Force Follow - for lack of better word

Buster8001

Buster8001

Did you say shrubberies?
Silver Member
First, let me say I did a search on "follow" and "force follow" but honestly couldn't find anything useful. Though, I didn't look that hard.:sorry:

I am having some trouble with long/hard follow shots for my position play. I can leave myself a good draw and execute the shot, but I like follow more for most position shots. The problem is, I draw better than I follow. When I need to execute a long or hard force follow I don't seem to get near the action. I have heard it takes the same stroke as draw, but for some reason it isn't working for me. I know I am the problem - the first step is admitting right? So can y'all give me a run down on long/force follow.

Thanks.

Josh
 
If, by force follow, you are talking about putting overspin on the cue ball, it is extremely difficult to get it to hold for any distance. Natural roll will always produce follow, so it becomes a matter of simple speed control. The problem with overspin is that it is almost always lost upon contact with the ob, so you end up with natural roll more often than not anyway. With higher speed, you will increase your follow distance.
Steve
 
pooltchr said:
If, by force follow, you are talking about putting overspin on the cue ball, it is extremely difficult to get it to hold for any distance. Natural roll will always produce follow, so it becomes a matter of simple speed control. The problem with overspin is that it is almost always lost upon contact with the ob, so you end up with natural roll more often than not anyway. With higher speed, you will increase your follow distance.
Steve
Click to expand...


This is very true you lose alot of spin upon contact, if you are going off rails too tho after ob contact, you can add the desired side spin to the ball say your swinging to the left the high left is hit and upon contact with the rail the side spin takes you there. Definitely have someone watch your stroke tho. I'm sure you can have a much more level stroke than you already do without even seeing you. That is the biggest key, the more level your stroke the less you have to poke. And learn your cue ball, you can probably get much further out on the edge without miscueing, with some pratice. I hope that helps.

For a better game,
Grey Ghost

Oh dont forget that same snap that creates your draw thats how your going to follow also.
 
GG...Good point. Top and bottom spin determine what the cue ball does after it hits the object ball. Side spin determines what the cue ball does after it contacts the cushion.

Steve
 
Hard to help with out seeing your problem. Can you do a quick video on you- tube? SPF=randyg
 
Wow... my 5000th post!

:rolleyes:

The trick that I use is to stay in the area that I call "the core" of the cue ball.

It' one thing to hit it up top at 12 O'clock, but you will get a completely different result if you create a smaller circle in the center of the cue ball, and snap the follow from there. This applies the energy of your stroke to the core of the cue ball, not the outer edge.

The ball does not spin on it's outer edge, its spins at the bottom axis of what I call its "core".

Here is a video where I do a few draw and follow stroke shots -

Stroke Shots

Notice on the first draw shot (at 00:10).
I am not hitting the ball all the way at the bottom - I am basically in the center of the ball, and applying the draw stroke about half a tip below the ball's equator...

On the second draw shot (at 00:19) you can really see how I get a lot more action by going through the ball - and watch the cue ball go to the bottom rail where the juice takes over. You get that type of action by staying in the center (the core) and transferring the energy through your stroke, then through your cue, then through the cue ball.

On the first follow shot , (at 00:27) I stroke the cue ball higher (outside the smaller circle/ core circle) and the cue ball does not get as much action.

On the second follow shot, (at 00:37) I am hitting center ball - but within a smaller circle, and above center within that smaller circle. Imagine shooting with a striped a ball, and limiting your tip to the small circle that houses the ball's number.

Watch how the shaft of my cue is still going forward even after the object ball has been pocketed. You can also see that on the the next shot (side pocket force follow at 00:45)

On all of the shots, my tip is making contact within that smaller imaginary circle within the cue ball (with the exception of the power draw shot at 01:23).

Practice staying with the core of the ball, and stroking through the shot. I think you will amazed at how much you can increase the power of these shots by doing so.

(and for those that care - I am using a finger tip grip)
 
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Don't know what you're doing but I had the same problem for awhile. My problem was I was dropping my cue tip prior to impact resulting in a center ball hit.

What I did to solve it was shorten my bridge and put all of my focus on the cue ball and not the object ball problem solved.

Cue ball focus was a short term solution and now I'm back to object ball focus.

The other mistake is usually the harder you try to stroke the shot the more likely you'll kill it off the first rail.

Shorten bridge, focus on cue ball hit and make sure you follow through.
 
Well I'm no physics professor, so the words I'm about to use come from my perception of what happens with force follow.

First, and generically speaking, I envision two kinds of force being applied to a cue ball when you hit it.

1. forward momentum

2. rotational momentum

When a cue ball is stroked below center it carries both forces as it does when it stroked above center.

