FOR SALE: Gorgeous Wrapless TITLIST Big Pin Hoppe TAD Pool Cue

cornerstone said:
i dont know i think i own the pfd -huebler and horn belt!and i think i lucked out and was given the bushka belt ! Inside joke, i think i wll soon have the matched pair of gina belts!
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Yeah you were lucky there like Efren's lucky.

Is that pfd, huebler, horn Heavyweight Championship Belt one belt or three separate belts?

I have the Highest eBay Cue belt (well I co-hold it with the buyer) and maybe that's about it right now.

Kevin
 
cornerstone said:
i dont know i think i own the pfd -huebler and horn belt!and i think i lucked out and was given the bushka belt ! Inside joke, i think i wll soon have the matched pair of gina belts!
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ya Bil, I heard through the grapevine!! Nice buys.

Still looking for a Prewitt Sneaky?? :D
 
I just got a message from forum member mamono, a great guy who knows his Tads.

He informed me that although this cue's blank was not made by Brunswick, it was made 40 years ago (please don't take that to mean this cue is that old, it is not). He went on to explain that Tad and Fred won't make wrapless cues anymore because,considering their finish process, it's too much work. I guess that explains why I have only seen one other wrapless Tad.

Anyway, now you know what I know.

Thanks

Kevin
 
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kvinbrwr said:
I've had several people tell me their version of what qualifies to be called a Titlist. Tate and I were on the phone and I will tell you, his version is quite different from yours, and I think that's the point. Everybody had a different interpretation of "Titlist". Tad called it what I call it and, well, that's good enough for me.

As far as people asking me is that a "real" Titlist, really I'm far more interested in getting the information my buyer desires out to my buyer than telling by buyer how to think. In order to to that I really need to know what he means by Titlist. and as I have found out, it mean vastly different things to different people. Thus when people ask, I ask them what they mean.

This cue is clearly not made from a blank manufactured by Brunswick, or converted from a cue made by Brunswick up to the late 1960s. I'm sorry to the purists, but how I can say this with conviction (and as Tad pointed out to me) the quality of the blank is way too high for that. Brunswick outsourced Titlist after 1970 to a series of companies and may have sold the copyright to the name subsequent to that. I judge this cue to be "about" 7 years old (there has never been a driver in that butt screw and I won't be the first), to say that that means the blank Tad used was also 7 years old is to misunderstand the way Tad works. I will guarantee that blank he used was not 50 years old. I would say its a safe bet that this blank was manufactured in Japan, Tad (for some reason) is very high on the quality of the Japanese product.

Thanks again

Kevin
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Kevin there was a time when even YOU knew the difference between a "Tiltist" and a "Titlist Tribute":

02-08-2010, 07:33 PM

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Quote:
Originally Posted by mamono
Beautiful cue! Interesting that the veneers look like Titlist colors.

Could be Tad doing a "tribute" to the original Hoppes.

Thanks

Kevin

Where you a "purist" then? What has changed now? Having been a Titlist collector for over 40 years, I have wondered just how many Titlist conversions have been made with NON-Titlist blanks. Yet builders and dealers misrepresent them by calling them "Titlists" and not "Titlist tributes". Especially since they seem to be coming out of the woodwork lately. For example, in your Ebay ad, no where do you mention the word "Tribute". So I guess you have answered my question by redefining the label "Titlist" to include blanks made in Japan. Will you also redefine "Balabushka"...since the blanks are also made in Japan...quite possible by the same company that made the Titlist blanks? j/s
 
cfrandy said:
Kevin there was a time when even YOU knew the difference between a "Tiltist" and a "Titlist Tribute":

02-08-2010, 07:33 PM

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Quote:
Originally Posted by mamono
Beautiful cue! Interesting that the veneers look like Titlist colors.

Could be Tad doing a "tribute" to the original Hoppes.

