Frozen balls in One Pocket

Franky

Franky

woman I said NO!!!
Silver Member
I'd like some experienced one pocket players to weigh in on this if possible. The rules that I've read and videos that I've seen sometimes seem to contradict one another on this one point. The situation is a frozen object ball and what determines a legal shot when playing the cueball directly into the frozen object ball.

I have had very good, respected players tell me that if an object ball is frozen, that you hit it first, you have to drive a ball to some other rail. I.e. having the cueball hit that same rail does NOT count as a legal stroke.

In the following diagram, there is pretty much universal agreement that shot A is a foul. What is not clear to me is if the other two shot are fouls. I've always thought that they were. In fact I know that I've heard commentators talk about the type of situation at the top of the table (with the dot cueball in this diagram) hinge upon one player getting the object ball to freeze to the cushion...and thereby forcing the other player to greatly alter the situation.

So, are all these shots fouls or is only shot A a foul?

CueTable Help

 
DustyLeigh said:
A legal shot is when the cue ball strikes another ball and then the cue ball strikes a rail. Doesn't matter if it is the same rail.

So, in your example, only 'A' is a foul.
Click to expand...

You are correct Dusty, it certainly doesn't matter if the cue ball hits the rail the ballis frozen too or if the ball hits a different rail than it was frozen too.

Take Care
 
DustyLeigh said:
A legal shot is when the cue ball strikes another ball and then the cue ball strikes a rail. Doesn't matter if it is the same rail.

So, in your example, only 'A' is a foul.
Click to expand...


I concur !!!!!!!!! :smile:
 
DustyLeigh said:
A legal shot is when the cue ball strikes another ball and then the cue ball strikes a rail. Doesn't matter if it is the same rail.

So, in your example, only 'A' is a foul.
Click to expand...

I agree with the exception of when the CB and OB are both frozen to the same rail.

Steve
 
sde said:
I agree with the exception of when the CB and OB are both frozen to the same rail.

Steve
Click to expand...
Everything everyone has said is correct. However the same rules apply to all other games and not just in one pocket. In snooker it's not a foul to hit the rail first and then the object object ball.
 
sde said:
I agree with the exception of when the CB and OB are both frozen to the same rail.

Steve
Click to expand...

Which seems to be the situation with the dotted cue ball. If that's the setup, then that's a foul too.

By the way, it's possible for shot A to become legal if the object ball gets back to the same rail. That can happen if it caroms off another ball, like this:

CueTable Help



pj
chgo
 
Franky said:
So, are all these shots fouls or is only shot A a foul?
Click to expand...

Franky, just a little more info for you. The rule is that after the cue ball contacts with a legal object ball, ANY ball on the table must contact a rail to which it was not already frozen. It doesn't have to be the cue ball or the object ball which was struck. Another important point though; In your drawing, you show the cue hitting the one ball. If for example the cue ball stops as you have shown it and the one ball continues on and strikes the two ball, it is still a foul if the two ball was also frozen to the rail. If the two ball is not frozen and the one ball hits it and drives it to the rail, then it is a legal shot.
 
dabarbr said:
Everything everyone has said is correct. However the same rules apply to all other games and not just in one pocket. In snooker it's not a foul to hit the rail first and then the object object ball.
Click to expand...
Right, frozen ball rules are basically the same in One Pocket as they are in the standard general rules. Like you said, Snooker is an exception, and so is Golf (at least in some variations).

At OnePocket.org several years ago we put together what for now seem to be pretty well accepted as the definitive rules for One Pocket. They are much more thorough than the BCA rules, and in fact they "correct" one or two aspects of the BCA rules that conflict with standard historical One Pocket accepted practice. I believe veteran tournament director Scott Smith uses our rules -- which is a good endorsement in my book!

Our complete official rules are here:
One Pocket Rules
 
yeppers, everyone has already nailed it.


I like to simplify it and say it this way- " when dealing with balls frozen to a cushion, it is not enough to merely cause that ball to rebound from that rail. All other rules are still in effect".

In other words that frozen rail contact does not count, you must drive that ball to another rail or drive the cue ball ( or other ball) to a rail.
 
Patrick Johnson said:
Which seems to be the situation with the dotted cue ball. If that's the setup, then that's a foul too.

By the way, it's possible for shot A to become legal if the object ball gets back to the same rail. That can happen if it caroms off another ball, like this:

CueTable Help



pj
chgo
Click to expand...

Actually that shot would not be legal; the object ball cannot strike the same rail, it must be a different rail than the one to which it was frozen.
 
ronhudson said:
Actually that shot would not be legal; the object ball cannot strike the same rail, it must be a different rail than the one to which it was frozen.
Click to expand...
Sure it is -- legal, that is:

This is from the BCA General Rules, 3.38 (d)
A ball which is touching a cushion at the start of a shot and then is forced into a cushion attached to the same rail is not considered to have been driven to that cushion unless it leaves the cushion, contacts another ball, and then contacts the cushion again.
Click to expand...
(I added the color highlight)
 
Yep, that's right. The qualifier that the object ball can leave a rail, hit another ball and come back to the rail is on down in that rule section and I forgot about it.
 
ronhudson said:
Yep, that's right. The qualifier that the object ball can leave a rail, hit another ball and come back to the rail is on down in that rule section and I forgot about it.
Click to expand...

I mentioned it because I know it's a historically confusing part of the rule. I think Bob might have just clarified it in the new rules.

pj
chgo
 
... In snooker it's not a foul to hit the rail first and then the object ball.
Click to expand...
At snooker, no cushion contact is required on any shot. If you are close to the pack, and need to hit a red, you can just roll up to the pack and barely contact a red.
 
Rusty C said:
I wonder why it's a rule anyway.The hole frozen ball rule is stupid,all it does is cause arguments.
Click to expand...

It's a rule because it avoids arguments. The arguments happen when there's no rule.

pj
chgo
 
1pocket said:
Right, frozen ball rules are basically the same in One Pocket as they are in the standard general rules. Like you said, Snooker is an exception, and so is Golf (at least in some variations).

At OnePocket.org several years ago we put together what for now seem to be pretty well accepted as the definitive rules for One Pocket. They are much more thorough than the BCA rules, and in fact they "correct" one or two aspects of the BCA rules that conflict with standard historical One Pocket accepted practice. I believe veteran tournament director Scott Smith uses our rules -- which is a good endorsement in my book!

Our complete official rules are here:
One Pocket Rules
Click to expand...
None of the rules that I have read address this situation. Suppose the one ball and the cue are in the middle of the table and the two ball is frozen to the rail. The cue strikes the one which then is driven into the two which was called frozen. I did see a tour. dir. rule once that since the two ball was frozen it became part of the rail by rule, so the shot was legal. Have never seen a written rule however. :confused:
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top