Four reasons bar leagues have been pool's ankle weights

[mikepage]

and what to do about it.

National pool associations are quick to point out that pool is among the top participation sports, and yet as we all know most of these participants cannot name the top players in their city nor can they name professional players.

Why is this?

Most young, single professionals getting their first jobs out of college don't go out and play pool, even though it has all the makings of a great active social activity that can be done all year round, is relatively inexpensive, and can be a great way to meet people.

Why is this?

Few women play.

Why is this?

I think we have been sucked in and allowed this to happen by allowing VENDING COMPANIES to take over the nurturing, the promotion, the day-to-day operation, and the vision of our sport.

So why is that a problem?

Most of that large number of pool participants play on a coin-operated table owned and operated by a vending company, a company that also leases juke boxes, dart systems, and video machines to taverns. Here are four reasons we should have taken control and done something about this a long time ago.

(1) Casual pool players don't see good pool players because good pool players for the most part play in a pool room rather than a bar and scoff at bar tables with slow cloth and heavy cueballs. That makes that hoard of casual participants at pool different from the hoard of casual participants at golf or bowling or tennis or skiing, for examples, who do play along side of good players on the same equipment. The consequence is at these other activities there's a smooth and easy transition between being a casual participant and being a somewhat more serious participant.

(2) Only about 20% of adults smoke in this country. And of course things are changing with smoking bans, etc. But the bottom line is over the past few decades, way more than 20% of bar pool players have smoked. In fact smoking has been very much a social-class phenomenon. I'm a university professor, and of the 18 people in my department, only one smokes, and he's from Germany. My wife is an attorney, and pretty much nobody around her smokes, except for a few of the secretaries. I'm not making a point about smoking. I'm making a point about VENDING COMPANIES who have had zero incentive to court demographic groups that have been unlikely to go to smoky bars. That's been a huge missed opportunity.

(3) Pool being done in bars, i.e., in a place that minors can't enter, has been a big impediment for pool, imo. Around here, minors play a lot of golf because there are good public courses. But they don't play pool. And the vending companies and bars have no real incentive to promote the activity to minors.

(4) We sometimes think vending companies/bars are promoting pool to women when they're really not. Behind all the "ladies play free" and "ladies drink free while they play" is actually promotion to men. Drawing women in the door because we know the men will follow IS NOT promoting the sport to women. If we want actually to promote to women, we need to try to understand the environment that would be appealing and comfortable to a group of women co-workers who want to do an activity together.

Many/most Billiard Parlors have been unwitting contributors to the vending company problem. Though this has been less true in the heartland than on the coasts, real players and billiard room proprietors with their 9-foot tables and Simonis cloth and red-circle cueballs look down their noses at "bar pool."
They talk derisively about "league players," and if they bring leagues into their establishments to get the warm bodies, they frequently do it through vending companies on vending-company equipment and thus have a "class B" section of the room. Then the proprietors and the players bemoan the fact 9-foot tables had to be traded out for bar boxes to pay the bills....

So what should we do about it?

Billiard parlors and real pool players need to start respecting 7-foot tables. That doesn't mean get rid of all the 9-foot tables, and that doesn't mean coin-operated tables and mud balls. The reality is the games really are better for newer players on easier equipment. We need to recognize that and embrace it. Furthermore the game played on 7-foot tables is actually much better and more challenging than most players who never touch the 7-foot tables realize.

Notice I'm not calling them "bar tables." We need to get rid of that association. When you get rid of the coin mechanism, put on decent cloth, and use a real cue ball, we need to get in our heads that it is no longer "bar pool." Sometimes we need to give a little in order to get more. And I really think the poolrooms need to suck the leagues out of the bars and out of the grips of the vending companies. I don't mean get rid of bar leagues. Leave them be. But we need to take back the steering wheel on pool leagues. Only then can we really begin the task of opening up this great activity to new demographics.

Events and tours for top players will come in time. Our crisis is at the grassroots level.

 

[Neil]

...............

 

[poolpro]

WOW, what a great post.


I have thought about some of the topics you have discussed. You have clarified a couple. I also like the fact that you offered suggested solutions as well as just pointing out the problems.:thumbup:


I hope this helps to influence the right people to make a bit of a difference for the benefit of us all.


I too, tend to look down on "bar pool". I have compared it as being the same as what mini golf is to golf. Meaning that while there are some similarities, it is not really the same game.



Anything that we can do to help the shape of pool would be a welcome change.

 

[Da Bank]

GREAT post and right on point.

There are some deep seeded problems with pool that are possibly not repairable. The smoking problem is a HUGE one. The criminal or shady aspect of the game is huge.

The game is based upon hustling. Hustling, by nature, is a shady and questionable practice in which the majority of upstanding society wants no part. We are drastically reducing the pool of players we could draw from by harboring a shady culture in which, for the most part, only shady characters want to participate at high levels and especially only characters who actually have what it takes to compete at a high level and have the shady mentality do compete.