Thanks

Kevin

Where you a "purist" then? What has changed now? Having been a Titlist collector for over 40 years, I have wondered just how many Titlist conversions have been made with NON-Titlist blanks. Yet builders and dealers misrepresent them by calling them "Titlists" and not "Titlist tributes". Especially since they seem to be coming out of the woodwork lately. For example, in your Ebay ad, no where do you mention the word "Tribute". So I guess you have answered my question by redefining the label "Titlist" to include blanks made in Japan. Will you also redefine "Balabushka"...since the blanks are also made in Japan...quite possible by the same company that made the Titlist blanks? j/s
Click to expand...

Yikes ! I called it a "modern" Titlist, are you saying that I should have said "tribute" ?

Please, don't nit pick me over word choice in my for sale thread all because you have some vendetta, its completely unfair to me. When I wrote the ad I had zero belief that anybody that would bid over $100 dollars would have any expectation that this blank was built by Brunswick prior to 1970 and I have been super clear about that with anybody that asked. What I didn't know was whether the blank was built under license or was outsourced by Brunswick (which I understand they did with several companies) and I still don't. When I wrote the ad I was under the impression the blank was maybe 10 years old (thus "modern") as I'm learning now its much older than that (although the cue isn't).

I'm sorry but this charge of "misrepresentation" escapes me. Do you (for example) have no contention with me referring to the butt (as EVERYBODY does) as a "Hoppe" ? Please if you have a personal axe to grind take it up in PMs (or with someone else). It sounds as though this cue is not for you, and I can live with that.

Thanks

Kevin
 
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cornerstone said:
yes! package deal
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You and Russ working a side cue deal in my for sale thread!!!!?????!!!

I'm calling Mr Wilson!

Thanks

Kevin

That will cost you guys 10% (or a cube of Kamui whichever is greater).
 
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Having hit with TAD cues made with these blanks, I can attest that they play exceptionally well. So well, that I plan to take one to the grave with me.

From what Fred had told me, TAD had made a few cues using these blanks in the late 1960's, roughly 10~15 cues. All the blanks were then set aside for 30 years. These blanks were pulled from storage where TAD/Fred began using them again in very limited number beginning in 2003. I do not have an accurate number of how many were used, but there weren't very many.

Best I can describe the hit is... if you're used to a TAD hit, think a little stiffer and a little more feedback through the handle, IMHO.


In addition:
The blanks are very high quality, note that the lower points are sharp. Keep in mind, these blanks are over 40+ years old. TAD was disappointed with the quality of titlist blanks in the 1960's and was looking for alternatives. This was one of those alternatives, prior to TAD building his own blanks.
 
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kvinbrwr said:
Yikes ! I called it a "modern" Titlist, are you saying that I should have said "tribute" ?

Please, don't nit pick me over word choice in my for sale thread all because you have some vendetta, its completely unfair to me. When I wrote the ad I had zero belief that anybody that would bid over $100 dollars would have any expectation that this blank was built by Brunswick prior to 1970 and I have been super clear about that with anybody that asked. What I didn't know was whether the blank was built under license or was outsourced by Brunswick (which I understand they did with several companies) and I still don't. When I wrote the ad I was under the impression the blank was maybe 10 years old (thus "modern") as I'm learning now its much older than that (although the cue isn't).

I'm sorry but this charge of "misrepresentation" escapes me. Do you (for example) have no contention with me referring to the butt (as EVERYBODY does) as a "Hoppe" ? Please if you have a personal axe to grind take it up in PMs (or with someone else). It sounds as though this cue is not for you, and I can live with that.

Thanks

Kevin
Click to expand...

