an example of driving a car or other mobil vehicle. There is no point on spectulating wats the correct way to do it. If you want to learn how to drive a car you go to school. Then when you are a advanced driver you can alter the way you drive. As a matter of fact only few people keeps their hands on 10 and 2 oclock as they were told in school. The same thing apply to pool. You need to learn what is the correct way to do things. Than you can change something due to your body constraction or other factors. Someone also mentioned that woman are more mechanical that man. You need to become a mechanical first before you can become a finesse player. Thats why man are generally better than woman. Their mechanics are perfect at some point and from there they can do some modifications on their own.

Yes, I brought up these points for different reasons.

The one about driving a car was meant to show how much straighter you can drive if you look at a point out far enough, whereas driving while looking at the road directly in front of you will be more difficult. Same with pool, focusing to a distant OB is going to cause a straighter stroke than a near CB.

It really does not matter what players choose to do, I only recomend to players that ask how I think it should be done. Also, I jump in once in a while when I see a thread and throw my 2 cents in.

I think many believe that the CB is the Object of focus, and I believe that the CB instead is an extention to your cue stick. Does not mean that you do not look at it to make sure all is correct, just means that when you pull the trigger the player should be locked-in on the OB.

Someone mentioned about hitting a baseball. The batter first pays attention to the pitchers body, then his arm, then hand and then locks in on the baseball and see it clearly. In each sport, players decide through intuition what is their advantage and then that becomes their system.

The best approach is to ask the top 15 pros what they do, publish it and then let the players choose what is best for them. This stuff would be great reading material.
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[pete lafond]

...

Of course if you want to play by feel and aren't at the level or don't have a system for consistently getting the proper aimline, then you may need to watch the OB last until you can get the proper alignment consistently, but ultimately, you will want to be able to look at the CB last.

Players must play with feel as "Feel" is a key ingredient, though "Feel" is not an aiming technique. "Feel" is important in stroke, finesse and position play.

I remember in this forum where some players did not admit to a system and use "Feel" exclusively. In reality I would doubt they aimed that way rather they were un-aware of the system they used because it was engraved in their play. This came out later.

 

[Jaden]

yes feel is necesary.

Players must play with feel as "Feel" is a key ingredient, though "Feel" is not an aiming technique. "Feel" is important in stroke, finesse and position play.

I remember in this forum where some players did not admit to a system and use "Feel" exclusively. In reality I would doubt they aimed that way rather they were un-aware of the system they used because it was engraved in their play. This came out later.

Feel is necesary but only in speed control, I was referring to players who like to be unaware of the system they are subconsciously using in aiming etc... all of the things that feel is unnecesary in. What I was referring to in context was that if a player plays by feel then they will not have a dedicated aimline from when they get into their stance and may have to swipe or do last moment adjustments in their strokes to help adjust for misaligned aiming. In this case it would be better to look at the OB last because they are using feel to make those last minute adjustments and looking at the CB last would prevent them from making those adjustments.

So what I was saying is that for people who aren't sure of their aimlines being accurate then watching the OB last would be better, but for those who are using a system that gives them accurate aimlines from the start watching the CB last would be better. Ultimately you should be able to look anywhere and still make the shot, or close your eyes or whatever, but for the best consistency for the player who is sure of their aimline you should watch the CB as you stroke through it and then follow the CB with your eyes as it rolls away from you, just like in Golf.

 

[pete lafond]

Feel is necesary but only in speed control, I was referring to players who like to be unaware of the system they are subconsciously using in aiming etc... all of the things that feel is unnecesary in. What I was referring to in context was that if a player plays by feel then they will not have a dedicated aimline from when they get into their stance and may have to swipe or do last moment adjustments in their strokes to help adjust for misaligned aiming. In this case it would be better to look at the OB last because they are using feel to make those last minute adjustments and looking at the CB last would prevent them from making those adjustments.

So what I was saying is that for people who aren't sure of their aimlines being accurate then watching the OB last would be better, but for those who are using a system that gives them accurate aimlines from the start watching the CB last would be better. Ultimately you should be able to look anywhere and still make the shot, or close your eyes or whatever, but for the best consistency for the player who is sure of their aimline you should watch the CB as you stroke through it and then follow the CB with your eyes as it rolls away from you, just like in Golf.

I do believe that all pool players, even beginners, are sure of their aimlines with some system or other they use. If a system is better for your consistancy then by all means, go for it. In golf I do keep my eyes locked-in to the back of the ball, and my eyes do not follow the ball at all once it moves. In fact I have to search for it in flight after the shot, or putt. Given both sports that we do things differently, I guess this demonstrates that players can have their own systems that serve them individiually well.

 

[Cornerman]

Then someone please explain go me why McCready plays much better on a bar table. Hint: it is because he looks at the CB last.

Keith McCready's bar table prowess doesn't diminish his big table prowess. Being able to play well on bar tables is about moving and patterns, not on looking at the CB last.

Keith, Earl, and Scott Lee do not shoot long shots well.

Earl Strickland, possibly the greatest shotmaker of all time, and you think he doesn't shoot long shots well? You really don't have any idea about this game, do you?

Fred

 

[Cornerman]

Can't believe I'm rewriting this in magenta

Mosconi didn't shoot long shots well either.

Has McCready ever won a major event on a big table? His prowess indeed is diminished on a big table.

Are you kidding me??? McCready has won several major events on big tables. Have you been living under a rock? You really are that ill-informed by others, and by no fault of your own, aren't you?

Among other titles, Keith McCready won the BC Open in 1985 winning $25,000. That was one of the highest payout of all time at the time. The BC Open was one of the most prestigious titles of the "tour" at the time. But, I don't expect you to know anything about that, since you didn't assert your position so boldly. Or did you?

He's also won Terry Stonier's World 9-ball Championship. What could possess you to even think that Keith's skills are somehow diminished on a big table?

Keith, please, tell us your 9' table titles for this innocent poster who always has such informative and right on the money posts, that are only 180° from reality.

Fred

 

[JoeyInCali]

Mosconi didn't shoot long shots well either.

Has McCready ever won a major event on a big table? His prowess indeed is diminished on a big table.

u kidding.
I once saw Parica propose Keith a spot shot COMBINATION.
Keith grabbed a stick and told Jose it was too easy.
Keith two stroked the cueball and fired at it.
Split the 4 1/4" Hard Times corner pocket.
How can Keith play world class one hole on HT table if he wun't too good at the big table?