Gambling is rampant in golf, yet it is respected and revered as a high class sport and is wildly popular today. Pool should be absolutely NO different, yet it is. I believe that those who are interested in genuine competition and not hustling people out of money should embrace the sport and treat it with the respect it deserves. Even shady characters who play golf uphold a certain standard when they are on the golf course and the same should be true for pool. If we don't uphold a higher standard for our culture, we allow ourselves to be associated with the negative parts... we allow our ourselves to condone less than moral practices like hustling, drug dealing, chain smoking, alcoholism, etc. and it is a detriment to our sport.

 

[Fatboy]

Bar pool and poolrooms are 2 different worlds, bar players dont care about pool-they drink. Most pool players dont think about bar pool much-unless you need a easy score. Two different games, two different groups of people-which are never gonna get together, Thank God. I dont like drunks who forget to shoot for 15 minutes when its their turn or forget to let go of your hand when they shake it. There pool game isnt my pool game.

 

[Hilgendorf]

^^^^^^ amen!

 

[ronhudson]

snip

And I really think the poolrooms need to suck the leagues out of the bars and out of the grips of the vending companies. Only then can we really begin the task of opening up this great activity to new demographics.

If you do that, you will have league play cease in hundreds of locations (bars) and have them only in a few locations (pool halls). Do you seriously think this will be to the benefit of pool?

I assume that when you speak of vending machine operators, you are referring to VNEA. Well, In Oklahoma City, we don't have VNEA, so your point is not made here or in other locations where the same situation exists.

 

[JB Cases]

I disagree.

[and what to do about it.

National pool associations are quick to point out that pool is among the top participation sports, and yet as we all know most of these participants cannot name the top players in their city nor can they name professional players.

Why is this?

Most young, single professionals getting their first jobs out of college don't go out and play pool, even though it has all the makings of a great active social activity that can be done all year round, is relatively inexpensive, and can be a great way to meet people.

Why is this?

Few women play.

Why is this?

I think we have been sucked in and allowed this to happen by allowing VENDING COMPANIES to take over the nurturing, the promotion, the day-to-day operation, and the vision of our sport.

I don't see that vending companies are doing much in the way of nurturing, promoting or even handling the day-to-day operation of "the sport". The sport of billiards is varied and fragmented. Leagues run by vending machine companies are only one part of the landscape. The largest league in the world, the APA, doesn't rely on vending machine companies or their equipment to function. Nor does the BCAPL which is about as big as the VNEA, which is a vending machine company driven league. So the APA and BCAPL combined dwarf the VNEA, thus taking undermining your premise.

So why is that a problem?

Most of that large number of pool participants play on a coin-operated table owned and operated by a vending company, a company that also leases juke boxes, dart systems, and video machines to taverns. Here are four reasons we should have taken control and done something about this a long time ago.

The table might be owned by a vending machine company but that does not mean that the league is owned by them. If those "participants" are not involved in leagues and the bar doesn't have leagues then they don't really count towards the leagues being at fault. Shooting a casual game of pool now and then doesn't make a pool player and shouldn't make me part of a statistic either.

(1) Casual pool players don't see good pool players because good pool players for the most part play in a pool room rather than a bar and scoff at bar tables with slow cloth and heavy cueballs. That makes that hoard of casual participants at pool different from the hoard of casual participants at golf or bowling or tennis or skiing, for examples, who do play along side of good players on the same equipment. The consequence is at these other activities there's a smooth and easy transition between being a casual participant and being a somewhat more serious participant.

Heavy cueballs and slow cloth in establishments that have leagues is fairly rare these days. Most of the bars that have leagues that I have been in seem to be asking for and getting worsted cloth and regulation cueballs.

Again though I point to the fragmented nature of this "sport". Pool has evolved into an activity with many many forms. All those forms inhabit niches with little crossover. Unless you are advocating that we somehow narrow the scope and all agree to play one game, under one rules, on one specified table, the transition you describe from casual to serious player will always be difficult.

(2) Only about 20% of adults smoke in this country. And of course things are changing with smoking bans, etc. But the bottom line is over the past few decades, way more than 20% of bar pool players have smoked. In fact smoking has been very much a social-class phenomenon. I'm a university professor, and of the 18 people in my department, only one smokes, and he's from Germany. My wife is an attorney, and pretty much nobody around her smokes, except for a few of the secretaries. I'm not making a point about smoking. I'm making a point about VENDING COMPANIES who have had zero incentive to court demographic groups that have been unlikely to go to smoky bars. That's been a huge missed opportunity.

Being a non-smoker doesn't mean you don't go to smoky bars. Beyond that a lot of bars put in fairly good filtration systems that make the atmosphere tolerable. However you are probably right that people who don't smoke probably don't enjoy or particularly like to go to places that reek of smoke and cause them to reek of smoke as well. Pool rooms however can also be quite smoky places so if the non-smokers don't want to be pool players because of the smoke then that is not the fault of the vending companies or the leagues

(3) Pool being done in bars, i.e., in a place that minors can't enter, has been a big impediment for pool, imo. Around here, minors play a lot of golf because there are good public courses. But they don't play pool. And the vending companies and bars have no real incentive to promote the activity to minors.