Kevin I do NOT have a vendetta or axe to grind with you! I am actually sorry to see that you have resorted to such dubious selling practices. You used to be one of the most respected sellers here. However, please read this entire thread (as I did). You refer to the cue being a "modern" Titlist...now you say it is not! You say it is much older than you thought. You also admit elsewhere in this thread that the cue IS a Tribute...now you say you are learning it may not be. However, the obvious flip/flop is when you said previously "I would say its a safe bet that this blank was manufactured in Japan". No where in your ad do you mention this. It doesn't matter if the Titlist blank was built under license or outsourced...it still would NOT be a Titlist. It would be a Titlist tribute. I remember when I was selling a "Brunswick Personal Cue" here on AZ. I had at least 20 people tell me it was NOT a Brunswick Titlist because it was made by Schmelke and NOT Brunswick (even though Schmelke had the license to build the cue). I don't understand why the same people are not writing YOU, telling you a Titlist blank made by a company in Japan is NOT a Titlist Cue. BUT then who knows...you keep changing the story about how old it is and where the blank was made. Could it also have been made in China? Afterall, according to a search of the US Customs database regarding imports from China TAD cues comes up twice. Fair? Let me ask you this, Richard Helmstetter, with the Balabushka Family, owns the license to Balabushka trademark. He outsourced the construction to the Miki company just as Brunswick did. Just to be fair, we will now call these Balabushkas and not Balabushka tributes. Or, at least I guess until you put one up for sale!
BTW, I did NOT charge you with misrepresentation! I charged you with redefining the word "Titlist" (to suit you own means). Afterall, it is so obvious...last year you called these tributes...now you call them "modern titlists" (or are changing the words again). Whose nik picking words?
I guess it's the sign of a bad economy...anything goes!
 
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cfrandy said:
Kevin I do NOT have a vendetta or axe to grind with you! I am actually sorry to see that you have resorted to such dubious selling practices. You used to be one of the most respected sellers here. However, please read this entire thread (as I did). You refer to the cue being a "modern" Titlist...now you say it is not! You say it is much older than you thought. You also admit elsewhere in this thread that the cue IS a Tribute...now you say you are learning it may not be. However, the obvious flip/flop is when you said previously "I would say its a safe bet that this blank was manufactured in Japan". No where in your ad do you mention this. It doesn't matter if the Titlist blank was built under license or outsourced...it still would NOT be a Titlist. It would be a Titlist tribute. I remember when I was selling a "Brunswick Personal Cue" here on AZ. I had at least 20 people tell me it was NOT a Brunswick Titlist because it was made by Schmelke and NOT Brunswick (even though Schmelke had the license to build the cue). I don't understand why the same people are not writing YOU, telling you a Titlist blank made by a company in Japan is NOT a Titlist Cue. BUT then who knows...you keep changing the story about how old it is and where the blank was made. Could it also have been made in China? Afterall, according to a search of the US Customs database regarding imports from China TAD cues comes up twice. Fair? Let me ask you this, Richard Helmstetter, with the Balabushka Family, owns the license to Balabushka trademark. He outsourced the construction to the Miki company just as Brunswick did. Just to be fair, we will now call these Balabushkas and not Balabushka tributes. Or, at least I guess until you put one up for sale!
BTW, I did NOT charge you with misrepresentation! I charged you with redefining the word "Titlist" (to suit you own means). Afterall, it is so obvious...last year you called these tributes...now you call them "modern titlists" (or are changing the words again). Whose nik picking words?
I guess it's the sign of a bad economy...anything goes!
Click to expand...

Yeah that flip-flopping is actually learning as I go, but I'm glad you feel you can see into my mind, and I'm sorry to have lost your respect.

Could you go away now ?

Thanks

Kevin
 
mamono said:
Having hit with TAD cues made with these blanks, I can attest that they play exceptionally well. So well, that I plan to take one to the grave with me.

From what Fred had told me, TAD had made a few cues using these blanks in the late 1960's, roughly 10~15 cues. All the blanks were then set aside for 30 years. These blanks were pulled from storage where TAD/Fred began using them again in very limited number beginning in 2003. I do not have an accurate number of how many were used, but there weren't very many.

Best I can describe the hit is... if you're used to a TAD hit, think a little stiffer and a little more feedback through the handle, IMHO.