When the cue ball is stroked in the center, it carries with it only forward momemtum as it is sliding to the object ball and carries no rotational momentum. ( of course if the slide decays away before contacting the OB, then the CB will pick up rotational momentum also.

IMO while it is true that a cue ball hit with draw spins backward toward the OB unnatural to its forward momentum, when it cue ball is struck with follow, it does not carry rotational momentum beyond a 1 to 1 ratio of forward roll on its way to the OB beyond anything but a very short distance, if at all.

The thing is, it doesn't need to in order to display the force follow characteristics we are familiar with seeing after contact with the OB.

When a CB contacts an OB head on, all of its forward momentum is lost to the OB and the ONLY thing remaining is the rotational momentum.

This is why the CB stops dead, and then what appears to be "overspin" is displayed before the CB continues forward. The overspin is actually that 1 to 1 ratio of spin to forward roll, but it is seen by our eyes without any of the forward momentum that normally goes with it.

So a smooth level (parallel to the table surface) and firm hit on the CB will result in the speed needed to maintain the rotational momentum after it contacts the OB once the forward momentum is transferred to the OB.

When you line your shot up, try stopping your practice stroking with the cue tip at the cue ball. Remain in this stopped position and double check your line of aim. If it is correct, then envision an imaginary line that extends from the butt end of your cue all the way past the cue tip and all the way to the OB.

When you stroke that level, above center stroke to the cue ball, see your cue stick covering that imaginary line you envisioned and stroke through, level firm and smooth.

edit ... I believe knowing that you are not required to impart any kind of magical super overspin to your force follow shots beyond a smooth above center and level hit will help you gain the confidence you need to make the shot work.
 
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3andstop said:
Well I'm no physics professor, so the words I'm about to use come from my perception of what happens with force follow.

First, and generically speaking, I envision two kinds of force being applied to a cue ball when you hit it.

1. forward momentum

2. rotational momentum

When a cue ball is stroked below center it carries both forces as it does when it stroked above center.

When the cue ball is stroked in the center, it carries with it only forward momemtum as it is sliding to the object ball and carries no rotational momentum. ( of course if the slide decays away before contacting the OB, then the CB will pick up rotational momentum also.

IMO while it is true that a cue ball hit with draw spins backward toward the OB unnatural to its forward momentum, when it cue ball is struck with follow, it does not carry rotational momentum beyond a 1 to 1 ratio of forward roll on its way to the OB beyond anything but a very short distance, if at all.

The thing is, it doesn't need to in order to display the force follow characteristics we are familiar with seeing after contact with the OB.

When a CB contacts an OB head on, all of its forward momentum is lost to the OB and the ONLY thing remaining is the rotational momentum.

This is why the CB stops dead, and then what appears to be "overspin" is displayed before the CB continues forward. The overspin is actually that 1 to 1 ratio of spin to forward roll, but it is seen by our eyes without any of the forward momentum that normally goes with it.

So a smooth level (parallel to the table surface) and firm hit on the CB will result in the speed needed to maintain the rotational momentum after it contacts the OB once the forward momentum is transferred to the OB.

When you line your shot up, try stopping your practice stroking with the cue tip at the cue ball. Remain in this stopped position and double check your line of aim. If it is correct, then envision an imaginary line that extends from the butt end of your cue all the way past the cue tip and all the way to the OB.

When you stroke that level, above center stroke to the cue ball, see your cue stick covering that imaginary line you envisioned and stroke through, level firm and smooth.

edit ... I believe knowing that you are not required to impart any kind of magical super overspin to your force follow shots beyond a smooth above center and level hit will help you gain the confidence you need to make the shot work.
Click to expand...

I think you summed it up very well.
Good Job!
Steve
 
Thanks to all that have posted. I'll hit ya with some rep for the help.

I am going to try and upload a vid to youtube, but I don't have a digital recorder so I'll have to use my vid function on my digital camera. If the quality is good enough I'll post.

I going to try the suggestions tonight during practice time and see what shakes out. Thanks again everyone.

Josh
 
Force follow doesn't do you much good if you can't make the shot. I learned to make this shot accurately by shooting it over and over at a long distance, missing it many times, and memorizing the amount of error for various speeds. Then, I simply learned to put some 'Kentucky windage' on my shots. In other words, I aim "inaccurately" at the object ball and pocket. So, if you know you almost always miss the pocket to the right, aim further left than normal when you want to use force follow. You will be amazed at how hard you can hit the ball with speed and make it 8 out of 10 times, even at half to three quarter table length. Like everything else though, it takes lots of practice.
 
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