Again, league pool in bars is only part of the pool scene. It's an avenue for adults in adult situations to enjoy pool with other adults. I tend to thin that minors are playing golf because of Tiger Woods. If pool had a superstar then minors would be playing pool and there would be plenty of places for them to play. Places that aren't allowed to serve minors generally aren't too keen on marketing to them. There are however junior leagues which function quite well and are promoted by the VNEA. The VNEA Junior Nationals is always a well attended event. These kids are playing somewhere. And the VNEA is the only vending machine operator league.

(4) We sometimes think vending companies/bars are promoting pool to women when they're really not. Behind all the "ladies play free" and "ladies drink free while they play" is actually promotion to men. Drawing women in the door because we know the men will follow IS NOT promoting the sport to women. If we want actually to promote to women, we need to try to understand the environment that would be appealing and comfortable to a group of women co-workers who want to do an activity together.

Of course things like ladies play free is marketing to men. Women co-workers want to be treated as everyone else is treated. Don't make it special for them and don't make it exclusive to men. The APA has done a great job of bringing women into the game as far as I can see it.

Many/most Billiard Parlors have been unwitting contributors to the vending company problem. Though this has been less true in the heartland than on the coasts, real players and billiard room proprietors with their 9-foot tables and Simonis cloth and red-circle cueballs look down their noses at "bar pool."
They talk derisively about "league players," and if they bring leagues into their establishments to get the warm bodies, they frequently do it through vending companies on vending-company equipment and thus have a "class B" section of the room. Then the proprietors and the players bemoan the fact 9-foot tables had to be traded out for bar boxes to pay the bills....

On the other side of the coin are the room owners who set up part of the room to cater to leagues and LOVE the money that rolls in from them. Those room owners will generally have a minimum of 2 vending company tables and often own the rest of them. Those rooms owners see to it that the equipment is kept up and frequently participate in the leagues as well. I'd say that there are many many more of these types of rooms than those you describe.

So what should we do about it?

Billiard parlors and real pool players need to start respecting 7-foot tables. That doesn't mean get rid of all the 9-foot tables, and that doesn't mean coin-operated tables and mud balls. The reality is the games really are better for newer players on easier equipment. We need to recognize that and embrace it. Furthermore the game played on 7-foot tables is actually much better and more challenging than most players who never touch the 7-foot tables realize.

They do. Real pool players respect the 7 footers. Wannabe players who think that they are real players disrespect them.

Notice I'm not calling them "bar tables." We need to get rid of that association. When you get rid of the coin mechanism, put on decent cloth, and use a real cue ball, we need to get in our heads that it is no longer "bar pool." Sometimes we need to give a little in order to get more. And I really think the poolrooms need to suck the leagues out of the bars and out of the grips of the vending companies. Only then can we really begin the task of opening up this great activity to new demographics.

Again pool leagues are not in the grip of the vending companies or the bars. Most pool rooms around the country have leagues, multiple ones on multiple nights. The pool rooms have long ago realized the value of leagues to their business. Anyone that doesn't is either clueless or they have an "upscale" setup with plenty of casual business. See Fox and Hound for an example.

In fact I think that there needs to be more pool leagues in bars. There needs to be more promotion of pool as a sport in bars. Every league should employ top notch players to do challenge matches, instruct, coach, and be examples of what players can attain as far as mastery of the game goes.

Along with that I'd like to see pool treated as a sport in the community centers, like YMCA's and Boy's' and Girl's Clubs across the country. How often do you come across a pool table in these places that is in horrible condition and no one knows the first thing about "real pool"? If you want pool to be promoted at the grassroots level then get out there and do something about it at the grassroots level instead of blaming the one segment of the game that is keeping the industry and thus the "sport" alive.

Events and tours for top players will come in time. Our crisis is at the grassroots level.[/QUOTE]

I agree with this but not for the reasons you stated.

 

[Colin Colenso]

I'm not as familiar with the US league scene as you guys, but I doubt it is a lot different to what we have in Australia. So let me make a few observations and ask a couple of questions.

Pool is probably the highest TEAM participation sport among people 20+. The reason most play is because it allows them an opportunity to drink with friends during the week. Few are serious about the game itself.

Golf is probably the highest individual participation sport in that age group. People play that moreso for the pleasure of the game I believe.

I doubt there is a big demand for non-drinking pool or any other sports leagues for 20+ years.

I know there are non-drinking leagues for netball, tennis, softball, table tennis, but they aren't as popular as current pool leagues from what I know.

I think one reason pool is not as popular as it could be is because children do not play it competitively growing up. Their schools and over here, the councils provide football grounds, basketball courts etc and other equipment, effectively subsidizing those sports.

It is probably cost prohibitive for pool centers to be built which would allow hundreds of kids to come in and get enough playtime each to remain entertained. Parent's aren't going to want to pay $10-15 per kid per league night.

So perhaps part of the problem is that we are competing with subsidized sports and perhaps another part of the problem is that kids and many adults just don't have enough interest in the actual sport. It's just provides some entertainment while having a few drinks.

Colin

 

[softshot]

#1. people playing pool is not a bad thing

#2..bar leagues are where the vast majority of competent players .. play

#3 to the vast majority of casual players.. the league players ARE the good players.. the pro's have no influence on their lives what so ever..and that is the fault of the Pro's IMO

#4 I agree.. the vending companies have an absolute strangle hold on leagues... I play VNEA..in the Mankato area... there are very few public 9' tables within 70 miles of my home...and the 2 that exist are under pressure to remove them.... or lose the dominant league.. and their bar dollars..