In addition:
The blanks are very high quality, note that the lower points are sharps. Keep in mind, these blanks are over 40+ years old. TAD was disappointed with the quality of titlist blanks in the 1960's and was looking for alternatives. This was one of those alternatives, prior to TAD building his own blanks.
Click to expand...

mamono

Thanks so much. Every time you post, I know more about the Tad product than I did before. I know the cues were built 5 - 7 years ago (I haven't had the bumpers off) because the guy who originally commissioned them from Tad sold them to me. I had assumed the blank to be newer than it is.

You are right about the quality, completely top-notch with beautifully chosen woods. And for guys who like wrapless, a pretty rare opportunity in a Tad.

Thanks again, hearing from you is always a learning experience.

Kevin
 
mamono said:
Having hit with TAD cues made with these blanks, I can attest that they play exceptionally well. So well, that I plan to take one to the grave with me.

From what Fred had told me, TAD had made a few cues using these blanks in the late 1960's, roughly 10~15 cues. All the blanks were then set aside for 30 years. These blanks were pulled from storage where TAD/Fred began using them again in very limited number beginning in 2003. I do not have an accurate number of how many were used, but there weren't very many.

Best I can describe the hit is... if you're used to a TAD hit, think a little stiffer and a little more feedback through the handle, IMHO.


In addition:
The blanks are very high quality, note that the lower points are sharp. Keep in mind, these blanks are over 40+ years old. TAD was disappointed with the quality of titlist blanks in the 1960's and was looking for alternatives. This was one of those alternatives, prior to TAD building his own blanks.
Click to expand...

mamono

And please, if you should reach that grave before I do, consider giving me any Tad cue rather than taking it with you as a going away present (and also let that decision be way way way down the road).

Thanks

Kevin
 
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cfrandy said:
Kevin I do NOT have a vendetta or axe to grind with you! I am actually sorry to see that you have resorted to such dubious selling practices. You used to be one of the most respected sellers here. However, please read this entire thread (as I did). You refer to the cue being a "modern" Titlist...now you say it is not! You say it is much older than you thought. You also admit elsewhere in this thread that the cue IS a Tribute...now you say you are learning it may not be. However, the obvious flip/flop is when you said previously "I would say its a safe bet that this blank was manufactured in Japan". No where in your ad do you mention this. It doesn't matter if the Titlist blank was built under license or outsourced...it still would NOT be a Titlist. It would be a Titlist tribute. I remember when I was selling a "Brunswick Personal Cue" here on AZ. I had at least 20 people tell me it was NOT a Brunswick Titlist because it was made by Schmelke and NOT Brunswick (even though Schmelke had the license to build the cue). I don't understand why the same people are not writing YOU, telling you a Titlist blank made by a company in Japan is NOT a Titlist Cue. BUT then who knows...you keep changing the story about how old it is and where the blank was made. Could it also have been made in China? Afterall, according to a search of the US Customs database regarding imports from China TAD cues comes up twice. Fair? Let me ask you this, Richard Helmstetter, with the Balabushka Family, owns the license to Balabushka trademark. He outsourced the construction to the Miki company just as Brunswick did. Just to be fair, we will now call these Balabushkas and not Balabushka tributes. Or, at least I guess until you put one up for sale!
BTW, I did NOT charge you with misrepresentation! I charged you with redefining the word "Titlist" (to suit you own means). Afterall, it is so obvious...last year you called these tributes...now you call them "modern titlists" (or are changing the words again). Whose nik picking words?
I guess it's the sign of a bad economy...anything goes!
Click to expand...


I realize this is a heated argument, but Kevin tried to do the best he could with the information he had. Kevin was told by Tad the blanks were from Japan. Kevin had assumed they were imported when the cue was made.

When I saw the cue, it was me who told him it looked like an Adam built Titlist blank. The reason was because the veneers were a little more vibrant than the typical Titlist and the handle side veneers were mitered to a perfectly sharp finish, something Brunswick had gotten away from in the 1960's - they were slightly blunt. Usually these Adam built Titlists have exotic wood handles, rosewood or macassar are pretty common.