#5 leagues are not a bad thing.. but the companies that control leagues ARE a bad influence on the growth of pool..

#6 bar table 8-ball is a tough game in it's own right.. remember to get the same concentration of balls on a 9 foot table... you need 25 balls..... play position now..... tight cueball control wins on a bar table... and 9' snobs blow that fact off .. and as such get beat by lesser players on tighter equipment..

 

[Rocket354]

I don't think bar leagues are what's holding pool back. It gives people who like that atmosphere a chance to play. What's holding pool back is that often that's the only atmosphere in which to play pool. And that's not the fault of bar leagues.

I agree that pool needs to be made available to a wider demographic. There needs to be kid-friendly places, non-smoker-friendly places, and also more places that play by real, non-oppressive rules.

That last point I think needs to be focused on more. Most rulebooks, be it BCA, APA, WPA, whatever have for the most part logical rules, that result in a fun game. "Bar rules" pool, however, is pure torture, and I think one of the largest hindrances to pool growth and interest amongst adults.

You lose if you scratch on the break. No foul if you hit your opponents ball first or fail to hit a rail, or just fail to hit anything. Oops, your ball scraped a rail on it's way into the pocket and you didn't call that before-hand? My shot. Oh, it was the 8ball? You LOSE.

There are numerous other examples of silly "bar rules" that don't enhance the game but simply impede people's enjoyment of the game. And those are the rules that most casual players know and play by.

I coach/teach pool to kids in my spare time at a local boys and girls club. At a recent tournament for 12-15yr olds one 13-yr old protege of mine runs the last 5 of his balls then calls the 8 in the corner down the rail. He hits it perfectly so it doesn't touch the rail less than an inch away until of course hits the inside rail of the pocket before going in, as it must for that type of shot. The refs, aka staff members, then want to say he loses the game because he didn't call the rail. Boy did I put an end to that nonsense, but if I weren't there that would have been a loss, and I can only imagine the kind of conditions lots of kids are learning pool. I know if I were a kid and I lost the game because of a shot like that I'd never pick up a cue again...

So yeah my steps for helping out pool's popularity:

1) Get more kids involved in a positive environment with people who know the rules

2) Somehow change "bar rules" pool so the rules are less oppressive and arcane to the newbie/casual player

3) Have more smoke-free places to play pool

 

[manwon]

and what to do about it.

National pool associations are quick to point out that pool is among the top participation sports, and yet as we all know most of these participants cannot name the top players in their city nor can they name professional players.

Why is this?

Most young, single professionals getting their first jobs out of college don't go out and play pool, even though it has all the makings of a great active social activity that can be done all year round, is relatively inexpensive, and can be a great way to meet people.

Why is this?

Few women play.

Why is this?

I think we have been sucked in and allowed this to happen by allowing VENDING COMPANIES to take over the nurturing, the promotion, the day-to-day operation, and the vision of our sport.

So why is that a problem?

Most of that large number of pool participants play on a coin-operated table owned and operated by a vending company, a company that also leases juke boxes, dart systems, and video machines to taverns. Here are four reasons we should have taken control and done something about this a long time ago.

(1) Casual pool players don't see good pool players because good pool players for the most part play in a pool room rather than a bar and scoff at bar tables with slow cloth and heavy cueballs. That makes that hoard of casual participants at pool different from the hoard of casual participants at golf or bowling or tennis or skiing, for examples, who do play along side of good players on the same equipment. The consequence is at these other activities there's a smooth and easy transition between being a casual participant and being a somewhat more serious participant.

(2) Only about 20% of adults smoke in this country. And of course things are changing with smoking bans, etc. But the bottom line is over the past few decades, way more than 20% of bar pool players have smoked. In fact smoking has been very much a social-class phenomenon. I'm a university professor, and of the 18 people in my department, only one smokes, and he's from Germany. My wife is an attorney, and pretty much nobody around her smokes, except for a few of the secretaries. I'm not making a point about smoking. I'm making a point about VENDING COMPANIES who have had zero incentive to court demographic groups that have been unlikely to go to smoky bars. That's been a huge missed opportunity.

(3) Pool being done in bars, i.e., in a place that minors can't enter, has been a big impediment for pool, imo. Around here, minors play a lot of golf because there are good public courses. But they don't play pool. And the vending companies and bars have no real incentive to promote the activity to minors.

(4) We sometimes think vending companies/bars are promoting pool to women when they're really not. Behind all the "ladies play free" and "ladies drink free while they play" is actually promotion to men. Drawing women in the door because we know the men will follow IS NOT promoting the sport to women. If we want actually to promote to women, we need to try to understand the environment that would be appealing and comfortable to a group of women co-workers who want to do an activity together.

Many/most Billiard Parlors have been unwitting contributors to the vending company problem. Though this has been less true in the heartland than on the coasts, real players and billiard room proprietors with their 9-foot tables and Simonis cloth and red-circle cueballs look down their noses at "bar pool."
They talk derisively about "league players," and if they bring leagues into their establishments to get the warm bodies, they frequently do it through vending companies on vending-company equipment and thus have a "class B" section of the room. Then the proprietors and the players bemoan the fact 9-foot tables had to be traded out for bar boxes to pay the bills....

So what should we do about it?

Billiard parlors and real pool players need to start respecting 7-foot tables. That doesn't mean get rid of all the 9-foot tables, and that doesn't mean coin-operated tables and mud balls. The reality is the games really are better for newer players on easier equipment. We need to recognize that and embrace it. Furthermore the game played on 7-foot tables is actually much better and more challenging than most players who never touch the 7-foot tables realize.

Notice I'm not calling them "bar tables." We need to get rid of that association. When you get rid of the coin mechanism, put on decent cloth, and use a real cue ball, we need to get in our heads that it is no longer "bar pool." Sometimes we need to give a little in order to get more. And I really think the poolrooms need to suck the leagues out of the bars and out of the grips of the vending companies. Only then can we really begin the task of opening up this great activity to new demographics.

Events and tours for top players will come in time. Our crisis is at the grassroots level.

I think we have been sucked in and allowed this to happen by allowing VENDING COMPANIES to take over the nurturing, the promotion, the day-to-day operation, and the vision of our sport.

Everything is directly do to the fact that pool has no governing body like it had in days past. In the past Bars, Barber Shops, and even general stores had pool and billiard tables. The difference then and now is that Pool / billiards was promoted like tennis and golf which both still have governing bodies. These governing bodies were instrumental in promotion of our sport to the next generation, through youth organizations such as the YMCA and other youth organizations. Those days ended when Brunswick changed it's support to bowling in the in the 1960's, in place of pool. The end of this sponsorship also destroyed organizations such as the BCA which where funded by Brunswick and it left the professional players Nation wide into unemployment. This is what brought about the shift that has caused pool to become what it is today. While organizations have come and gone since Brunswick none have had the funding and none have had as much at stake, or truly supported our sport.

The way to correct the problems is to start with our young, and that is the only place to begin. Retailers, Wholesalers, and everyone in the industry must support the youth of our Nation at all costs. If this means, suppling equipment and equipment maintenance to youth organizations for free so be it, this is a small price to pay, and the dividends will pay us back in the long run.

I am a room owner, billiards retailer, and I have a full repair / cue building shop in my pool room. I have donated equipment to the local YMCA, and I support any youth organization any way I can with what I have, this may be free table time, free tips, or free equipment to charitable organizations and I have had a number of youth tournaments with no entry fee and free gifts for 1st through 6th place. Now none of the local organizations have supported this, in fact it is almost impossible to get any of the pool league operators involved even though they have children who love to play. I am not complaining and I am also not going to stop trying, but it is frustrating. When I hear people complain about the state of pool in this country all I can do is shake my head, because talk is cheap, but only action will correct these problems.

Today the kids have more money than anytime I have ever seen, kids really love pool if it is promoted to them. They will buy cues, cases, and spend a great deal money on table time, and all you have to do is take an interest when you see that kid that is trying to learn. Many people do not want to deal with the under aged because they think that they will have to many problems, and this can be the case, bit doesn't have to be. Many room owners look at the kids and are afraid because of the way they dress or the way they look. However, it seems we have forgotten that we also dressed differently and looked a little different 30 years ago, however we turned out OK when all was said and done. If you make rules, insure your rules are understood, and enforce them fairly, while treating everyone with respect you will have no problems long term. I have proved this to the city where my room is located and to the neighborhood surrounding my room.


Many/most Billiard Parlors have been unwitting contributors to the vending company problem. Though this has been less true in the heartland than on the coasts, real players and billiard room proprietors with their 9-foot tables and Simonis cloth and red-circle cueballs look down their noses at "bar pool."
They talk derisively about "league players," and if they bring leagues into their establishments to get the warm bodies, they frequently do it through vending companies on vending-company equipment and thus have a "class B" section of the room. Then the proprietors and the players bemoan the fact 9-foot tables had to be traded out for bar boxes to pay the bills....

This is not the case in Washington state as a whole, in fact many of the league players also are regulars in the pool rooms. The room owners here understand how important leagues are and most of the local rooms support the leagues and the league operators. I have 6 APA teams and 7 BCA teams playing out of my Pool Room, and these numbers are growing every session. I do not have any Bar box tables in my room for league play, only 8ft tables, which are covered with Simonis 860 and well maintained. These tables are used by both the BCA and the APA teams, however, depending upon the BCA teams playing some choose to use 9ft tables for league play which I also support. I generally give my teams one table for play and another to practice upon, or they can play their matches using both tables. I do not charge any table time unless they rent an addition table and then I give them a discount. Many would say how do you make any money, and all I can do is laugh.I make money from the sale of beer, cues, cases and other accessories, along with repairs which are done while the players are playing league, and it is surprising how much can be made.