I had assumed that Kevin knew the Titlist and Willie Hoppe pro were outsourced to Adam in Japan during the 1970's when Brunswick stopped production, and that this blank was likely from that era. I didn't realize th was under the impression (probably erroneously) the the blank was built when the cue was made - which I never considered possible because Adam had stopped using the full splice long ago and they would have had to drag out some old jigs and have a lot of set up and practice cuts to do this.

The point is, if this is a blank from the Adam Titlists, and it almost certainly is, then it's not a tribute blank - they are technically still Titlists - the finished cues had the decals and signatures etc - but they were made by Adam for sale through Brunswick dealers.

I've seen a number of Titlist conversions that I believed to be from these same blanks. I've seen the blanks for sale as well and they are different from a true Titlist blank - they are turned down to near finished size, almost like a finished Titlist without the decal and imprint. I've also seen a number of conversions I thought might be from these blanks - it's very difficult to tell them apart from the Brunswick made Titlists.

So, if this is the case, they are not actually "tributes" - they are just the Japanese Titlist blanks.

FYI I asked John Davis if he could tell the difference between an Adam blank and a Spain blank - or one he built during the same era. He said "no, because they're built the same way". The original U.S. made Titlists are not far off - thank goodness for the colors. There are very small finishing differences in the veneer techniques used.

For me, Palmer's are much easier to figure out because they converted old Titlists at first, then bought Titlist blanks directly from Brunswick in the 1960's, then stopped using them when they were no longer available.

Hope this clears up my take on this cue.

Chris
 
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TATE said:
I realize this is a heated argument, but Kevin tried to do the best he could with the information he had. Kevin was told by Tad the blanks were from Japan. Kevin had assumed they were imported when the cue was made.

When I saw the cue, it was me who told him it looked like an Adam built Titlist blank. The reason was because the veneers were a little more vibrant than the typical Titlist and the handle side veneers were mitered to a perfectly sharp finish, something Brunswick had gotten away from in the 1960's - they were slightly blunt. Usually these Adam built Titlists have exotic wood handles, rosewood or macassar are pretty common.

I had assumed that Kevin knew the Titlist and Willie Hoppe pro were outsourced to Adam in Japan during the 1970's when Brunswick stopped production, and that this blank was likely from that era. I didn't realize th was under the impression (probably erroneously) the the blank was built when the cue was made - which I never considered possible because Adam had stopped using the full splice long ago and they would have had to drag out some old jigs and have a lot of set up and practice cuts to do this.

The point is, if this is a blank from the Adam Titlists, and it almost certainly is, then it's not a tribute blank - they are technically still Titlists - the finished cues had the decals and signatures etc - but they were made by Adam for sale through Brunswick dealers.

I've seen a number of Titlist conversions that I believed to be from these same blanks. I've seen the blanks for sale as well and they are different from a true Titlist blank - they are turned down to near finished size, almost like a finished Titlist without the decal and imprint. I've also seen a number of conversions I thought might be from these blanks - it's very difficult to tell them apart from the Brunswick made Titlists.

So, if this is the case, they are not actually "tributes" - they are just the Japanese Titlist blanks.

FYI I asked John Davis if he could tell the difference between an Adam blank and a Spain blank - or one he built during the same era. He said "no, because they're built the same way". The original U.S. made Titlists are not far off - thank goodness for the colors. There are very small finishing differences in the veneer techniques used.

For me, Palmer's are much easier to figure out because they converted old Titlists at first, then bought Titlist blanks directly from Brunswick in the 1960's, then stopped using them when they were no longer available.

Hope this clears up my take on this cue.

Chris
Click to expand...

Thanks Chris.

Kevin
 
Wow, I don't think I've ever had THAT happen before. I've had cues end at far higher at auction then I offered them to AZ for, but mostly I've had them end just a little higher, a few times a little lower. This one ended exactly one dollar higher than what I offered to sell this cue for before the auction.

The high bidder is a company that buys eBay items for Japanese clients from American eBay sellers that won't ship Internationally (like me). A decent business, 3 of the 5 auctions I had this week were won by Japanese reshippers.

Thanks for your interest and on to the next:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=270773223888

Kevin
 
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