The key to room operation is diversity, the more you offer the more niches you will open up for your business. Pool / Billiards today is not like anytime in the past, and I believe that in the future unless things change things will become even more diversified. The people I see who are going to feel the real pinch, are the pool room owners who do not see the changes and who can't adapt to them and the retailers. I think the retailers who do not rent tables and only have a store front are going to have a number of problems if the pool room owners like myself start competing with them. I have seen retailers who have been in the business locally for more than 20 years reduce or do away with many of the items and brands they use to carry because of my impact on the local market and the service I provide. I have more access to the average player then the Big Retailers, I also give a 20% discount off retail on Merchandise to league players, and I give much better service than others are willing to provide. All these things support pool, and dapting to the changes that come is part of business that all business owners face and must over come.

I have rambled on for long enough, I hope I have added some useful information for all, and I truly hope it helps some one out there make things better in their area.

Take Care.

 

[JB Cases]

I don't think bar leagues are what's holding pool back. It gives people who like that atmosphere a chance to play. What's holding pool back is that often that's the atmosphere in which to play pool. And that's not the fault of bar leagues.

I agree that pool needs to be made available to a wider demographic. There needs to be kid-friendly places, non-smoker-friendly places, and also more places that play by real, non-oppressive rules.

That last point I think needs to be focused on more. Most rulebooks, be it BCA, APA, WPA, whatever have for the most part logical rules, that result in a fun game. "Bar rules" pool, however, is pure torture, and I think one of the largest hindrances to pool growth and interest amongst adults.

You lose if you scratch on the break. No foul if you hit your opponents ball first or fail to hit a rail, or just fail to hit anything. Oops, your ball scraped a rail on it's way into the pocket and you didn't call that before-hand? My shot. Oh, it was the 8ball? You LOSE.

There are numerous other examples of silly "bar rules" that don't enhance the game but simply impede people's enjoyment of the game. And those are the rules that most casual players know and play by.

I coach/teach pool to kids in my spare time at a local boys and girls club. At a recent tournament for 12-15yr olds one 13-yr old protege of mine runs the last 5 of his balls then calls the 8 in the corner down the rail. He hits it perfectly so it doesn't touch the rail less than an inch away until of course hits the inside rail of the pocket before going in, as it must for that type of shot. The refs, aka staff members, then want to say he loses the game because he didn't call the rail. Boy did I put an end to that nonsense, but if I weren't there that would have been a loss, and I can only imagine the kind of conditions lots of kids are learning pool. I know if I were a kid and I lost the game because of a shot like that I'd never pick up a cue again...

So yeah my steps for helping out pool's popularity:

1) Get more kids involved in a positive environment with people who know the rules

2) Somehow change "bar rules" pool so the rules are less oppressive and arcane to the newbie/casual player

3) Have more smoke-free places to play pool

Your post is spot on.

My question for the Billiard Congress of America is how many rule books have they sent out to Boys and Girls Clubs and YMCAs and VFWs and the like across America?

My question for the APA - VNEA - TAP - and BCAPL is the same? What have you done to insure that pool is played under correct rules in your community?

You see I would have thought that being in constant contact with B&G Clubs and similar community centers would have been something that the BCA was already doing. Furnishing them with guides on how to properly conduct the sport. Maybe a newsletter that highlights the sport.

What are we paying for as members of the BCA?

My colleague Matt Carter of Sterling Gaming was recently appointed to the BCA marketing committee. I will bring this thread to his attention.

It is a grassroots problem and it does start with erasing arcane and ambiguous rules.

 

[mikepage]

If you do that, you will have league play cease in hundreds of locations (bars) and have them only in a few locations (pool halls). Do you seriously think this will be to the benefit of pool?

I should clarify. I don't mean literally take the existing bar players out of the bars. Leave them alone. Let bar pool flourish. That's fine. What I mean is the billiard parlor world should own up to the responsibility of creating and organizing and running their own leagues out of the poolroom in a much bigger way. Then if you offer a clean, safe environment, this, imo, is the best avenue to grow the sport.

I assume that when you speak of vending machine operators, you are referring to VNEA. Well, In Oklahoma City, we don't have VNEA, so your point is not made here or in other locations where the same situation exists.

I was thinking of the local league operators, who at least here are employed by the local vending companies.

 

[mikepage]

I don't think bar leagues are what's holding pool back. It gives people who like that atmosphere a chance to play. What's holding pool back is that often that's the only atmosphere in which to play pool. And that's not the fault of bar leagues.

I agree with this. The "bar leagues" are promoting to potential bar league players--one demographic. They're doing what they should do.

OUR problem is that we've become complacent about forming, promoting, and operating different leagues that could appeal to a broader demographic because we think things like league play is a different world, leagues are already done by someone else. It's like we've allowed someone else to drive our best recruiting vehicle.

[...]

So yeah my steps for helping out pool's popularity:

1) Get more kids involved in a positive environment with people who know the rules

2) Somehow change "bar rules" pool so the rules are less oppressive and arcane to the newbie/casual player

3) Have more smoke-free places to play pool

I agree with these. #3 is taking care of itself. But we can't just be the old smoky poolroom now without smoke. We need to take advantage of the change and find ways to reinvent ourselves.

As for #1, I stopped in at Two Stooges in Minneapolis this past May at 11:00 am on a Tuesday morning (20,000+ sf, 50 tables or so) and found a school bus in front. Sure enough 30 15-16 year olds piled out and went in. When I asked the manager about it, he said he went to each of the area schools and talked to the activities director/phys ed teachers, etc. He now has TWELVE ares schools using his facility. This particular group came for FOURTH PERIOD, i.e., they had a total of 52 minutes: 4 to get to the bus, 6 on the bus, 30 minutes playing pool and return. Some groups did a whole morning there as kind of a fun field trip. They could not have done this if Minnesota hadn't gone nonsmoking last October.

 

[BRKNRUN]

ameature vs professional "perception"

Tennis is the only sport that uses the same equipment set up..Even Bowling is different in that the lanes are oiled different than you will see in your standard Bowling Alley and I belive the pins may even be a bit heavier.

Basically (As I see it) the "ameature" or social pool player sees the 9' table and relates that to playing on the "professional" level table. The bar box relates to the ameature level table. I believe that is a "social perception" amongst that vast majority of pool players that don't follow professional pool or could name a professional player.

Even Golf has different levels of courses...The vast majority of players will play from the "up" tees versus the very back tees. I work at a relativly short Golf Course only 7k from the tips and still almost 90% of the daily play tees off from the 1-Up tees.....The perception is that the back tees are the "pro" tees....The fact of the matter is the course I work at even from the tips would be considered a "Bar Box" for Tiger Woods.

I would actually throw Tennis out of the mix since you are playing more against your opponent than you are the equipment.

In Bowling, Golf or Pool you are playing more against the equipment and much less (in comparison) against your opponent.

 

[mikepage]

[...] There are however junior leagues which function quite well and are promoted by the VNEA. The VNEA Junior Nationals is always a well attended event. These kids are playing somewhere. And the VNEA is the only vending machine operator league.

I've been to VNEA junior nationals as a parent John. As as much as I respect their efforts and appreciate that they do it, there may be more participation of kids playing SOCCER in FARGO than there are kids playing competitive pool in a three-state area around me.

Furthermore some of the "juniors" at VNEA junior nationals have two kids and a mortgage. Age 21 the cutoff for "junior league?" Really? This is another reflection of the ties of pool leagues to bars.

[...] The APA has done a great job of bringing women into the game as far as I can see it.

And I applaud that. Pool room owners need to take on some of the mindset that works for the APA. They need to partner more with organizations like the APA, and they need to take ownership and do more themselves in this regard.

On the other side of the coin are the room owners who set up part of the room to cater to leagues and LOVE the money that rolls in from them. Those room owners will generally have a minimum of 2 vending company tables and often own the rest of them. Those rooms owners see to it that the equipment is kept up and frequently participate in the leagues as well. I'd say that there are many many more of these types of rooms than those you describe.

Yes there are becoming more of these rooms. And that's a good thing.

[...]
[...]

In fact I think that there needs to be more pool leagues in bars. There needs to be more promotion of pool as a sport in bars. Every league should employ top notch players to do challenge matches, instruct, coach, and be examples of what players can attain as far as mastery of the game goes.

I'm fine for having more leagues in bars. But it should be the bars following the lead of the billiard parlors, not the billiard parlors following the lead of the bars. I played as a sub last year in a bar league. I'd have an opponent who could make long shots, fire in banks, draw and follow the cueball who would systematically run six balls with a 7th absolutely buried at the foot of the table in my balls. What's he gonna do? I'm thinking... Well he ran six balls and then stood up and gazed at the buried one with a what am I gonna do? look. He just has no exposure to people who understand tha basic concepts of the game.

[...] If you want pool to be promoted at the grassroots level then get out there and do something about it at the grassroots level instead of blaming the one segment of the game that is keeping the industry and thus the "sport" alive.

Three comments John.

First I'm not blaming that one segment of the industry. That segment is doing what it makes sense for that segment to do. I'm blaming the rest of us.

Second, I sense some indignation, like who am I sitting on my butt to complain about anything. John I've not been in this industry, but I've organized and run a straight pool league for a couple years. I've organized and run monthly tournaments for a couple years. I've put together a dozen or so youtube videos on pool topics. I worked out the math for a new a rating system and published it in billiard digest, and I've tried to contribute positively to these boards over the years.

Third, I very much am doing something LITERALLY at the GRASS ROOTS level

http://myweb.cableone.net/fargopage/dirt.JPG

 

[Scott Lee]

Mike...Your basic problem is that you're somewhat misinformed. First, you have your perspective of a very small market segment, only in your region...which simply does not reflect what happens nationwide. The truth is that all the organized bar leagues together do not make up 10% of the people who regularly play pool in bars. Until you find a way to attract the attention of the other 90% (we're talking about the 4,000,000 'regular players'...defined as people who play at least once a week), you have no prayer to accomplish the lofty goals you describe.

Second, there are at least 10x as many people who go to the bar just to drink, gamble, or watch sports on tv, than go there to play pool. This country is 'gamble crazy' as evidenced by the proliferation of hundreds of casinos, and the hundreds of millions of lottery tickets sold every day. Find a way to make pool attractive to those people, and you have a chance.

Third, the reality is that there are at least 10x as many bar pool tables owned by bar owners, than those owned (and serviced) by vending companies. If what you said was true, the VNEA would be 4x the size of the APA. VNEA has had about the same number of 'league players' for the past 20 years, while other leagues have flourished and grown by leaps and bounds.

I agree that finding a way to get youth actively involved with pool (outside of gambling), is fundamental in improving the overall lot and perspective of pool in America. Getting our youth involved through YMCAs, Boys & Girls Clubs, and high school programs is a great start...but it needs nationwide implementation. IMO, a more fundamental problem lies with the bar league players themselves. 85% of them have children of their own, yet make no attempt to expose them to pool's positive points (probably because they don't know them themselves), or bring them into the game. The BCA totally failed at creating youth programs. As much as I admire Mark Griffin, and what he wants to do for pool, I don't see any input regarding youth players, leagues and/or tournaments. 15 years ago, I went to Terry Bell and Larry Hubbart, with an organized plan to create kid's leagues within the APA. They had ZERO interest, and turned me down flat.

While I don't have all the answers, blaming the vending companies, for the problems within bar league pool, is a bit like blaming McDonalds and Burger King for the obesity problem in America.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

 

[BRKNRUN]

Mike...Your basic problem is that you're somewhat misinformed. First, you have your perspective of a very small market segment, only in your region...which simply does not reflect what happens nationwide. The truth is that all the organized bar leagues together do not make up 10% of the people who regularly play pool in bars. Until you find a way to attract the attention of the other 90% (we're talking about the 4,000,000 'regular players'...defined as people who play at least once a week), you have no prayer to accomplish the lofty goals you describe.

Second, there are at least 10x as many people who go to the bar just to drink, gamble, or watch sports on tv, than go there to play pool. This country is 'gamble crazy' as evidenced by the proliferation of hundreds of casinos, and the hundreds of millions of lottery tickets sold every day. Find a way to make pool attractive to those people, and you have a chance.

Third, the reality is that there are at least 10x as many bar pool tables owned by bar owners, than those owned (and serviced) by vending companies. If what you said was true, the VNEA would be 4x the size of the APA. VNEA has had about the same number of 'league players' for the past 20 years, while other leagues have flourished and grown by leaps and bounds.

I agree that finding a way to get youth actively involved with pool (outside of gambling), is fundamental in improving the overall lot and perspective of pool in America. Getting our youth involved through YMCAs, Boys & Girls Clubs, and high school programs is a great start...but it needs nationwide implementation. IMO, a more fundamental problem lies with the bar league players themselves. 85% of them have children of their own, yet make no attempt to expose them to pool's positive points (probably because they don't know them themselves), or bring them into the game. The BCA totally failed at creating youth programs. As much as I admire Mark Griffin, and what he wants to do for pool, I don't see any input regarding youth players, leagues and/or tournaments. 15 years ago, I went to Terry Bell and Larry Hubbart, with an organized plan to create kid's leagues within the APA. They had ZERO interest, and turned me down flat.

While I don't have all the answers, blaming the vending companies, for the problems within bar league pool, is a bit like blaming McDonalds and Burger King for the obesity problem in America.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

I totally agree that the youth aspect will grow the future of pool. I have always thoght that a High Scool program would be a great boost for the future of pool.

However there is a bit of a chicken and egg problem......If there is not PRO tour (aka: future money to be made) the High School kids will continue to play sports that have a potential money future....I think that "some" kids will just love pool and play but the majority will still look for the money sports.

I kind of wonder if High Scool Wrestling is getting a boom of participation since the UFC is now showing the potential to make some future cash....I am currently a fairly mellow out of shape overweight 40 year old that chose not to wrestle in high scoool because of other sports, but even though I was small, I was not afraid to scrap with anyone that was near my size......Had the UFC been (back then) what it is today...I may have chosen to wrestle in High Scool.

Had there been a professional Pool tour that was anywhere near the popularity of Golf (and a high school pool program) I would have probably attempted to play pool instead of Golf....

Heck....even a College Pool Program that provides a opportunity for a Pool College Scholarship would be a start.

 

[incidentslip]

Great post Mike. I live up in Canada, in a town of about 115K people. Once upon a time we had tons of pool rooms, mostly snooker(canad-jun eh!!!lol), slowly they all closed. They were all strictly poolrooms. This gave way to the post COM upscale type rooms of which three emerged, and for about 15 years were healthy. We've also had 2 barbox leagues during that time, sharing players from the upscales. No one here ever organized leagues on the big tables, although there were some great weekly tournaments on the big tables. Slowly, the upscales are removing most of the big tables and devoting more space to the resturant/bar aspects of their businesses because of high rent and operating costs, while keeping or adding more barboxes because it frees up more space for customer seating. This is a sad thing, but most of these establishments are child friendly because we have a no-smoking law in our city. If VENA or BCA(the two charters in our town) offered a youth program, maybe there could be more interest. The reality here, in my town is, one $8.00 an hour pool table = 4 $50.00 an hour food/drink tables. Around here it's not the vending machine companies that are to blame, they do a great job of running their respective leagues and keep their tables in reasonably good shape, it's the high operating costs of the establishments that tried to be upscale halls. We do have more and more good young talent coming into the leagues though, which is a good thing. Manwan...nicely put as well...wish you were up here!!!